Brian,?

?

While it's not my preferred method, I have had customers request a tube frame that goes above the bimini and then put rigid panels outboard of the split backstays. I did an installation that also had a panel in between the backstays, but to Allison's point. you lose your viewing window. Everything is a compromise. My panels, which go fore and aft, bridge over the inner bimini support, which is not necessarily desirable, but at this point, panels are the cheapest part of the install and I'm happy to replace. I also have a panel on my dodger, but I keep it on it's own charge controller to mitigate shading impacts.?

A few things to note for you on your projects.?

?- I'm an ARCO dealer, if you're going that route, please let me know.?

?- I can also source pretty much everything you're looking for on this kind of project, including Victron stuff.

?- The installation that I'm doing on split backstays this winter will have 4x100watt panels. none will land directly on a frame member. But the bimini is being redesigned. Happy to share that design with you.?

?

Best of luck! Let me know how it comes out.?

?

Jordan?
S402-047

Formerly S36-087

?

Lake Michigan

#102584

开云体育

Jordan you seem to be a pretty good guy, but historically we “marine professionals” that are Sabre owners do not solicit business in any way. ?It is a very fine line but I suggest you be mindful of this as it has always been a bit offensive to the owners, and that includes me as an owner!

Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
PastedGraphic-1.tiff

Show quoted text

On Feb 28, 2025, at 11:34?AM, Jordan via groups.io <jordan.permoda@...> wrote:

Brian,?

?

While it's not my preferred method, I have had customers request a tube frame that goes above the bimini and then put rigid panels outboard of the split backstays. I did an installation that also had a panel in between the backstays, but to Allison's point. you lose your viewing window. Everything is a compromise. My panels, which go fore and aft, bridge over the inner bimini support, which is not necessarily desirable, but at this point, panels are the cheapest part of the install and I'm happy to replace. I also have a panel on my dodger, but I keep it on it's own charge controller to mitigate shading impacts.?

A few things to note for you on your projects.?

?- I'm an ARCO dealer, if you're going that route, please let me know.?

?- I can also source pretty much everything you're looking for on this kind of project, including Victron stuff.

?- The installation that I'm doing on split backstays this winter will have 4x100watt panels. none will land directly on a frame member. But the bimini is being redesigned. Happy to share that design with you.?

?

Best of luck! Let me know how it comes out.?

?

Jordan?
S402-047

Formerly S36-087

?

Lake Michigan

--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest

#102585

开云体育

Everybody does it a bit differently. When we put solar on our 38 with split backstay I build rails out of aluminum U stock and also placed an internal L shape frame ?inside the solar panel frame, doubling it up sort to speak, to give all a more ridged structure to resist the flex of the Bimini frame. I also was wanting to hedge against high winds. It did not add much weight being aluminum. The panels are 125 watt. I decided against the 150 watts because I did not want them coming far enough forward that they could possibly catch a wayward reefing line or a boom that slipped a little too low. I also eventually put a 125 watt panel on the davits. Obviously ridged panels are heaver than flexible panels and have a higher profile but at the time I felt that bang for the buck this is the way I wanted to go. It’s been about six years and so far so good. Ive been very happy with the setup.

Show quoted text

On Feb 28, 2025, at 10:38?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:

My main winter project is upgrading the electrical charging system: Part 1 of new alternator / regulator / monitoring is underway. ?Part 2 is adding solar; am on a mooring so shore power charging is limited, and for cruising. ?

?

Has anyone with a split backstay been able to add solar panels to their bimini? ?My bimini has a forward, mid and aft support frame, and several sources advise against having a panel lay fore / aft across a frame member as it creates a flex point which will break down the panel. ?I possibly could fit several 50W panels [presumably wired at least in part in series] but that seems inefficient and higher cost. ??

?

Anyone come up with a solution for bimini solar? ?The dodger is a secondary possibility, but there is more shading, especially when sailing. ?And the wiring access would be more complicated. ?

?

In the archives Jordan mentions having to redesign the bimini frame to get this to work, but that is not something I want to do. ?

?

TIA

Brian

Escapade ?S426

CT / LIS ?

?

?

?

Has anyone with a split backstay?

--
Randy Drummond
Dazzle S38 mk2 206
Miami

#102586

I find it challenging to understand why its such an issue when an owner can help another owner with a project offer sound advice based on their expertise.

I don't think anyone of us follow this thread as a marketing tool but to learn from each other.? And to work with each other if it is favorable to both parties.

