ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
esc to dismiss
Re: impeller access in Westerbeke 35B 3 in Sabre 362
Thank you all the helpful advice. I do remove the shower door, pad the floor, and use a racketing wrench. What was Westerbeke thinking...
Have a good season all.?
?
Paul
Pegasus
Sabre 362
|
Re: Report on Newport-Bermuda race sinkings
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Our 2003 426 has no crazing. She lived in the Caribbean for some of her life.
George Eisenberg
Panamaria
426 #10
Sausalito, CA
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
From Allison’s reply sounds like expansion and contraction.?
Perhaps exacerbated by humidity and heat ??
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 10:07?AM, Dan Grossman via groups.io <ldg004@...> wrote:
?
This is also my understanding of the
story. I hadn't heard that it was mercury that forced the change
to the formula, but no great surprise.
Sapphire (H/N 70, built in 2000) has a
few stress cracks in places you'd expect, but no serious crazing.
Interesting how inconsistent it is from boat to boat. One
hypothesis is that the proximate cause of the problem is the
affected gel coat being sprayed too thick.
On 5/23/2025 9:56 AM, Jordan via
groups.io wrote:
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find
varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on
the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By
the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to
a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here
can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others
were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early
90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites
removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient
that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it
meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically)
in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes
and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present
themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners
started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those
manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know
it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that
was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others.
That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip
paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked
at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3
more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel
and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you
squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was
exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix
it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
|
Hi Brian, I have a Pentel sediment & charcoal filter behind my water tank selection manifold than a Pearl UV sterilizer that kills 99% of water borne organisms before it reaches any of our boat taps.
Sam Moore? Muse10? S402 #27 '97
Brian 0n our 426, we have a Cambell filter for the galley faucet. We always keep 2-4 filters on hand as you never know when a company is going to discontinue a product.
|
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
My boat came with a Shurflo Waterguard filter under the galley sink.? In looking for a replacement cartridge, it appears they no longer make a cartridge that will fit in the housing.? They all look to be 10” long and narrow vs. the 5” x 3” that is installed.? Am not certain a 10” filter housing will fit under the galley sink and still have sufficient room to drop the housing to replace cartridges in the future.??
?
What type of filter do people have, if any?? Last year [our first with the boat] we brought water for drinking / cooking and only used the water in the tanks for washing.? Would be “nice” to have the option to drink the water from the tanks as well.? Cleaned the tanks last year and would need to do again.??
?
Thanks,
Brian?
Escapade? S426
CT / LIS
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
--
Sam Moore
Muse 10 - S402/'97
#27
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
This is also my understanding of the
story. I hadn't heard that it was mercury that forced the change
to the formula, but no great surprise.
Sapphire (H/N 70, built in 2000) has a
few stress cracks in places you'd expect, but no serious crazing.
Interesting how inconsistent it is from boat to boat. One
hypothesis is that the proximate cause of the problem is the
affected gel coat being sprayed too thick.
On 5/23/2025 9:56 AM, Jordan via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find
varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on
the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By
the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to
a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here
can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others
were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early
90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites
removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient
that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it
meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically)
in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes
and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present
themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners
started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those
manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know
it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that
was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others.
That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip
paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked
at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3
more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel
and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you
squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was
exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix
it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Nope. ?I have seen both cases on boats in the same harbor. ?But heat seems to make it more obvious. ?If you have crazing on your boat wash it and basher to clean the crazing. ?Then watch it every time you are there. ?I have seen cool days you hardly see it and in the heat it is fugly. ?Kingfisher has a small amount of crazing and every 3 to five years we address the worst offenders.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 9:31?AM, Tony Billera via groups.io <tony.billera@...> wrote:
Perhaps the extent of the problem has to do w what climate the vessel is in, and whether it is covered or not??
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
On May 23, 2025, at 9:27?AM, Allison Lehman via groups.io <allisonleh@...> wrote:
? Unfortunately Jordan, most 426s and 386s still have some crazing but not a huge amount. ?Its weird as to how it varies.
Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
On May 23, 2025, at 6:56?AM, Jordan via groups.io <jordan.permoda@...> wrote:
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early 90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically) in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others. That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3 more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
-- Allison S426 Kingfisher SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Brian 0n our 426, we have a Cambell filter for the galley faucet. We always keep 2-4 filters on hand as you never know when a company is going to discontinue a product.
|
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 8:36?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
My boat came with a Shurflo Waterguard filter under the galley sink.? In looking for a replacement cartridge, it appears they no longer make a cartridge that will fit in the housing.? They all look to be 10” long and narrow vs. the 5” x 3” that is installed.? Am not certain a 10” filter housing will fit under the galley sink and still have sufficient room to drop the housing to replace cartridges in the future.??
