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Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Greg Arnold wrote:
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"According to the internet, one drip each second adds up to about 5 gallons in 24 hours."
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Thanks, Greg. That's 86,400 drops per day. I was having the same sort of thought and figured that the stuffing box did not come close to 1 drip per second, but 4 drips per minute was likely at the dock. That would equate to a maximum of almost 6000 drops per day. However, if those 6000 drops are combined with the drips from the toilet and especially the watermaker filter, then it comes much closer to the daily 70,000 drops I would need for the 4 gallons that I have measured to go into the bilge daily. I'm hoping there are no other sources lurking around trying to confirm that I indeed have 70,000 daily drops aboard!
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Augustin
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Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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Scuppers

On Apr 22, 2025, at 9:26?AM, Augustin via groups.io <classical@...> wrote:

Thanks to all. The water is salt. The bilge has several compartments. The forward ones generally don't get water until the one below the engine reaches a certain level. This tells me it's not any of the forward keel bolts since the engine compartments fills first. However, there are some bolts there so those might be a source, but there is also water aft of the engine, aft of the drive shaft stuffing box, and aft of the racor filter. I'm trying to make my way back there.

There has not been any rain here since I wiped the bilge 100% dry last week. I saw puddling around the mast once last year after a heavy rain, but a waterproof wrap around mast boot seems to have corrected that. I drained my water tanks for cleaning during these past few days, so I doubt it's a leaky tank issue, but I'm not dismissing that such an problem might exist to be checked later. Once I resolve the seawater leak I will use water pressure to test the tanks.

I also don't think it's a fuel tank leak because I'm not detecting and diesel and such a large amount would be obvious. I am now standing in the aft cabin and as I work my way further aft I will be lifting the bunk boards to look at AirCon connections, watermaker connections, then scupper connections and rudder stuffing box. Would there be anything else back there to check?
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Thanks again.


--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest

smime.p7s
smime.p7s

Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Augustin -
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For me, it appeared like the flax packing in my stuffing box was very old and had hardened. ?When stopped, it would seal well enough, but when underway I am guessing the vibration started to move the shaft a bit and the Flax packing opened up enough to cause the leak. ?It was not just drips, it was constant drips to point of nearly constant flow of water. ?Sometimes when stopped I would get only 2-3 drips per minute, but not when running. ?
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I will say I also did new motor mounts, a complete shaft alignment, along with the Gore-GFO packing in my stuffing box. ?Now I have the benefit of the simplicity and reliability of a traditional stuffing box over a dripless seal, and yet have no drips with the Gore-GFO packing. ?Best of both worlds.
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--
Tim Dokken
1985 Sabre 32 #59
Bayfield, WI
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Tim Dokken wrote:
"Lastly, look at your stuffing box for your prop shaft. ?When my boat was docked, my stuffing box either slightly dripped or did not leak at all. ?When underway, however, it ran like a faucet. ?Replaced the packing with Gore-GFO packing and no more leaks."
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Tim; That's very interesting and I never considered that sitting at the dock and being underway would make such a difference, but I guess I can see that there is no need for any drips if the shaft is not actually in use and could require more than just a few when underway. I guess the amount of flow is a regulated function of the design? I'm going to look into this more when I manage to get dry docked.
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Augustin
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Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

According to the internet, one drip each second adds up to about 5 gallons in 24 hours.

On 4/22/2025 12:06 PM, Augustin via groups.io wrote:
I believe I have found the source or at least, found another source. I found that a large canister holding a carbon filter belonging to the watermaker is in serious need of a new cap gasket. The amount of water coming through is closer to a small dribble than just drips. I think that over the span of 24 hours it is conceivable that it could amount to a few gallons.
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

I believe I have found the source or at least, found another source. I found that a large canister holding a carbon filter belonging to the watermaker is in serious need of a new cap gasket. The amount of water coming through is closer to a small dribble than just drips. I think that over the span of 24 hours it is conceivable that it could amount to a few gallons. I saw that there was related a ball valve seacock left in the open position. I closed it and am monitoring it to see if that did the trick. The setup is a bit perplexing because it looks like the aircon is inline with the output of the same seacock. I will need to figure it out and not use the aircon until I know what's going on. The aircon could explain why the valve was left open even though the watermaker was not in use.
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I'm only here for a few more weeks and I hope this problem is solved. Thank you to all. You've been tremendously helpful and generous with your time.
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Augustin
VE7OXS
SV Rhapsody S425 (1990)
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Hi Tim. Thank you for the check list.
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  • All Seacocks.
    They are all seized in the open position. I want to get the boat out of the water to free them, but I don't think they are the source of the leak. They seem dry enough.
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  • Heat exchanger - end caps can crack and gaskets can leak, also there is a drain valve and the anode that can leak
????????? I had the exchanger removed and cleaned last year and it has been operating very well and looks dry
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  • Raw water feed to the raw water pump and heat exchanger
  • Muffler housing
  • Wet exhaust hose
????????? These looked dry when checked last week
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  • Prop shaft/stuffing box
???????? This drips 2-3 drops per minute. Not great, but it's not a problem at this time. I will replace it with a dripless one when it's time.
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  • Prop shaft mounting bolts
  • Rudder shaft stuffing box
???????? I'm still working my way aft to get to this area
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  • Do you draw sea water for your toilet? ?If so check all of those connections.
????????? Yes and there is leaking from there, but it ends up in the shower sump. The Perko filter needs servicing with new gaskets and rods (struts?) Also, the leaking it's not so serious at this time.
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  • Speed/depth sensor thru-hulls
????????? I located the speed thru-hull, but not the depth. There is a lot to go through with this boat and since I live in Canada, I only spend moderate pockets of time (1 month per trip) in Jamaica where I bought the boat.
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Thank you for this!
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Dave G. The exhaust elbow seems to be dry, but it is a concern because it doesn't look like any elbow I can see on any W46 pictures. I would like to look into this further.
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