?

I met Jordan prior as I inquired about the Sabre 38 that they had for sale.? He was super helpful.

?

As a result, I learned about his part time obsession with sailing and electronics/electrical equipment.? We have had many phone conversations on many topics.

I think he may just be a bigger sailing/techie geek than I am.? Refreshing actually!

?

I have been working on my refit for a year now and many on this thread have been super helpful with private emails, pictures of installs, good sound advice etc.

?

Jordan has been a key part of my new electronics choices including volunteering to draw up circuits, a list of equipment I should consider (need) all based on his experience.

He has always made it clear that he would not take any offense (with an "s") if I decided not to work with him.

This is far more valuable than internet searches, west marine visits etc.? I think we should not dismiss the expertise right in front of us because we are worried about "soliciting"

?

From a big picture stand point, there are a handful of people who frequent this site for advice.? Let's offer it to each other and not take offence that one of us might be able to help.

I am sure there are many in this crowd who have some awesome advice to share.? (Stephanie - you have been a great motivator!)

?

Maybe someday I may need a broker, divorce lawyer, electronics expert, or a secret trick to some thingymajig etc.

Perhaps I may be able to find one with someone that I have exchanged conversations with, built some trust and have confidence in because they are in my circle.

?

Blatant "Sales and Marketing" should not be accepted; I agree.? This is not meant to be that in any way.? But, let's be more open minded about reaching out to our fellow sailors and seek advice.

We always have the prerogative to make our own decisions.? We can take it or leave it.

?

Tim R

38MK II in refit

#102587

Randy,

?

How did you end up with a split back stay on a 38 MKII?

I have hull 198 with a single back stay and I would love to set it up with a split back stay.

?

Do you have pictures?? was your transom modified to fit the split?

?

Tim R

38MKII in refit

#102588

开云体育

Tim,

These sentences step on the line between sharing knowledge and marketing your services:

"I have had customers request a tube frame that goes….”

"- I'm an ARCO dealer, if you're going that route, please let me know.?“

"?I can also source pretty much everything you're looking for on this kind of project, including Victron stuff.”

“The installation that I'm doing on split backstays this winter will have 4x100watt panels. none will land directly on a frame member.?“

Dave

Second Star

S362 #113

Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario

Show quoted text

On Feb 28, 2025, at 9:36?PM, Tim Rivard via groups.io <tarivard@...> wrote:

I find it challenging to understand why its"' such an issue when an owner can help another owner with a project offer sound advice based on their expertise.

I don't think anyone of us follow this thread as a marketing tool but to learn from each other.? And to work with each other if it is favorable to both parties.

?

I met Jordan prior as I inquired about the Sabre 38 that they had for sale.? He was super helpful.

As a result, I learned about his part time obsession with sailing and electronics/electrical equipment.? We have had many phone conversations on many topics.

I think he may just be a bigger sailing/techie geek than I am.? Refreshing actually!

?

I have been working on my refit for a year now and many on this thread have been super helpful with private emails, pictures of installs, good sound advice etc.

Jordan has been a key part of my new electronics choices including volunteering to draw up circuits, a list of equipment I should consider (need) all based on his experience.

He has always made it clear that he would not take any offense (with an "s") if I decided not to work with him.

This is far more valuable than internet searches, west marine visits etc.? I think we should not dismiss the expertise right in front of us because we are worried about "soliciting"

?

From a big picture stand point, there are a handful of people who frequent this site for advice.? Let's offer it to each other and not take offence that one of us might be able to help.

I am sure there are many in this crowd who have some awesome advice to share.? (Stephanie - you have been a great motivator!)

?

Maybe someday I may need a broker, divorce lawyer, electronics expert, or a secret trick to some thingymajig etc.

Perhaps I may be able to find one with someone that I have exchanged conversations with, built some trust and have confidence in because they are in my circle.

?

Blatant "Sales and Marketing" should not be accepted; I agree.? This is not meant to be that in any way.? But, let's be more open minded about reaching out to our fellow sailors and seek advice.

We always have the prerogative to make our own decisions.? We can take it or leave it.

?

Tim R

38MK II in refit

#102589

开云体育

Hey Tim,

Yea we have one of the later hulls, 206. Towards the end of the run they started putting a sugar scoop on the 38s. ?I’m not sure how many they did but it did require the split backstay. These are the best pics I have of the transom. If you zoom in you can see the chain plates. If you need more detailed shots I’m happy to get them but it will be several weeks before I can do it. Just let me know.?

