Re: Replacing 402 hot water heater
Hi Jim,
Yes the original Raritan 12 gallon unit. When winterizing, I pull both cold and hot hoses off and join them together. Then I have to disassemble the bottom piping because that check valve down there will not let the tank drain. It is a royal pain! I keep saying I am going to improve it, but then I just put it back together the way it was. I don't love draining all that water in that compartment, but so far so good. I don't put antifreeze in the tank at all. No need to when it's about empty. A drain, with a hose barb and hose leading to the bilge would be REAL nice, but you know how much fun it is to work in that little space. A couple of years ago I took the shower door off to winterize it, and it now lives in my garage loft. It's just not needed, but with it you can SAY you have a dry head. I would be fine with a 6 gallon tank. That size got us by for years, and lighter for racing.
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT
|
I bought six, for my 362, in 2021 from Fisheries Supply
On 3/20/2025 3:19 PM, Jim Gregory via
groups.io wrote:
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Dan I got the part number from Defender. Jim Kerney had
purchased them, and I had to call up Defender and have them go
through HIS orders to find the number. I doubt I could do that
trick with the new and UN-improved Defender but who knows. I
bought a complete set of them to have some spares on hand. The
price seems to have about doubled since then if memory serves.
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT
--
Dave Short
SV One Timer 1997 S362
Mt Desert, ME
|
Dan I got the part number from Defender. Jim Kerney had purchased them, and I had to call up Defender and have them go through HIS orders to find the number. I doubt I could do that trick with the new and UN-improved Defender but who knows. I bought a complete set of them to have some spares on hand. The price seems to have about doubled since then if memory serves.
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT
|
I had an email exchange with Glenn last week Mitchell Sogin IPhone 5085661468
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On Mar 20, 2025, at 2:35?PM, David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME via groups.io <dhs.short@...> wrote:
?
The last word on that ~6 months ago were that reports of his
retirement had been greatly exaggerated.
Perhaps something has happened since but? . . . . . .
On 3/20/2025 2:32 PM, Gus Wilson via
groups.io wrote:
I believe some reported that Glenn Chaplin had retired.?
?
Does anyone have the current Sabre contact's email address??
I tried to make an enquiry using the online contact form, but
don't think it was transmitted.
Gus
S38 MKII Wings' duet
-- Dave Short SV One Timer 1997 S362 Mt Desert, ME
|
The last word on that ~6 months ago were that reports of his
retirement had been greatly exaggerated.
Perhaps something has happened since but? . . . . . .
On 3/20/2025 2:32 PM, Gus Wilson via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I believe some reported that Glenn Chaplin had retired.?
?
Does anyone have the current Sabre contact's email address??
I tried to make an enquiry using the online contact form, but
don't think it was transmitted.
Gus
S38 MKII Wings' duet
--
Dave Short
SV One Timer 1997 S362
Mt Desert, ME
|
I believe some reported that Glenn Chaplin had retired.?
?
Does anyone have the current Sabre contact's email address?? I tried to make an enquiry using the online contact form, but don't think it was transmitted.
Gus
S38 MKII Wings' duet
|
Thanks Jim!? I didn't know that OEM
replacements were available, since Lewmar's website is hopeless
and Defender is not quite as bad. Ronstan also makes a ball
bearing block that looks like it will fit, and might be worth
using for the mainsheet.
I visited Sapphire yesterday, and it
turns out that there were only a few sheaves in the port-side deck
organizer that are frozen. I think maybe the best course would be
to just take that one organizer apart and clean it up, and replace
the sheaves that are worn out. The last thing I feel like doing is
coring, filling and re-drilling for complete replacements... as
well as sparing the budget.
On 3/20/2025 12:08 PM, Jim Gregory via
groups.io wrote:
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On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 12:07 PM, Jim Gregory wrote:
?
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT ?? ?
|
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 12:07 PM, Jim Gregory wrote:
?
