ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
esc to dismiss
Re: Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
The 12 years is a USCG requirement in the CFRs.
| |
Dave
Second Star
S362 #113
Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 8, 2025, at 6:01?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
Thanks Dave, Pete and Tim.? To say this is an evolving field may be an understatement.? It seems odd the battery User Manual cites Class D extinguishers first in their list, followed by sand and dry chemical.? Possibly a ¡°CYA¡± ?legal department phrasing??? I have 6 dry chemical A/B/C extinguishers accumulated over a few years, so one might think that would be adequate.? Will check the ages; had not heard of a 12 year life.? Was that a surveyor criteria, ABYC &/or insurance company requirement? ?Thought only requirement was the gauge be in the green.? And recommended to shake them periodically to prevent caking of the chemicals.??
?
Guess my concern is some underwriter will latch on to the Class D mentioned by the battery manual, which seems superfluous if not ineffective.? Especially as there are different types of Class D extinguisher, one of which is specifically not recommended for lithium batteries.??
?
I learned first hand about epoxy exothermic reactions decades ago when mixing too much epoxy on deck when filling bolt holes prior to redrilling to better seal the deck penetrations. ?After that always had a larger contain of water available and mixed smaller quantities.??
?
Thanks,
Brian
?
?
There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.
To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.
When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.
?
Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
?
The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??
A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.??
Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??
?
Re: Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
Thanks Dave, Pete and Tim.? To say this is an evolving field may be an understatement.? It seems odd the battery User Manual cites Class D extinguishers first in their list, followed by sand and dry chemical.? Possibly a ¡°CYA¡± ?legal department phrasing??? I have 6 dry chemical A/B/C extinguishers accumulated over a few years, so one might think that would be adequate.? Will check the ages; had not heard of a 12 year life.? Was that a surveyor criteria, ABYC &/or insurance company requirement? ?Thought only requirement was the gauge be in the green.? And recommended to shake them periodically to prevent caking of the chemicals.? ? Guess my concern is some underwriter will latch on to the Class D mentioned by the battery manual, which seems superfluous if not ineffective.? Especially as there are different types of Class D extinguisher, one of which is specifically not recommended for lithium batteries.? ? I learned first hand about epoxy exothermic reactions decades ago when mixing too much epoxy on deck when filling bolt holes prior to redrilling to better seal the deck penetrations. ?After that always had a larger contain of water available and mixed smaller quantities.? ? Thanks, Brian ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Lochner via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2025 9:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?? There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway. To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming. When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank. ? Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote: ? The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ?? A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.?? Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??
?
|
These look like the exact same products. ?I think they are. ?
 
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 7, 2025, at 8:37?PM, Carter Brey via groups.io <carter.brey@...> wrote:
? Same idea:
?
https://mysticstainless.com/the-foldaway.html
|
Same idea:
?
https://mysticstainless.com/the-foldaway.html
|
Re: CNG Compressed Natural Gas Refilling Near Northport LI NY
| |
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 7, 2025, at 4:06?PM, David Nehring via groups.io <sabre38mk1@...> wrote:
?
Keep looking
Hello,
I purchased my Sabre 28 from Connecticutwith a filled CNG tank last year, but the gauge is now showing it is getting low.? It appears that my Kenyon model 219 stove was converted from propane to CNG because it still has a tag indicating propane as the fuel type but a sticker was tacked on to indicate CNG. ?
?
It appears that CNG is hard to find these days, so what should I do?. Do I keep looking for
CNG or do I convert or replace the stove?
?
--
David Garcia
1984 Sabre 28 Mark III
Northport, Long Island, NY
Re: Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.
To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.
When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ?? ? A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.?? ? Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.?? ? Thanks, Brian Escapade? S426 CT / LIS
|
Thank you, Phil
?
Bought 8" of stern tube from RE Thompson in Handcock Maine.? They are an amazing marine machine shop.? Gave the guy a $20 and he cut off a piece.??
?
My boat used exhaust hose.? The packing gland is 1.75 OD, the old stern tube a bit larger that 1.5 OD.? ?Purchase a new Buck Algonquin gland and pipe for 1.5 that matches the new 1.5" stern tube for the 1" staft.