Randy

Randy Drummond

Dazzle

38mk2 206

Miami

Show quoted text

On Feb 28, 2025, at 9:44?pm, Tim Rivard via groups.io <tarivard@...> wrote:

?
Randy,

?

How did you end up with a split back stay on a 38 MKII?

I have hull 198 with a single back stay and I would love to set it up with a split back stay.

?

Do you have pictures?? was your transom modified to fit the split?

?

Tim R

38MKII in refit

--
Randy Drummond
Dazzle S38 mk2 206
Miami

#102590

开云体育

Tim, I hope you noticed I spoke fairly gently about this. I agree with you Jordan appears to be offering free information and that’s quite nice and helpful to many owners including myself. I just wanted to remind him that we as “Marine professionals“ have to be very careful How we word things as some people do get upset if they think we are trying to sell our wares.?

Jordan, I hope you didn’t take offense to what I said, as I do value what you offer from one owner to another with a slightly different focus than mine.

Allison Lehman

Swiftsure Yachts

510 912-5800 cell

510 860-4640 fax

allisonleh@... ? ? ??

Show quoted text

On Feb 28, 2025, at 6:36?PM, Tim Rivard via groups.io <tarivard@...> wrote:

?
I find it challenging to understand why its such an issue when an owner can help another owner with a project offer sound advice based on their expertise.

I don't think anyone of us follow this thread as a marketing tool but to learn from each other.? And to work with each other if it is favorable to both parties.

?

I met Jordan prior as I inquired about the Sabre 38 that they had for sale.? He was super helpful.

?

As a result, I learned about his part time obsession with sailing and electronics/electrical equipment.? We have had many phone conversations on many topics.

I think he may just be a bigger sailing/techie geek than I am.? Refreshing actually!

?

I have been working on my refit for a year now and many on this thread have been super helpful with private emails, pictures of installs, good sound advice etc.

?

Jordan has been a key part of my new electronics choices including volunteering to draw up circuits, a list of equipment I should consider (need) all based on his experience.

He has always made it clear that he would not take any offense (with an "s") if I decided not to work with him.

This is far more valuable than internet searches, west marine visits etc.? I think we should not dismiss the expertise right in front of us because we are worried about "soliciting"

?

From a big picture stand point, there are a handful of people who frequent this site for advice.? Let's offer it to each other and not take offence that one of us might be able to help.

I am sure there are many in this crowd who have some awesome advice to share.? (Stephanie - you have been a great motivator!)

?

Maybe someday I may need a broker, divorce lawyer, electronics expert, or a secret trick to some thingymajig etc.

Perhaps I may be able to find one with someone that I have exchanged conversations with, built some trust and have confidence in because they are in my circle.

?

Blatant "Sales and Marketing" should not be accepted; I agree.? This is not meant to be that in any way.? But, let's be more open minded about reaching out to our fellow sailors and seek advice.

We always have the prerogative to make our own decisions.? We can take it or leave it.

?

Tim R

38MK II in refit

--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest

#102592

I agree, and well said. Jordan has helped me in the past, and his expertise is an asset to the forum. 
Sent from my ShoePhone

-- 
Michael Henning
1985 S36 Caper
Allen Harbor, RI

#102593

开云体育

There is a difference between soliciting business and letting people know what business you are in. It is perfectly fine to have your business indicated in your signature, Allison, Allan, and James area contributors come to mind as examples. To the best of my knowledge, none of the three have ever said words to the effect of “call me if you want to sell your boat or get a divorce.” All three have at various times offered valuable information about their business that has been helpful to members.

The kind of statements I listed in a previous post, come pretty close to the soliciting business that is not acceptable. I am the administrator of a pretty large sailing forum, those statements that sailing forum would get the post deleted, repeated violations would get the member a temporary or permanent suspension. I’m not implying that Jordan should be banned or suspended, or the post deleted, I”m only providing that as context. Soliciting business in a sailing forum is generally frowned upon.?

This forum is self-regulated, i.e., the members define the standards and the members provide direction for how to comply with the standards. It has worked pretty well for the 25 years I’ve been here.?

I hope this is helpful for the newer members, it is not intended to punishing or shaming, just guidance on the community’s expectations.