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT ?? ?
|
Here they are.
https://defender.com/en_us/lewmar-organizer-delrin-repl-sheave-15900496g?srsltid=AfmBOop1uobpmbz_0grjThz5xSfZDKkfa54k3Q5t2wRzw4oWcgxH1Mz1
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT
|
I had to replace some sheaves on my orginisers and found the part numbers. I believe i ordered them from defender. I will try to dig up that info. Pretty sure I posted here about it. Hmm
--
Jim Gregory
Sabre 402 #32
Milford CT
|
Hi Tim,?
Sounds like a good schedule. But I wonder if it's better to have the washer conform to the glass surface rather than crush the glass to conform to the washer.
Glass loses it's strength when crushed. And if the glass doesn't conform to the washer, the washer will be at an angle and the nut will apply a lateral force to the bolt. This lateral force may not be much but the result will be an uneven distribution of forces around the washer contact surface.
I think the key is to have the proper torque without destroying the surfaces. I'd rather bend the washer than the glass.
Its possible to level the surface with epoxy putty before applying torque.
?
?
Best of luck,
Greg
Duet
34-2 338
|
This is what is in the bilge of my 1997 362.? Pretty sure this is
OEM.? Working from memory, I think these are at least 1/4" thick
On 3/20/2025 12:24 AM, Tim Dokken via
groups.io wrote:
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Show quoted text
Back in 2023, I put on all new SS washers and SS nuts for my
keel bolts, and since then my boat has been only in fresh water.
?What I found out less than two years later, is that my washers
are already pitting and degrading, which was quit surprising. I
am guessing the Marina sold me 18-8 washers instead of 316, so I
am now in the process of replacing all nuts and washers yet
again. ?Originally I used washers that were 1.75" in diameter
with a thickness of .0.1", which also easily deformed. ?I also
used SS nuts and put anti-seize on the keel bolt threads to
prevent galling. ?Lastly I doubled up the washers where
possible, as a single washer easily deformed since the
fiberglass in the bilge was not a level, even surface.
?
This time around, I am using the following:
?
Base washer - 1.75" diameter by 0.1" thickness, 316 SS
Thrust washer - 1.50" diameter by 0.2" thickness, 316 SS
Nut - 3/4 x 10 bronze (to prevent galling per Glen at Sabre)
?
With this setup, I think I will have a much better mating
surface for the nut and the thicker washer will not deform.
?This should make for more accurate torquing and it should hold
better than the thinner washers that deformed. ?I do have some
limitations, however, as not all keel bolts are tall enough for
the 0.3" thickness of both washers, especially the two forward
bolts that have the bonding plates on them. ?Regardless, I am
confident I can make this a better setup that will?properly hold
the load of the keel and withstand the hard environment of the
bilge.
?
Any comments from the members are welcome if you have done
this differently.
?
?
?
--
Tim Dokken
1985 Sabre 32 #59
Bayfield, WI
--
Dave Short
SV One Timer 1997 S362
Mt Desert, ME
|
Tri-Radial Spinnaker and Storm Trysail, 38MKII, on consignment with Bacon Sails in Annapolis.
?
?
n 2023, I left a tri-radial spinnaker and storm trysail on consignment at Bacon Sails in Annapolis.??
?
From previous owner, both of these were for? our 38MKII, we used the spinnaker a couple of times, and never used the trysail. Previous owner may have used the spinnaker, however, as they were sailing in the Newport-Bermuda race, and had sufficient funds, they bought new spinnakers and headsails for each race. They had entered our boat in that race in 1998, and were planning to sell her to the Commodore of the Royal Bermuda Yacht Club after the race, pending sale of his boat. But we saw her and made an offer which was accepted in February 1998, so before the race. (A few weeks after she was in our possession, the RBCY Commodore sold his boat, too late. I later learned he had offered to buyher for $40,000 more than we paid. )
?
Bacon is really tough and honest in evaluating the quality of sails before they will accept them. In 2008, I took 3 Kevlar 150 genoas to Bacon, all three looked ok to me. They rejected two of them, and accepted one, but put it on their website as a practice sail for $25.??
?
