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So, I built my brother a shari and it's linked to mine pretty much 24/7.? We usually chat while he walks the dog, etc.? Our experience with the range he has is kind of confusing and I'm looking for ideas from you all of what we should be looking at. Here's our experience: Once he gets a certain distance from his house, in any direction, his Shari starts dropping out. The weird thing is his signal is very strong into the Shari and he has no issue receiving my signal from his Shari. Our last test was in a new direction, and when referencing a map, it's only about 500' from his house.? It seems to be about 500' in any direction this starts happening.? Some things we have tried: He will switch HT from 1w out to 5w out - no change
Tried different PL tones
Tried no PL tone at all
Moved shari location to avoid possible interference
Moved shari to 2nd floor
What we have not tried is changing shari frequency.
We're in Wisconsin and the Wisconsin band plan recommends going below 430mhz (don't have it in front of me) for links/hotspots. His Shari is around 425mhz. We have put the Shari antenna on a VNA and noted that it is not optimal for 425mhz, but again, the issue is with the Shari rx, not tx. He can hear the Shari perfectly from further than he can tx into it with 5w.
We've talked about testing a frequency above 430mhz, but does anyone have any other ideas to offer?? I've read a lot of posts about range, and I'm not expecting miles here, just more than 500'.
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A couple of thoughts, in no particular order of relevance:
- You may be running into multipathing beyond what the Shari can handle. I haven't looked too much into the SA818 filtering algorithms, but I've run into this in the past on ISM devices (in and around 433MHz).
- Antenna resonance is more an issue on RX vs. TX. How was RX resonance when you attached the VNA? Was it a nanoVNA or pro gear?
- Is there a distance where it picks up the signal again? At these frequencies, you shouldn't be experiencing destructive interference that broad, but I've seen weirder stuff from RF.?
None of these are Shari-specific, and may well have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Just the first thoughts in my brain.?
Do you have access to an rtl-sdr or similar? That would be an easy, low cost way for your brother to investigate the issue.?
You can use the antenna from the Shari and software like gqrx or sdr# to look at what the incoming signal looks like. If it isn't nice and sharp like?, the problem
exists with his signal. If the signal does look similar, the problem likely exists within the SA818.?
Hope that helps!
Kevin
AD7KM
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On Jul 27, 2022, at 17:58, KB9WOO via groups.io <kb9woo@...> wrote:
?
[This email originated from outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.]
So, I built my brother a shari and it's linked to mine pretty much 24/7.? We usually chat while he walks the dog, etc.? Our experience with the range he has is kind of confusing and I'm looking for ideas from you all of what we should be looking at. Here's
our experience:
Once he gets a certain distance from his house, in any direction, his Shari starts dropping out. The weird thing is his signal is very strong into the Shari and he has no issue receiving my signal from his Shari. Our last test was in a new direction, and when
referencing a map, it's only about 500' from his house.? It seems to be about 500' in any direction this starts happening.?
Some things we have tried:
He will switch HT from 1w out to 5w out - no change
Tried different PL tones
Tried no PL tone at all
Moved shari location to avoid possible interference
Moved shari to 2nd floor
What we have not tried is changing shari frequency.
We're in Wisconsin and the Wisconsin band plan recommends going below 430mhz (don't have it in front of me) for links/hotspots. His Shari is around 425mhz. We have put the Shari antenna on a VNA and noted that it is not optimal for 425mhz, but again, the issue
is with the Shari rx, not tx. He can hear the Shari perfectly from further than he can tx into it with 5w.
We've talked about testing a frequency above 430mhz, but does anyone have any other ideas to offer?? I've read a lot of posts about range, and I'm not expecting miles here, just more than 500'.
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I guess I was thinking that antenna resonance would be less an issue on rx, like using a random length of wire to rx. But now that you got me thinking about it, Rx is usually better with a ground plane (e.g.efficient antenna), so what you're saying makes sense.?
The VNA showed the stock Shari antenna was resonant In the 430+ portion of the 70cm band.
I do have an rtl-sdr. He is using a Yaesu 65r so I'd expect the signal to be decent enough.?
Appreciate your feedback. I think we should change the frequency and do some more tests.?