Dave

Second Star

S362 #113

Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario

Show quoted text

On Mar 1, 2025, at 2:21?AM, Allison Lehman via groups.io <allisonleh@...> wrote:

Tim, I hope you noticed I spoke fairly gently about this. I agree with you Jordan appears to be offering free information and that’s quite nice and helpful to many owners including myself. I just wanted to remind him that we as “Marine professionals“ have to be very careful How we word things as some people do get upset if they think we are trying to sell our wares.?
Jordan, I hope you didn’t take offense to what I said, as I do value what you offer from one owner to another with a slightly different focus than mine.

Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
510 912-5800 cell
510 860-4640 fax
allisonleh@...?? ? ??

On Feb 28, 2025, at 6:36?PM, Tim Rivard via groups.io <tarivard@...> wrote:

?
I find it challenging to understand why its such an issue when an owner can help another owner with a project offer sound advice based on their expertise.
I don't think anyone of us follow this thread as a marketing tool but to learn from each other.? And to work with each other if it is favorable to both parties.
?
I met Jordan prior as I inquired about the Sabre 38 that they had for sale.? He was super helpful.
?
As a result, I learned about his part time obsession with sailing and electronics/electrical equipment.? We have had many phone conversations on many topics.
I think he may just be a bigger sailing/techie geek than I am.? Refreshing actually!
?
I have been working on my refit for a year now and many on this thread have been super helpful with private emails, pictures of installs, good sound advice etc.
?
Jordan has been a key part of my new electronics choices including volunteering to draw up circuits, a list of equipment I should consider (need) all based on his experience.
He has always made it clear that he would not take any offense (with an "s") if I decided not to work with him.
This is far more valuable than internet searches, west marine visits etc.? I think we should not dismiss the expertise right in front of us because we are worried about "soliciting"
?
From a big picture stand point, there are a handful of people who frequent this site for advice.? Let's offer it to each other and not take offence that one of us might be able to help.
I am sure there are many in this crowd who have some awesome advice to share.? (Stephanie - you have been a great motivator!)
?
Maybe someday I may need a broker, divorce lawyer, electronics expert, or a secret trick to some thingymajig etc.
Perhaps I may be able to find one with someone that I have exchanged conversations with, built some trust and have confidence in because they are in my circle.
?
Blatant "Sales and Marketing" should not be accepted; I agree.? This is not meant to be that in any way.? But, let's be more open minded about reaching out to our fellow sailors and seek advice.
We always have the prerogative to make our own decisions.? We can take it or leave it.
?
Tim R
38MK II in refit

--?
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest

#102594

Hi Brian

?

I added to flexible 110W solar panels to the Bimini of our 402. One between the split backstay and one that I move around the Bimini as required to avoid shadows from the main. They’re contacted by 10’ cables that even allow me to position the forward one on the dodger, but you’ll hang yourself if the joiner is open. They’re held in place by strong magnets so relocating them is a breeze, we have ridden out all kinds of weather in the Bahamas including occasional gusts over 45 and have never had an issue. If you go this route I can send you the parts order from Amazon. One tip, paint the stainless magnets with epoxy to prevent rusting, their stainless is not top quality.

?

I’ve attached a couple of pictures, hope this helps.

?

Allan

?

Dagny

S402-59

?

#102595

With a split backstay, is there a concern about shading from the stay itself? ? (There's also an issue with shade from pole mounted radar installations.)

?

I understand that some panels have substantially decreased output with very moderate shading whereas others are designed to be shade tolerant. ? ?In many ways the bimini seems like the best place to install flexible panels being out of the way and having less shade than the dodger. ? Considering the number of bimini installations out there, I'm beginning to think that shading from the backstay is more theoretical and real.

?

Perhaps those with split backstays and bimini might comment. ?Is backstay shading a valid concern? ?Are there specific panel arrangements i.e. four 50W panels with separate MPPT controllers vs two 100 W panels with a single controller preferable? ?Are there specific panel brands/models that are more shade tolerant. ?

?

Tim

Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Sausalito CA

?

#102596

Thanks Randy,

?

I think you may have the 386 (masquerading as a 38 MKII) :-) - a sign of things to come for Sabre I suppose.

I believe that I can split my backstay on the existing transom design.? I may need to reinforce the connection points - Last time I was in engineering school many many many years ago, I could do the math to determine the split load.? Something to do with trigonometry and diving the load by 2.? Simple statics.

?

I think the PO was using running backstays on my boat as there are shackles attached on both port and starboard side.

?

Tim R

38MKII in refit

Solar Panels on Bimini with Split Backstay