David G., thank you for the picture. I would love to take a look below the waterline, but here in Montego Bay, there is close to zero services including no haul out. To do that I would need to get a cruising permit to motor 100 miles (24hrs) to Port Antonio where they have a travel lift and chocks, but that's all. No service! That is the bigger part of my problem and why I need to prove that the boat is seaworthy so that I can sail to Panama or, preferably, Eastern US for haul out and service.
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And the nearest chandlery (if you can call it that) is also 100 miles away and ridiculously expensive. I paid $600 USD for a new motor for the Jabsco toilet. This is a frustrating situation that I find myself in.
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Hi Frank. thank you! I have been concerned about it since I bought the boat. Because I noticed that it only leaked for a few minutes then stopped, I decided it was not so serious. However, I did look around for a new elbow and couldn't find one. I have the W46 (2nd version). Do you happen to know where I can get the whole elbow/valve ensemble? I'm pretty sure the elbow on now is not OEM.
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Augustin
SV Rhapsody S425
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

Augustin -
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As mentioned here, if it is salt water in the bilge you have the following sources to consider:
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  • All Seacocks
  • Heat exchanger - end caps can crack and gaskets can leak, also there is a drain valve and the anode that can leak
  • Raw water feed to the raw water pump and heat exchanger
  • Muffler housing
  • Wet exhaust hose
  • Prop shaft/stuffing box
  • Prop shaft mounting bolts
  • Rudder shaft stuffing box
  • Do you draw sea water for your toilet? ?If so check all of those connections.
  • Speed/depth sensor thru-hulls
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With the amount of water you are describing and the difficulty to find the source, I would look closely at your rudder shaft stuffing box. ?Last season my S32 was firing the bilge pump under sail every 30 minutes or so, as the rudder post stuffing box flax packing had failed. ?The leak was not obvious and it drive me nuts trying to find it, the path from the stuffing box done the center of the boat is difficult to trace to say the least. ?I dropped the rudder in the fall to service everything and it is all sealed up and ready for this year. ?
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The next source I would look at is the heat exchanger. ?Since the raw water system post the raw water pump is pressurized, even the smallest leak can equate to large amounts of water.
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Lastly, look at your stuffing box for your prop shaft. ?When my boat was docked, my stuffing box either slightly dripped or did not leak at all. ?When underway, however, it ran like a faucet. ?Replaced the packing with Gore-GFO packing and no more leaks.
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I hope this helps and you find your leak.
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--
Tim Dokken
1985 Sabre 32 #59
Bayfield, WI
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

One way to discover is to use chalk, kids chalk.? Draw lines, circles, around any spot that you can see.??

Edward P. Flanagan
585-330-6154


On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 11:42?AM PIOTR SERWIK via <cuivier1=[email protected]> wrote:
The question if this is fresh or salt water is crucial. I had a water tank leak and recognized it immediately by the smell of water treatment I use. Sabres like to leak rain water, but 4 gallons a day is A LOT. Also, check your keel bolts (if it's salt water). I had a keel bolt leak once - its an easy fix.?
Re: Rebedding old (aluminum frame) fixed ports

 

Don, I can't comment on the cost of powder coating.? A friend/sailor who owns a powder coating shop did it for me.? I would like to know how much this would normally cost so I can gauge how much beer/rum I owe him.? I can say that the finish is very tough.? I handled the frames quite a bit putting them back together and no signs of any chipping or scratching.
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--Andy
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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Exhaust elbow?

Dave G

On Apr 22, 2025, at 2:05 PM, Franz Alvarez via <franz_alvarez@...> wrote:

Also check the wet exhaust muffler box/tank.

Franz Alvarez
SV Tranquility - S38MKII
Mamaroneck, NY?

Get
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Augustin via <classical@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2025 12:59:39 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Very Wet Bilge
?

[Edited Message Follows]

Thanks to all. The water is salt. The bilge has several compartments. The forward ones generally don't get water until the one below the engine reaches a certain level. This tells me it's not any of the forward keel bolts since the engine compartments fills first. However, there are some bolts there too so those might be a source. But there is also water aft of the engine, aft of the drive shaft stuffing box, and aft of the racor filter. I'm trying to make my way back there.