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Try another antenna at the Shari. The supplied antenna has a small capture area. As usual, never enough information is given in the complaint regarding the enviroment the SHARI is in.? My Shari sits on a 4 drawer file cabinet in my ham shack. I live in a log cabin that's on a cement slab. So literally my SHARI is out in the open and HAAT is 5 feet.? I live on a 25 acre cattle ranch. I can go anywhere on the ranch and beyond and my SHARI works fine. At the hamfests I see guys selling 7 inch and 14 inch long dual band SMA duckies. I've never needed one, I also have a "test" antenna, an old mobile dual band antenna with 4 radials at 15-18 feet on top of my roof. It is fed with 25 feet RG-58 and has BNC's. I use that to hit a few repeaters I can't get into with just a HT in the house. I've never tried it with my SHARI but would expect my SHARI range to increase dramatically.
Years ago? MOTOROLA had a "range formula".. for land mobile base installations... It was HAAT ( Height Above Average Terrain) in feet? times the square root of 2, gives coverage distance in miles. Now MOTOROLA never used rubber ducks on land mobile base stations.. believe it was unity gain antennas.
5 feet HAAT = 5 times the square root of 2 = 5 x 1.414 = 7 miles
18 feet HAAT = 18 times the square root of 2 = 18 x 1.414 = 25 miles
Quite a difference in range raising that antenna 12 feet.higher makes. That's proven with my HT's when I use it for distant repeaters.
BTW- regarding going below 430 mhz.. I disagree. Most Amateur? FM HT's? are designed to go to 440-450... 446.00 is the National simplex and I've found hot spots there, listening on my Big antenna at 55 feet. Also 446.50? Personally I keep my hot spots- SHARI ar 440.00 and 440.440.. neither are ban planned as repeater inputs or outputs. The Wisconsin kilocycle cops aren't going to arrest me operating there..
The lowest frequency repeater in the area is mine at 442.00-447.00 so 440.00 to 442.00 is a wasteland in my area.. A repeater at 441 ranfe woul dhave an output at 446 and thats condidered simplex area..
Final thought -is there some low level RFI at the house that's raising his noise floor at the frequency your operating on. See if you club has a member with a TinySA.($50). and see what the noise floor is out in the middle of no where, versus the SHARI location. Also what is the SHARI squelch set at? You might play with that (software program in the RPI.
Larry W8LM
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Have you tried a better antenna attached to the Shari?
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On Jul 27, 2022, at 19:58, KB9WOO via groups.io <kb9woo@...> wrote:
?So, I built my brother a shari and it's linked to mine pretty much 24/7.? We usually chat while he walks the dog, etc.? Our experience with the range he has is kind of confusing and I'm looking for ideas from you all of what we should be looking
at. Here's our experience:
Once he gets a certain distance from his house, in any direction, his Shari starts dropping out. The weird thing is his signal is very strong into the Shari and he has no issue receiving my signal from his Shari. Our last test was in a new direction, and when
referencing a map, it's only about 500' from his house.? It seems to be about 500' in any direction this starts happening.?
Some things we have tried:
He will switch HT from 1w out to 5w out - no change
Tried different PL tones
Tried no PL tone at all
Moved shari location to avoid possible interference
Moved shari to 2nd floor
What we have not tried is changing shari frequency.
We're in Wisconsin and the Wisconsin band plan recommends going below 430mhz (don't have it in front of me) for links/hotspots. His Shari is around 425mhz. We have put the Shari antenna on a VNA and noted that it is not optimal for 425mhz, but again, the issue
is with the Shari rx, not tx. He can hear the Shari perfectly from further than he can tx into it with 5w.
We've talked about testing a frequency above 430mhz, but does anyone have any other ideas to offer?? I've read a lot of posts about range, and I'm not expecting miles here, just more than 500'.
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We are going to play around with another antenna and see what that does.
Larry - are you using the stock antenna on your Shari or something else?? We changed the frequency above 430 and increased the range but not by much and he still had to bump up power.? I am also going to check my soldering work.
I also misspoke about the HT power levels earlier.? .5w and 2.5w, not 1w and 5w.? Though we did test at 5w today - at a distance 500mw or less bubble pack radios would work perfectly.
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What do you expect from a low power, low height, 440 transmitter?
I'm happy mine makes it from one side of my condo building to the
other. Mostly works to the stairwell on the other side from me.
My EchoLink -L has a full 2 watts and works to the McDonalds a half
mile away.
And that's on a beam that was pointed that way!
On 2022-07-28 15:47, KB9WOO wrote:
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We are going to play around with another antenna and see what that
does.
Larry - are you using the stock antenna on your Shari or something
else?? We changed the frequency above 430 and increased the range
but not by much and he still had to bump up power.? I am also
going to check my soldering work.