?
What type of filter do people have, if any?? Last year [our first with the boat] we brought water for drinking / cooking and only used the water in the tanks for washing.? Would be “nice” to have the option to drink the water from the tanks as well. ?Cleaned the tanks last year and would need to do again.??
?
Thanks,
Brian?
Escapade? S426
CT / LIS
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Perhaps the extent of the problem has to do w what climate the vessel is in, and whether it is covered or not??
Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 9:27?AM, Allison Lehman via groups.io <allisonleh@...> wrote:
? Unfortunately Jordan, most 426s and 386s still have some crazing but not a huge amount. ?Its weird as to how it varies.
Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
On May 23, 2025, at 6:56?AM, Jordan via groups.io <jordan.permoda@...> wrote:
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early 90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically) in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others. That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3 more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
-- Allison S426 Kingfisher SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Re: Coach sides core material.
I would ask Glen Chaplin what to use as he has the build schedules.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 8:19?AM, Jim 1980 S30, via groups.io <Lake.jim.hsl@...> wrote:
Can anyone tell me what material is used in a 1980 S30 # 28 to fill the void in the side where the port lights are installed?
I am replacing the ports and the material between the inner and outer "skins" is a loose and chunky mess. Should this void be filled entirely?
I know it has to completely filled around the port light but should it be filled all along the side?
?
I am thinking thickened epoxy used in conjunction with a wooden clamp of sorts (plywood with a slot cut and fitted over both layers of FG) to maintain the required gap for the port lights.
?
--
Jim Lake
1980 Sabre 30
Halifax NS
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Unfortunately Jordan, most 426s and 386s still have some crazing but not a huge amount. ?Its weird as to how it varies.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 6:56?AM, Jordan via groups.io <jordan.permoda@...> wrote:
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early 90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically) in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others. That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3 more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Galley, under-sink filter cartridge
See if the one by Campbell, model 4C4, works.
Franz Alvarez
S/V Tranquility, S38MKII
City Island, NY (finally!)
Get
-- Franz Alvarez S/V Tranquility - S38MKII
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
To everybody out there, if you feel so inclined as to repair it, I suggest you do it before it gets into the nonskid. ?There is a different surface tension for the non skid and until it really gets going it stays in the smooth parts.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 6:43?AM, Jorgen Naess via groups.io <joergen.naess@...> wrote:
My 2001 S452 has mild/medium crazing in the cockpit and deck gelcoat (=all over). But not on the non-skid. A good, deep scrub and wash and then waxing makes it 'go away'. Well at least less visible. It is only cosmetic, and I have had no issues regarding leaks or structural.?
?
Jorgen Naess
2001 Sabre 452, VENTO
Safe Harbor, Greenport, NY
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Bill several people over the years have taken the time to repair the gelcoat. ?The solutions vary from grind the area way back and painting, grinding back a lot the are gel coating or stripping completely and re gel coating. ?The crazing in to specific to the models, it is more the years and the gelcoat they used. ?Unfortunately, at some point Sabre (and J Boats and a few others) got a bad batch of gelcoat which just continued the problem.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 3:16?AM, Bill D via groups.io <Wpdragan@...> wrote:
I looked at 2 402’s this past weekend. The older one had a little crazing, but I would consider acceptable for a nearly 30 year old boat. The broker said the newer one had the gel coat repaired/redone at 1 year old under warranty, but the work was done locally( not by Sabre). That boat had no crazing issues. I have seen others from that era that looked like the gel coat was going to come off in giant flakes. Does anyone know what model year Sabre finally got the crazing under control? I can’t imagine buyers of their million dollar motor yachts would tolerate this. Bill Looking for a 362 or 402 On May 23, 2025, at 12:43?AM, Bill Akins via groups.io <bakins8700@...> wrote:
? Yes. ? I looked at 6 Sabres in the last year between 1988 and 2004. ?362, 38, and 386.
the 1988 had very little crazing as does my 1982. ? All of the boats that I saw made between 1993 and 2004 regardless of model had severe crazing like your photo. ?