?
Hopefully when this is all back together, I'll create a bit more space between the coupling and gland.? ?Currently it is amazingly tight.??
?
Tim
S-34
|
That¡¯s a very interesting product. ?Never seen or heard of it.?
We have the Edson one-step as well as the inflatable step. This is much nicer.?
Thank you.?
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 7, 2025, at 4:14?PM, Allison Lehman via groups.io <allisonleh@...> wrote:
? Welcome Eric. ?You have good taste in boats. I have see that ladder system up close and personal and think it¡¯s pretty nice.
Allison On May 7, 2025, at 2:45?PM, Eric Vos via groups.io <ericalexandervos@...> wrote:
I'm about to start life on a 1988 Sabre 38 MK II.? A gem of a boat with the stern boarding ladder.? Yet, that system is not ideal if you want to bring gear, groceries, etc. on board.? I want to get a sturdy ladder which would be set at the boarding gate between the stanchions.? Towards the front of the cockpit there is a boarding gate between the stanchions, where you can unhook a short section of the lifelines to walk through, where a fold-down ladder should seem to go.? makes a system I would think works but wanted to see if anyone had a better idea.? Thanks.??
-- Allison S426 Kingfisher SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Re: Preventing kelp from blocking the raw water intake
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 8, 2025, at 10:52?AM, Tony Billera via groups.io <tony.billera@...> wrote:
¡° ?but then you close the seacock, reattach the hose and off you go.¡±
Better open it again :-)
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
On May 7, 2025, at 3:05?PM, Stephen Burns via groups.io <sburns@...> wrote:
? Hi Tim et al.,
We have a strainer and I¡¯m very happy with it. I can¡¯t imagine that there is not a seacock below the hose you¡¯re talking about. When on the several occasions we¡¯ve had no water flow out the exhaust, the first and simplest check is to close that seacock,
pull off the hose and slowly reopen the seacock. If water flows in, then the problem is upstream. If not, I take a ss bbq skewer and gently poke it through the seacock and strainer. That has always unblocked the strainer. You may get a sudden spurt of water,
but then you close the seacock, reattach the hose and off you go.
Stephen
__________________________________
Stephen Burns
Kestrel 362 #123
Noank CT
On May 8, 2025, at 5:33?AM, Tim Sowerby via groups.io <tim.sowerby2@...> wrote:
My mechanic warned me off removing the hose between the filter and the through hull, "unless you really know what you're doing and have spare hose clamps available". ? Since I didn't who what I was doing and didn't want to take a chance, I shelled out
the necessary $.
?
I'd very much appreciate if someone who does know what they're doing who take me through, step by step, the process of removing the hose, or clearing it from the inside and list the tools I'd need. to do it. ?The filter is below the waterline on a 426.
?I don't want a flood.
?
(Leaving Santa Barbara I managed to keep the kelp at bay, but before departure, sucked kelp into water intake for the head!!)
?
Tim
Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Tiburon CA
?
|
Welcome Eric. ?You have good taste in boats. I have see that ladder system up close and personal and think it¡¯s pretty nice.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 7, 2025, at 2:45?PM, Eric Vos via groups.io <ericalexandervos@...> wrote:
I'm about to start life on a 1988 Sabre 38 MK II.? A gem of a boat with the stern boarding ladder.? Yet, that system is not ideal if you want to bring gear, groceries, etc. on board.? I want to get a sturdy ladder which would be set at the boarding gate between the stanchions.? Towards the front of the cockpit there is a boarding gate between the stanchions, where you can unhook a short section of the lifelines to walk through, where a fold-down ladder should seem to go.? makes a system I would think works but wanted to see if anyone had a better idea.? Thanks.??
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Re: CNG Compressed Natural Gas Refilling Near Northport LI NY
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello,
I purchased my Sabre 28 from Connecticutwith a filled CNG tank last year, but the gauge is now showing it is getting low.? It appears that my Kenyon model 219 stove was converted from propane to CNG because it still has a tag indicating propane as the fuel type but a sticker was tacked on to indicate CNG. ?