If a sail does not sell after some months, they lower the price.? I don't know what they are asking for these, but below are some details from their website.?
?
Gus Wilson, Wings' duet, 1989 38MKII, Hull 147.
?
132=WIAU-1 INSPECTED 02/20/2024?? SPINNAKER, TRI-RADIAL, 0.75 OZ RIP STOP NYLON BY DABNEY SAILS. IN ATN SNUFFER, COLOR GREEN AND YELLOW, PEEL-OFF NUMBERS, NUMBERS ARE STICKY TO THE TOUCH, HAS A FEW SMALL STAINS, 26 LBS. BLUE TURTLE BAG. EXCELLENT.
?
132-WIAU-2, INSPECTED 02/20/24, STORM TRYSAIL, 10 OZ TRIPLE STITCHED DACRON, BY DABNEY SAILS, 7/8¡± EXTERNAL SLIDES, WEBBED TO GROMMETS ON TAPED LUFF, BLUE PEEL OFF NUMBERS, LIGHT SOIL & STAINS, NO BAG.? EXCELLENT.
|
Velcro Beach is not an autocorrect, it is a nickname for Vero Beach amongst cruisers. The municipal marina has an excellent mooring field well protected from all winds and seas. It is used as a hurricane hole. It seems many cruisers get here and have difficulty leaving. For Florida, it is a pleasant location focused mostly on high end tourism, not to the level of West Palm, more upper middle class. Lots of Mercedes, Benzes, a Maserati or two and no carnival rides or spring break shenanigans. Cruisers seem to have a hard time peeling away. We¡¯re on day 5 of a 2 day stay. Happened last time we were here, too. Others have stayed much longer or come for the winter. The boat we¡¯re rafted to has been here 2 months and will stay another 2 months or so.
There are worse places to be.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
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On Mar 19, 2025, at 11:12?PM, Bill Kellner via groups.io <bkellner48@...> wrote:
Hi Dave, Glad it worked out. Hopefully you can get unstuck from ¡°Velcro Beach¡± and get over to the Bahamas. I hate autocorrect. Bill Kellner S32 Sandusky Ohio On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 8:33?PM David Lochner via <davelochner= [email protected]> wrote: We all like bashing insurance companies, or so it seems and for 41 years I¡¯ve not had any complaint about BoatUS insurance, until this week. In the end, everything worked out, the process just sucked.
We have been working our way to the Bahamas since last summer. Our current coverage included Inland and Coastal waters of the US and Canada out to ?75 nm so long as I didn¡¯t enter waters governed by any other nation. Since the Bahamas were on our agenda, I called GEICO last October to inquire about any specific requirements for us to get a Bahamas endorsement as Second Star is celebrating her 32nd birthday. I was told I would need a Valuation and Condition survey that could be done in or out of the water. Fine and consistent with their policy to havre all 30+ year old boats surveyed.
We are now in Velcro Beach and looking at a weather window for crossing next week. On Monday I called GEICO to request the Bahamas endorsement and was told I now needed a survey and?a rigging inspection. I just about blew a gasket but managed to maintain some self-control. After informing the agent I had called last fall and no mention was made of a rigging survey they tried to locate the call and couldn¡¯t find it, or so they say, and denied my request for the endorsement. I did inform them I had been a customer for 41 years with no claims, had a 6 week old survey that found the boat in average or above condition with the recommendations for corrections being ¡°none currently¡±.? I informed them the rigging was replaced 5 years ago, however the recipes were 1,000 miles away. The request was kicked up a level and the supervisor said no.
I was able to download my call records from ATT and there I found a call I made to BoatUS Insurance on Oct 14. I called them back and gave the agent this specific information and was denied again, although he did connect me with a kind supervisor who actually listened to my argument, 41 years of no claims, recent excellent survey, prior experience sailing to the Bahamas, nand repeated suggestions I would be looking for new insurance provider. She was sympathetic and agreed to review it with the next level of management and get back to me with the decision.