I also misspoke about the HT power levels earlier.? .5w and 2.5w,
not 1w and 5w.? Though we did test at 5w today - at a distance
500mw or less bubble pack radios would work perfectly.
_._,_._,_
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I have a Shari Pi3U configured to 445.550Mhz. I replaced the stock unity gain antenna with an MFJ 1717S mounted in the MFJ mag mount that sits on the window sill of the 2nd story of the duplex I live in. I have a range of about 5.5km (3.3mi) in three directions that the antenna has line of site. Power output is the max 400mW. You can see photos and a description on my QRZ profile.
73 75 de VE3JMR
Mark
Port Colborne, Ontario,?CANADA
? |??Echolink Node# 736666
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Yeah, you can pretty much forget using anything in the 440/450
range here in the NYC metro area. Even 430 is pretty crowded with
digital hotspots and even some DMR repeaters with odd splits. One
of them even has a 13 mHz split!
We have coordinated repeaters starting at 440.0 going all the way
to 449.975 in a 50 mile radius, plus and minus are covered, and
some odd splits, too. Also, some things that are not listed
anywhere but still exist. Never mind that lots of them are either
off the air or unused. The default frequency for the SHARI U
(446.1) is a local repeater input for a machine in Brooklyn. I
have actually heard a couple of, I'm pretty sure they were? SHARI
users find that out the hard way.
I'm running my UHF SHARI at 433.5 mHz, because it's about the
only place I don't have noise from something else, or that isn't
parked in the satellite, EME or weak station bandplan. Even then,
I've had occasional noise from someone's digital hotspot. VHF
actually works a little better here for nodes, except there is
more local noise on the high end of the band in my neighborhood,
so I have to stick around 144.3 or 144.9 mHz where there aren't
repeater inputs.
I do use a long rubber duck on my SHARI though. In this house,
anyway, it makes a huge difference.
On 7/28/2022 9:01 AM, Larry Macionski
via groups.io wrote:
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Show quoted text
Try another antenna at the Shari. The supplied antenna has a small
capture area. As usual, never enough information is given in the
complaint regarding the enviroment the SHARI is in.? My Shari sits
on a 4 drawer file cabinet in my ham shack. I live in a log cabin
that's on a cement slab. So literally my SHARI is out in the open
and HAAT is 5 feet.? I live on a 25 acre cattle ranch. I can go
anywhere on the ranch and beyond and my SHARI works fine. At the
hamfests I see guys selling 7 inch and 14 inch long dual band SMA
duckies. I've never needed one, I also have a "test" antenna, an
old mobile dual band antenna with 4 radials at 15-18 feet on top
of my roof. It is fed with 25 feet RG-58 and has BNC's. I use that
to hit a few repeaters I can't get into with just a HT in the
house. I've never tried it with my SHARI but would expect my SHARI
range to increase dramatically.
Years ago? MOTOROLA had a "range formula".. for land mobile base
installations... It was HAAT ( Height Above Average Terrain) in
feet? times the square root of 2, gives coverage distance in
miles. Now MOTOROLA never used rubber ducks on land mobile base
stations.. believe it was unity gain antennas.
5 feet HAAT = 5 times the square root of 2 = 5 x 1.414 = 7 miles
18 feet HAAT = 18 times the square root of 2 = 18 x 1.414 = 25
miles
Quite a difference in range raising that antenna 12 feet.higher
makes. That's proven with my HT's when I use it for distant
repeaters.
BTW- regarding going below 430 mhz.. I disagree. Most Amateur? FM
HT's? are designed to go to 440-450... 446.00 is the National
simplex and I've found hot spots there, listening on my Big
antenna at 55 feet. Also 446.50? Personally I keep my hot spots-
SHARI ar 440.00 and 440.440.. neither are ban planned as repeater
inputs or outputs. The Wisconsin kilocycle cops aren't going to
arrest me operating there..
The lowest frequency repeater in the area is mine at 442.00-447.00
so 440.00 to 442.00 is a wasteland in my area.. A repeater at 441
ranfe woul dhave an output at 446 and thats condidered simplex
area..
Final thought -is there some low level RFI at the house that's
raising his noise floor at the frequency your operating on. See if
you club has a member with a TinySA.($50). and see what the noise
floor is out in the middle of no where, versus the SHARI location.
Also what is the SHARI squelch set at? You might play with that
(software program in the RPI.