?
It appears that CNG is hard to find these days, so what should I do?. Do I keep looking for
CNG or do I convert or replace the stove?
?
--
David Garcia
1984 Sabre 28 Mark III
Northport, Long Island, NY
|
Re: Preventing kelp from blocking the raw water intake
¡° ?but then you close the seacock, reattach the hose and off you go.¡±
Better open it again :-)
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 7, 2025, at 3:05?PM, Stephen Burns via groups.io <sburns@...> wrote:
?
Hi Tim et al.,
We have a strainer and I¡¯m very happy with it. I can¡¯t imagine that there is not a seacock below the hose you¡¯re talking about. When on the several occasions we¡¯ve had no water flow out the exhaust, the first and simplest check is to close that seacock,
pull off the hose and slowly reopen the seacock. If water flows in, then the problem is upstream. If not, I take a ss bbq skewer and gently poke it through the seacock and strainer. That has always unblocked the strainer. You may get a sudden spurt of water,
but then you close the seacock, reattach the hose and off you go.
Stephen
__________________________________
Stephen Burns
Kestrel 362 #123
Noank CT
On May 8, 2025, at 5:33?AM, Tim Sowerby via groups.io <tim.sowerby2@...> wrote:
My mechanic warned me off removing the hose between the filter and the through hull, "unless you really know what you're doing and have spare hose clamps available". ? Since I didn't who what I was doing and didn't want to take a chance, I shelled out
the necessary $.
?
I'd very much appreciate if someone who does know what they're doing who take me through, step by step, the process of removing the hose, or clearing it from the inside and list the tools I'd need. to do it. ?The filter is below the waterline on a 426.
?I don't want a flood.
?
(Leaving Santa Barbara I managed to keep the kelp at bay, but before departure, sucked kelp into water intake for the head!!)
?
Tim
Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Tiburon CA
?
|
Re: Preventing kelp from blocking the raw water intake
Hi Tim et al.,
We have a strainer and I¡¯m very happy with it. I can¡¯t imagine that there is not a seacock below the hose you¡¯re talking about. When on the several occasions we¡¯ve had no water flow out the exhaust, the first and simplest check is to close that seacock,
pull off the hose and slowly reopen the seacock. If water flows in, then the problem is upstream. If not, I take a ss bbq skewer and gently poke it through the seacock and strainer. That has always unblocked the strainer. You may get a sudden spurt of water,
but then you close the seacock, reattach the hose and off you go.
Stephen
__________________________________
Stephen Burns
Kestrel 362 #123
Noank CT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 8, 2025, at 5:33?AM, Tim Sowerby via groups.io <tim.sowerby2@...> wrote:
My mechanic warned me off removing the hose between the filter and the through hull, "unless you really know what you're doing and have spare hose clamps available". ? Since I didn't who what I was doing and didn't want to take a chance, I shelled out
the necessary $.
?
I'd very much appreciate if someone who does know what they're doing who take me through, step by step, the process of removing the hose, or clearing it from the inside and list the tools I'd need. to do it. ?The filter is below the waterline on a 426.
?I don't want a flood.
?
(Leaving Santa Barbara I managed to keep the kelp at bay, but before departure, sucked kelp into water intake for the head!!)
?
Tim
Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Tiburon CA
?
|
CNG Compressed Natural Gas Refilling Near Northport LI NY
Hello,
I purchased my Sabre 28 from Connecticutwith a filled CNG tank last year, but the gauge is now showing it is getting low. ?It appears that my Kenyon model 219 stove was converted from propane to CNG because it still has a tag indicating propane as the fuel type but a sticker was tacked on to indicate CNG. ?
?
It appears that CNG is hard to find these days, so what should I do?. Do I keep looking for
CNG or do I convert or replace the stove?
?