There has not been any rain here since I wiped the bilge 100% dry last week. I saw puddling around the mast once last year after a heavy rain, but a waterproof wrap around mast boot seems to have corrected that. I drained my water tanks for cleaning during these past few days, so I doubt it's a leaky tank issue, but I'm not dismissing that such an problem might exist and will be checked later. Once I resolve the seawater leak I will use the water pressure to test the tanks.

I also don't think it's a fuel tank leak because I'm not detecting any diesel and such a large amount would be obvious. I am now standing in the aft cabin and as I work my way further aft I will be lifting the bunk boards to look at AirCon connections, watermaker connections, then scupper connections and rudder stuffing box. Would there be anything else back there to check?
?
Thanks again.

--
Franz Alvarez
S/V Tranquility - S38MKII

Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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That should be the breather element - basically a check valve. Make sure that it’s working properly. That $10 part can total your engine according to Westerbeke. There should be no leakage.

Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Augustin via groups.io <classical@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2025 1:14:09 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Very Wet Bilge
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I had a bit of work done around the engine last week and everything looked ok. The only leakage I get is for the first several minutes when I start the engine there is a filter on top of the riser elbow valve that leaks seawater. This only amounts to a few ounces and only occurs when the engine is running. I also had the DC refrigeration compressor resealed and charged so there was some fiddling done in the? engine compartment and everything looked good.

--
Franz Alvarez
S/V Tranquility - S38MKII
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

I had a bit of work done around the engine last week and everything looked ok. The only leakage I get is for the first several minutes when I start the engine there is a filter on top of the riser elbow valve that leaks seawater. This only amounts to a few ounces and only occurs when the engine is running. I also had the DC refrigeration compressor resealed and charged so there was some fiddling done in the? engine compartment and everything looked good.
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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Also check the wet exhaust muffler box/tank.

Franz Alvarez
SV Tranquility - S38MKII
Mamaroneck, NY?

Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Augustin via groups.io <classical@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2025 12:59:39 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Very Wet Bilge
?

[Edited Message Follows]

Thanks to all. The water is salt. The bilge has several compartments. The forward ones generally don't get water until the one below the engine reaches a certain level. This tells me it's not any of the forward keel bolts since the engine compartments fills first. However, there are some bolts there too so those might be a source. But there is also water aft of the engine, aft of the drive shaft stuffing box, and aft of the racor filter. I'm trying to make my way back there.

There has not been any rain here since I wiped the bilge 100% dry last week. I saw puddling around the mast once last year after a heavy rain, but a waterproof wrap around mast boot seems to have corrected that. I drained my water tanks for cleaning during these past few days, so I doubt it's a leaky tank issue, but I'm not dismissing that such an problem might exist and will be checked later. Once I resolve the seawater leak I will use the water pressure to test the tanks.

I also don't think it's a fuel tank leak because I'm not detecting any diesel and such a large amount would be obvious. I am now standing in the aft cabin and as I work my way further aft I will be lifting the bunk boards to look at AirCon connections, watermaker connections, then scupper connections and rudder stuffing box. Would there be anything else back there to check?
?
Thanks again.

--
Franz Alvarez
S/V Tranquility - S38MKII
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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sailboat prop strut from www.deepblueyachtsupply.com


Augustin, the strut, which is commonly made of bronze, connects the prop shaft to the hull.

Dave G

On Apr 22, 2025, at 1:57 PM, Augustin via <classical@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi David. I replaced the impeller last year and should still be like new. I don't know 'strut bolt.' Is that the chain plate?
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 
Edited

Hi David. I replaced the impeller last year and should still be like new. I don't know 'strut bolt.' Is that the chain plate?
Re: Very Wet Bilge

 

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I had some salt water intake (extremely small but a contributor) through the strut bolts. ?The ?32 nd of an inch play on the strut caused a hairline crack in the epoxy filler covering where the strut bolts to the hull. ?Raw water impeller leak? ?Through hulls leak? Transducer leak? ?Good luck!

Dave Gerhardt
Serenade 1983 S 34-1 #184
NB, Canada



On Apr 22, 2025, at 1:26 PM, Augustin via <classical@...> wrote:

Thanks to all. The water is salt. The bilge has several compartments. The forward ones generally don't get water until the one below the engine reaches a certain level. This tells me it's not any of the forward keel bolts since the engine compartments fills first. However, there are some bolts there so those might be a source, but there is also water aft of the engine, aft of the drive shaft stuffing box, and aft of the racor filter. I'm trying to make my way back there.

There has not been any rain here since I wiped the bilge 100% dry last week. I saw puddling around the mast once last year after a heavy rain, but a waterproof wrap around mast boot seems to have corrected that. I drained my water tanks for cleaning during these past few days, so I doubt it's a leaky tank issue, but I'm not dismissing that such an problem might exist to be checked later. Once I resolve the seawater leak I will use water pressure to test the tanks.

I also don't think it's a fuel tank leak because I'm not detecting and diesel and such a large amount would be obvious. I am now standing in the aft cabin and as I work my way further aft I will be lifting the bunk boards to look at AirCon connections, watermaker connections, then scupper connections and rudder stuffing box. Would there be anything else back there to check?
?
Thanks again.
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