Larry W8LM
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I'm not trying to get miles, but I am expecting comparable range to a 300-500mw FRS radio.? When you can see your house and hear your node full quieting, I'd expect to be able to hit it just fine.? That's where I'm at with it.
I appreciate all your feedback.? He stuck a mag mount on it yesterday but I'm not sure that he had a chance to try it out.? I still want to verify the solder job I did, too.
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Just curious..? Did you check the squelch setting in the programming of the Shari? ? Rich ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of KB9WOO
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2022 8:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SHARI] Shari receive issue Pi4U ? I'm not trying to get miles, but I am expecting comparable range to a 300-500mw FRS radio.? When you can see your house and hear your node full quieting, I'd expect to be able to hit it just fine.? That's where I'm at with it.
I appreciate all your feedback.? He stuck a mag mount on it yesterday but I'm not sure that he had a chance to try it out.? I still want to verify the solder job I did, too.
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On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 09:17 PM, KB9WOO wrote:
Larry - are you using the stock antenna on your Shari or something else??
Shari supplied stock antenna.. Larry W8LM Mulvane, Kansas
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I would check try stub antenna on the Shari.? Also adding a couterpoise might help.? Or add in a simple 1/4 wave if possible.
Changing the HT power will only help is the Shari was not receiving.
I too am I Wisconsin. In my case I am in a rural setting. I have my HT set to 500 miliwatts. This is also a UHF Shari and I am on 445.00 mhz.? The node sits on a shelf in my second floor room. I am seeing over 1/2 mile with solid coverage.?
The question is how much power is your Shari putting out? Should be 400-500 milliwatts.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 7:58 PM KB9WOO < kb9woo@...> wrote: So, I built my brother a shari and it's linked to mine pretty much 24/7.? We usually chat while he walks the dog, etc.? Our experience with the range he has is kind of confusing and I'm looking for ideas from you all of what we should be looking at. Here's our experience:
Once he gets a certain distance from his house, in any direction, his Shari starts dropping out. The weird thing is his signal is very strong into the Shari and he has no issue receiving my signal from his Shari. Our last test was in a new direction, and when referencing a map, it's only about 500' from his house.? It seems to be about 500' in any direction this starts happening.?
Some things we have tried:
He will switch HT from 1w out to 5w out - no change
Tried different PL tones
Tried no PL tone at all
Moved shari location to avoid possible interference
Moved shari to 2nd floor
What we have not tried is changing shari frequency.
We're in Wisconsin and the Wisconsin band plan recommends going below 430mhz (don't have it in front of me) for links/hotspots. His Shari is around 425mhz. We have put the Shari antenna on a VNA and noted that it is not optimal for 425mhz, but again, the issue is with the Shari rx, not tx. He can hear the Shari perfectly from further than he can tx into it with 5w.
We've talked about testing a frequency above 430mhz, but does anyone have any other ideas to offer?? I've read a lot of posts about range, and I'm not expecting miles here, just more than 500'.
|
Shari squelch is set to 1, the default from the how-to instructions. I assume 0 would be open and we don't want that, right?
Haven't tested the power out of the Shari.? The issue seems to be the Shari rx, though. Tx is great. Can hear the Shari further than the Shari can hear us. OR, Rx is not the issue at all and it's something else, but not sure what that would be. Often when he's dropping out, the bits that do get through sound solid. Solid enough that I suspected a PL tone decode issue, but removing a PL didn't resolve.?
I only mentioned Wisconsin because of the band plan recommendations and where the antenna seems resonate based on the nanovna results.? I also was slightly wrong. WI band plan recommends 420-432. Antenna is resonate at 430 and up. Frequency has been changed to 431.
This isn't a super serious issue, of course. It's more curiosity and that we'd like a few more blocks out of it. I also don't think there is anything "wrong" with the Shari itself, other then some potential cold solder joints on the sma which I have yet to check.?
Might get a test in today/tonight at some point, as it's now in a new location with a mag mount on an old metal vending machine (not in use).?
I keep my node on a shelf in the basement and never did any kind of "range testing" since... well, it's in the basement. But feel free to drop in anytime to node 55582.
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RX issues are probably going to be exacerbated by local noise generation.? LEDs, switching power supplies, pool pumps, and some wall warts can desense the receive
on the unit as its not heavily filtered and really doesn’t need to be.? I am sure the power supply has the ferrite on it at this point in the conversation but there could be others that are flooding the shack and making the shari deaf.
?
-Michael
?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Scott Strecker
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2022 12:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SHARI] Shari receive issue Pi4U
?