--
David Garcia
1984 Sabre 28 Mark III
Northport, Long Island, NY
|
I'm about to start life on a 1988 Sabre 38 MK II.? A gem of a boat with the stern boarding ladder.? Yet, that system is not ideal if you want to bring gear, groceries, etc. on board.? I want to get a sturdy ladder which would be set at the boarding gate between the stanchions.? Towards the front of the cockpit there is a boarding gate between the stanchions, where you can unhook a short section of the lifelines to walk through, where a fold-down ladder should seem to go.? makes a system I would think works but wanted to see if anyone had a better idea.? Thanks.??
|
Re: Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
Our experience as a dealer is that in the event that LiFePo4 batteries get overheated to the point of melting the battery case, they don¡¯t actually catch fire. We had an advertising van with a lithium based system that provided power for LED signs and they had some serious battery issues which were passed on to us by Victron for us to rectify. The top of the 24V battery was blackened and charred and clearly had had a serious meltdown. At no time however did this cause a fire. There are however other variants of Lithium battery that can pose a fire hazard that might need specialized extinguishers to operate them safely. Things still seem to be in a state of flux as regards proper treatment of lithium batteries from a lot of different perspectives, so it¡¯s a bit of a waiting game until regulations catch up with technology.
?
--
Pete Waterson
¡°°ä³ó²¹°ù»å´Ç²Ô²Ô²¹²â¡±
S38-2
Oriental, NC
|
Our cabin sole near the mast step and the transition between from the main cabin to the vee birth is getting damaged by water running down the mast.? I know this topic will never end but I wanted to pass on? a quick fix for the? root cause of the problem and a question on solution.? When I bought our boat in 2010 it had water damage around the mast step but? not catastrophic, The sole was wet on the underside and getting some delamination.? I removed the mast step, scrapped out wet wood and then applied epoxy on the underside of the sole.? Very messy job.? The problem has come back.? My mast drain is clear.? What i didn't realize until now is that when the boat is heeled, sailing or just high wind at the dock, water weeps out of the side where the mast sits on the step.? I? sealed this with the very sticky tape that is used for heat shrink covers.? Leaked has stopped!.? Sole is drying out.
?
The sole looks fine but I know underneath it is not.? I was thinking of cutting out the section? that has been damaged and then glassing the underside or just saturate it with resin.? Then reinstall it with some trim teak trim to cover the seams.? Has anybody tried this?? ?Any thoughts on how to? make neat cuts?
?
Boat is launched and ready to sail? Mid lake water temp is 38F!? But the ice is gone.
?
Cheers!
?
Bob
S42 Vitesse? Lake Ontario
|
Re: Preventing kelp from blocking the raw water intake
My mechanic warned me off removing the hose between the filter and the through hull, "unless you really know what you're doing and have spare hose clamps available". ? Since I didn't who what I was doing and didn't want to take a chance, I shelled out the necessary $.
?
I'd very much appreciate if someone who does know what they're doing who take me through, step by step, the process of removing the hose, or clearing it from the inside and list the tools I'd need. to do it. ?The filter is below the waterline on a 426. ?I don't want a flood.
?
(Leaving Santa Barbara I managed to keep the kelp at bay, but before departure, sucked kelp into water intake for the head!!)
?
Tim
Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Tiburon CA
?
|
Re: Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
I don't have Li (yet), but I recently completed my Safety at Sea certification, complete with a swim in chilly San Francisco Bay. ?Our instructor, who manages high end racing yachts and expedition vessels, stated that only aqueous vermiculite dispersion (AVD) ?extinguishers work on Li battery fires, Apparently, "AVD .... coats the fire with vermiculite particles, cooling and isolating the fire, which prevents re-ignition and addresses thermal runaway". ? The picture she showed looks like concrete poured over the battery! ? I think they cost about $200 per my notes. ?
?
Tim
Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Sausalito ?CA
?
|
Re: S386 Emergency Tiller
Edward
Thanks for sharing your experience, helpful to have this knowledge without the headache. How do you attach your bushing, to the holes in the deck after removing the cover? A photo would be helpful.?
--
Tom Malone
"Anna Marie" Sabre 362-#173
Port Townsend, WA USA
|
Carter Brey
Eric Vos
Pete Waterson
Bob Fields