Under some domestic pressure to follow up I called again and was told it had been reviewed by management and was denied. I was perhaps a bit more force full in my response suggesting a change in providers and a complaint to the NY Insurance Commission. Shortly there after I received a call from GEICO on a private line, unfortunately I was helping another boat unjam an in-mast furler. I returned the call to voice mail. An hour so later the kindly manager I had spoken called me and said they would provide the Bahamas endorsement. It was the hardest I've ever worked to spend $20, the cost of a 2 month endorsement.
The lessons from the tribulation are simple:
- Record the exact date and time of any inquires made about your policy. A cell phone makes this easier because that information (at least on ATT) is readily availble on their website.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a survey.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a rigging survey
- Be firm in your dealings
- Loyalty does pay off
I believe loyalty and knowing the precise date and time of any contact made the case for my appeal. Had I known a rigging survey was needed, I would have had one done.?
Forewarned is forearmed. Hope this is helpful to others planning similar trips.
Dave
|
The timing has to do with the renewal date and when the last survey was conducted. They wanted surveys within the last 5 years for boats over 30 years old. My renewal date is in October. Second Star is a 1993 boat, so in October 2023 she was not over 30 years old. In October 2024, she was 31 and needed a survey before they would renew the insurance in 2025.?
When I asked about the need for a rigging survey I was told there was an increasing rate of rig failures on old boats going to the Bahamas. As important as it is, rigging is often neglected. I¡¯m surprised by how many sailors don¡¯t know how to tune their rig.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
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On Mar 20, 2025, at 7:35?AM, Pete Waterson via groups.io <peterjwaterson@...> wrote:
A timely tip, so I thank you for that Dave.?
I received my email from Geico earlier this year and a reminder yesterday. Not sure how they do the math on calculating age, I¡¯ve had the boat insured with Boat US/Geico almost 5 years now, the boat is now 35 going on 36 YO and this is my first notice that a survey is required.?
I have my survey coming up in a couple of weeks and I¡¯ll be sure to ask about the exact nature of the survey.
?
?
--
Pete Waterson
¡°°ä³ó²¹°ù»å´Ç²Ô²Ô²¹²â¡±
S38-2
Oriental, NC
|
A timely tip, so I thank you for that Dave.?
I received my email from Geico earlier this year and a reminder yesterday. Not sure how they do the math on calculating age, I¡¯ve had the boat insured with Boat US/Geico almost 5 years now, the boat is now 35 going on 36 YO and this is my first notice that a survey is required.?
I have my survey coming up in a couple of weeks and I¡¯ll be sure to ask about the exact nature of the survey.
?
?
--
Pete Waterson
¡°°ä³ó²¹°ù»å´Ç²Ô²Ô²¹²â¡±
S38-2
Oriental, NC
|
There is a thread on this topic for S402s from Feb ¡®21. I ended up going w Spinlock and coring, glassing, drilling and bedding 2 new deck organizers. I had to remove the ceiling strips but not the headliner. They are working great w no signs of wear. Here¡¯s the link:
?
/g/SabreSailboat/message/79168
--
Jim Kerney
SV/Blown Away S402
Cape Elizabeth, Maine
~~(\_~~~~(\_~~~~(\_~~
Creator of PedPox for Cruisers
jimkerney@...
|
Back in 2023, I put on all new SS washers and SS nuts for my keel bolts, and since then my boat has been only in fresh water. ?What I found out less than two years later, is that my washers are already pitting and degrading, which was quit surprising. I am guessing the Marina sold me 18-8 washers instead of 316, so I am now in the process of replacing all nuts and washers yet again. ?Originally I used washers that were 1.75" in diameter with a thickness of .0.1", which also easily deformed. ?I also used SS nuts and put anti-seize on the keel bolt threads to prevent galling. ?Lastly I doubled up the washers where possible, as a single washer easily deformed since the fiberglass in the bilge was not a level, even surface.
?
This time around, I am using the following:
?
Base washer - 1.75" diameter by 0.1" thickness, 316 SS
Thrust washer - 1.50" diameter by 0.2" thickness, 316 SS
Nut - 3/4 x 10 bronze (to prevent galling per Glen at Sabre)
?