Bill Akins
S30
Chicago
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
We use an RV filter on the water going into the tank and then filter drinking water through a Brita filter. We rarely, if ever, get water from a non-municipal water source. Many people run the water through a single or double filter that people on well water use at home when they fill the tank.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 11:36?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
My boat came with a Shurflo Waterguard filter under the galley sink.? In looking for a replacement cartridge, it appears they no longer make a cartridge that will fit in the housing.? They all look to be 10” long and narrow vs. the 5” x 3” that is installed.? Am not certain a 10” filter housing will fit under the galley sink and still have sufficient room to drop the housing to replace cartridges in the future.?? ? What type of filter do people have, if any?? Last year [our first with the boat] we brought water for drinking / cooking and only used the water in the tanks for washing.? Would be “nice” to have the option to drink the water from the tanks as well. ?Cleaned the tanks last year and would need to do again.?? ? Thanks, Brian? Escapade? S426 CT / LIS
|
Re: Coach sides core material.
If I recall correctly it was some kind of light weight polyester filler. Could have been a polyurethane foam. The only purpose was to help bond the headliner to the cabin and provide something sold for the ports to bed against. Without the filler the cabin house and the headliner would flex when the ports were mounted.
If I was going to repair this, I might use a rigid spray foam like Great Stuff and then trim it back flush. A flexible foam, like the kind used for doors and windows might not work well.?
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2025, at 11:19?AM, Jim 1980 S30, via groups.io <Lake.jim.hsl@...> wrote:
Can anyone tell me what material is used in a 1980 S30 # 28 to fill the void in the side where the port lights are installed?
I am replacing the ports and the material between the inner and outer "skins" is a loose and chunky mess. Should this void be filled entirely?
I know it has to completely filled around the port light but should it be filled all along the side?
?
I am thinking thickened epoxy used in conjunction with a wooden clamp of sorts (plywood with a slot cut and fitted over both layers of FG) to maintain the required gap for the port lights.
?
--
Jim Lake
1980 Sabre 30
Halifax NS
|
My boat came with a Shurflo Waterguard filter under the galley sink.? In looking for a replacement cartridge, it appears they no longer make a cartridge that will fit in the housing.? They all look to be 10” long and narrow vs. the 5” x 3” that is installed.? Am not certain a 10” filter housing will fit under the galley sink and still have sufficient room to drop the housing to replace cartridges in the future.? ? What type of filter do people have, if any?? Last year [our first with the boat] we brought water for drinking / cooking and only used the water in the tanks for washing.? Would be “nice” to have the option to drink the water from the tanks as well. ?Cleaned the tanks last year and would need to do again.? ? Thanks, Brian Escapade? S426 CT / LIS
|
Re: Coach sides core material.
In 2019 I replaced my opening ports on our ‘88 S36. Those voids were filled with 3M’s premium marine filler. It’s a polyester filler. I can’t say if that’s what they were using in 1980, but here are some images for you to compare.
?
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40067468/
?
to answer your other question; yes, I would fill it completely. That way you are screwing into a solid substrate when mounting.?
?
Good luck with your project.?
I have an album with all of my photos if you want some inspiration.?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
?
|
Re: Coach sides core material.
likely end grain balsa core
On 5/23/2025 11:19 AM, Jim 1980 S30,
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Can anyone tell me what material is used in a 1980 S30 # 28
to fill the void in the side where the port lights are
installed?
I am replacing the ports and the material between the inner
and outer "skins" is a loose and chunky mess. Should this void
be filled entirely?
I know it has to completely filled around the port light but
should it be filled all along the side?
?
I am thinking thickened epoxy used in conjunction with a
wooden clamp of sorts (plywood with a slot cut and fitted over
both layers of FG) to maintain the required gap for the port
lights.
?
--
Jim Lake
1980 Sabre 30
Halifax NS
--
Dave Short
SV One Timer 1997 S362
Mt Desert, ME
|
Coach sides core material.
Can anyone tell me what material is used in a 1980 S30 # 28 to fill the void in the side where the port lights are installed?
I am replacing the ports and the material between the inner and outer "skins" is a loose and chunky mess. Should this void be filled entirely?
I know it has to completely filled around the port light but should it be filled all along the side?
?
I am thinking thickened epoxy used in conjunction with a wooden clamp of sorts (plywood with a slot cut and fitted over both layers of FG) to maintain the required gap for the port lights.
?
--
Jim Lake
1980 Sabre 30
Halifax NS
|
Sam Moore
Jordan
David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME
Jim 1980 S30,