I would check try stub antenna on the Shari.? Also adding a couterpoise might help.? Or add in a simple 1/4 wave if possible.
Changing the HT power will only help is the Shari was not receiving.
I too am I Wisconsin. In my case I am in a rural setting. I have my HT set to 500 miliwatts. This is also a UHF Shari and I am on 445.00 mhz.? The node sits on a shelf in my second floor room. I am seeing over 1/2 mile with solid coverage.?
The question is how much power is your Shari putting out? Should be 400-500 milliwatts.
?
On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 7:58 PM KB9WOO <kb9woo@...> wrote:
So, I built my brother a shari and it's linked to mine pretty much 24/7.? We usually chat while he walks the dog, etc.? Our experience with the range he has is kind of confusing and I'm looking for ideas from you all of what we should be
looking at. Here's our experience:
Once he gets a certain distance from his house, in any direction, his Shari starts dropping out. The weird thing is his signal is very strong into the Shari and he has no issue receiving my signal from his Shari. Our last test was in a new direction, and when
referencing a map, it's only about 500' from his house.? It seems to be about 500' in any direction this starts happening.?
Some things we have tried:
He will switch HT from 1w out to 5w out - no change
Moved shari location to avoid possible interference
Moved shari to 2nd floor
What we have not tried is changing shari frequency.
We're in Wisconsin and the Wisconsin band plan recommends going below 430mhz (don't have it in front of me) for links/hotspots. His Shari is around 425mhz. We have put the Shari antenna on a VNA and noted that it is not optimal for 425mhz, but again, the issue
is with the Shari rx, not tx. He can hear the Shari perfectly from further than he can tx into it with 5w.
We've talked about testing a frequency above 430mhz, but does anyone have any other ideas to offer?? I've read a lot of posts about range, and I'm not expecting miles here, just more than 500'.
--
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Hey Michael,
That's a good point! It does have the ferrite, but who knows what else is nearby.?
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You could set squelch to 0 IF you had a subcarrier tone (PL or DCS) set, I would imagine, but set at one sounds good to me.
I think the point of the question to to rule out a crazy high squelch limiting the receive on the SHARI.
Ken, N2VIP
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On Jul 29, 2022, at 18:18, KB9WOO <kb9woo@...> wrote:
Shari squelch is set to 1, the default from the how-to instructions. I assume 0 would be open and we don't want that, right?
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I have noticed that, even with the Squelch open as far as I can go with TSQL, The hysteresis is still quite high, or something. Even a still relatively good signal coming into the node, just listening, I’d say somewhere in the middle of the scale, will drop out completely sometimes when there is still plenty of room for error. I have not extensively tested this with DCS, since I don’t really like the way DCS on the SA818 works.
Sent from my zippo
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On Jul 29, 2022, at 22:45, Ken N2VIP <ken@...> wrote:
?You could set squelch to 0 IF you had a subcarrier tone (PL or DCS) set, I would imagine, but set at one sounds good to me.
I think the point of the question to to rule out a crazy high squelch limiting the receive on the SHARI.
Ken, N2VIP
On Jul 29, 2022, at 18:18, KB9WOO <kb9woo@...> wrote:
Shari squelch is set to 1, the default from the how-to instructions. I assume 0 would be open and we don't want that, right?
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I just uploaded a new version (SA818-prog2.01.py) of the SA818-prog program to the files section of this group.? It adds a new feature to allow you to read the RSSI (Receive Signal Strength Indication) of SHARI.? You add a space then "-r" flag (without quotes) to the end of the command invoking the program.? This will allow you to see if you have interfering signals and look at signal stength of the received signal.? This update is the work of En - KI5KQB.
Steve - N8AR
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I'm not clear how I would "see if (I) have interfering signals" or look at the signal strength of the received signal - where will this be displayed, on the console output? Ken, N2VIP
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On Jul 30, 2022, at 08:17, N8AR <n8ar73@...> wrote:
?I just uploaded a new version (SA818-prog2.01.py) of the SA818-prog program to the files section of this group.? It adds a new feature to allow you to read the RSSI (Receive Signal Strength Indication) of SHARI.? You add a space then "-r" flag (without quotes) to the end of the command invoking the program.? This will allow you to see if you have interfering signals and look at signal stength of the received signal.? This update is the work of En - KI5KQB.
Steve - N8AR
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Larry Macionski
Scott, KB3JQQ
Mark VE3JMR
Michael Champion
Steve-N8AR