With this setup, I think I will have a much better mating surface for the nut and the thicker washer will not deform. ?This should make for more accurate torquing and it should hold better than the thinner washers that deformed. ?I do have some limitations, however, as not all keel bolts are tall enough for the 0.3" thickness of both washers, especially the two forward bolts that have the bonding plates on them. ?Regardless, I am confident I can make this a better setup that will?properly hold the load of the keel and withstand the hard environment of the bilge.
?
Any comments from the members are welcome if you have done this differently.
?
?
?
--
Tim Dokken
1985 Sabre 32 #59
Bayfield, WI
|
Hi Dave, Glad it worked out. Hopefully you can get unstuck from ¡°Velcro Beach¡± and get over to the Bahamas. I hate autocorrect. Bill Kellner S32 Sandusky Ohio
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 8:33?PM David Lochner via <davelochner= [email protected]> wrote: We all like bashing insurance companies, or so it seems and for 41 years I¡¯ve not had any complaint about BoatUS insurance, until this week. In the end, everything worked out, the process just sucked.
We have been working our way to the Bahamas since last summer. Our current coverage included Inland and Coastal waters of the US and Canada out to ?75 nm so long as I didn¡¯t enter waters governed by any other nation. Since the Bahamas were on our agenda, I called GEICO last October to inquire about any specific requirements for us to get a Bahamas endorsement as Second Star is celebrating her 32nd birthday. I was told I would need a Valuation and Condition survey that could be done in or out of the water. Fine and consistent with their policy to havre all 30+ year old boats surveyed.
We are now in Velcro Beach and looking at a weather window for crossing next week. On Monday I called GEICO to request the Bahamas endorsement and was told I now needed a survey and?a rigging inspection. I just about blew a gasket but managed to maintain some self-control. After informing the agent I had called last fall and no mention was made of a rigging survey they tried to locate the call and couldn¡¯t find it, or so they say, and denied my request for the endorsement. I did inform them I had been a customer for 41 years with no claims, had a 6 week old survey that found the boat in average or above condition with the recommendations for corrections being ¡°none currently¡±.? I informed them the rigging was replaced 5 years ago, however the recipes were 1,000 miles away. The request was kicked up a level and the supervisor said no.
I was able to download my call records from ATT and there I found a call I made to BoatUS Insurance on Oct 14. I called them back and gave the agent this specific information and was denied again, although he did connect me with a kind supervisor who actually listened to my argument, 41 years of no claims, recent excellent survey, prior experience sailing to the Bahamas, nand repeated suggestions I would be looking for new insurance provider. She was sympathetic and agreed to review it with the next level of management and get back to me with the decision.
Under some domestic pressure to follow up I called again and was told it had been reviewed by management and was denied. I was perhaps a bit more force full in my response suggesting a change in providers and a complaint to the NY Insurance Commission. Shortly there after I received a call from GEICO on a private line, unfortunately I was helping another boat unjam an in-mast furler. I returned the call to voice mail. An hour so later the kindly manager I had spoken called me and said they would provide the Bahamas endorsement. It was the hardest I've ever worked to spend $20, the cost of a 2 month endorsement.
The lessons from the tribulation are simple:
- Record the exact date and time of any inquires made about your policy. A cell phone makes this easier because that information (at least on ATT) is readily availble on their website.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a survey.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a rigging survey
- Be firm in your dealings
- Loyalty does pay off
I believe loyalty and knowing the precise date and time of any contact made the case for my appeal. Had I known a rigging survey was needed, I would have had one done.?
Forewarned is forearmed. Hope this is helpful to others planning similar trips.
Dave
|
Hi Dave,?
It is sad to read your dealings with Geico but not too surprising - true, loyalty helps but only so much, we are just a number on a file, I think what may have helped is your threat to complain to the Insurance commission as big companies do not want any bad rep with regulatory agencies, I am glad it finally worked out for you.?
A few years ago I got scammed by a local ATT store manager before he left town, I wasn¡¯t able to have it resolved at the store so I started calling ATT customer service, I spent an accumulated 20 hrs with several reps and their supervisors but couldn¡¯t get it solved, they knew what tactic to use and everyone was using it. Finally, I sent complaints to CFPB, BBB, and drafted a letter to the CEO showing all the call logs totaling over 20 hrs, their scam bills, and my job title and hourly pay, I threatened to sue in local court for the actual loss of pay and some extra for stress and headaches, even threatened to send the letter to local media outlets - a week later I got a call from the CFO of ATT, he cancelled remaining payments for our 2 new iPhones and fixed our bill amount to half of what it was supposed to be for 2 years, he just asked me to pull the complaint from BBB which I did, he even gave me his direct line and asked to call him if the bill amount changed, I didn¡¯t need to as it was good. We enjoyed the lower bill for 2 years and then I changed to T-Mobile, I still couldn¡¯t get over those 20 hrs of stress.?
Darshan Manhasset Bay
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Show quoted text
On Mar 19, 2025, at 8:33?PM, David Lochner via groups.io <davelochner@...> wrote:
? We all like bashing insurance companies, or so it seems and for 41 years I¡¯ve not had any complaint about BoatUS insurance, until this week. In the end, everything worked out, the process just sucked.
We have been working our way to the Bahamas since last summer. Our current coverage included Inland and Coastal waters of the US and Canada out to ?75 nm so long as I didn¡¯t enter waters governed by any other nation. Since the Bahamas were on our agenda, I called GEICO last October to inquire about any specific requirements for us to get a Bahamas endorsement as Second Star is celebrating her 32nd birthday. I was told I would need a Valuation and Condition survey that could be done in or out of the water. Fine and consistent with their policy to havre all 30+ year old boats surveyed.
We are now in Velcro Beach and looking at a weather window for crossing next week. On Monday I called GEICO to request the Bahamas endorsement and was told I now needed a survey and?a rigging inspection. I just about blew a gasket but managed to maintain some self-control. After informing the agent I had called last fall and no mention was made of a rigging survey they tried to locate the call and couldn¡¯t find it, or so they say, and denied my request for the endorsement. I did inform them I had been a customer for 41 years with no claims, had a 6 week old survey that found the boat in average or above condition with the recommendations for corrections being ¡°none currently¡±. ?I informed them the rigging was replaced 5 years ago, however the recipes were 1,000 miles away. The request was kicked up a level and the supervisor said no.
I was able to download my call records from ATT and there I found a call I made to BoatUS Insurance on Oct 14. I called them back and gave the agent this specific information and was denied again, although he did connect me with a kind supervisor who actually listened to my argument, 41 years of no claims, recent excellent survey, prior experience sailing to the Bahamas, nand repeated suggestions I would be looking for new insurance provider. She was sympathetic and agreed to review it with the next level of management and get back to me with the decision.
Under some domestic pressure to follow up I called again and was told it had been reviewed by management and was denied. I was perhaps a bit more force full in my response suggesting a change in providers and a complaint to the NY Insurance Commission. Shortly there after I received a call from GEICO on a private line, unfortunately I was helping another boat unjam an in-mast furler. I returned the call to voice mail. An hour so later the kindly manager I had spoken called me and said they would provide the Bahamas endorsement. It was the hardest I've ever worked to spend $20, the cost of a 2 month endorsement.
The lessons from the tribulation are simple:
- Record the exact date and time of any inquires made about your policy. A cell phone makes this easier because that information (at least on ATT) is readily availble on their website.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a survey.
- If your boat is 30 years old expect to need a rigging survey
- Be firm in your dealings
- Loyalty does pay off
I believe loyalty and knowing the precise date and time of any contact made the case for my appeal. Had I known a rigging survey was needed, I would have had one done.?
Forewarned is forearmed. Hope this is helpful to others planning similar trips.
Dave
|
David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME
Pete Waterson
Jim Kerney - SV/Blown Away - Sabre 402
Tim Dokken
Darshan