Re: Unknown Manufacturer or Custom Built Diesel
If it is entirely brass maybe Loco Workshop and outfit from NJ that was owned by a man named Jan Lorenson. He did mostly O scale brass kits but did venture into S scale for a while coming out with about 12 kits total as I recall. Bill
On Tuesday, April 8, 2025 at 10:48:27 PM EDT, John Keating via groups.io <keating.j.t.43@...> wrote:
A number of years ago I bought this unit that was powered using Miller Labs trucks. I used the power trucks to make an S-2 with 4 powered axles. Just curious if anyone has any idea where this shell was made.
John Keating
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To all: My apologies if the recent email that I thought I had sent privately to an individual winds up in this large group's inbox. Rance Velapoldi
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Unknown Manufacturer or Custom Built Diesel
A number of years ago I bought this unit that was powered using Miller Labs trucks. I used the power trucks to make an S-2 with 4 powered axles. Just curious if anyone has any idea where this shell was made.
John Keating
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May I offer an observation:? Since these layouts are always built into a limited space, the size of the outer loop of track is determined first, and then inner loops are squeezed into whatever space remains.? If the innermost sections and loops of track were laid down first, I would suspect that it would be much easier to add whole and half lengths of track to compose outer loops that fit because the percentage errors would be smaller and less observable. ?? ? Jerry F. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Sextro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2025 2:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [S-Trains] Gilbert track plan? Since this was 1940, the track was three-rail, I wonder if the track dimensions for the Flyer prewar track were the same as for the postwar two-rail, e.g 19" radius curves (as Tom S recently pointed out, that's basically the centerline radius) and 10" long straight sections...?? ? On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:28?AM Robert Graves via <theupstairstrain=[email protected]> wrote: Interesting. That one has four straight tracks on both ends, but it also doesn't correctly reflect the need for custom cut pieces on the ends and the inside loops.
On Apr 6, 2025, at 9:51?AM, atkinson.railroad via <atkinson.railroad=[email protected]> wrote: ? Here is a different No. 10 track layout from 1940 instructions that uses just one “half straight” section. Required space is slightly different than the 1949 Instructions booklet. ? ? ? John D. Atkinson Newaygo, Michigan
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Since this was 1940, the track was three-rail, I wonder if the track dimensions for the Flyer prewar track were the same as for the postwar two-rail, e.g. 19" radius curves (as Tom S recently pointed out, that's basically the centerline radius) and 10" long straight sections...??
On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:28?AM Robert Graves via <theupstairstrain= [email protected]> wrote: Interesting. That one has four straight tracks on both ends, but it also doesn't correctly reflect the need for custom cut pieces on the ends and the inside loops.
Bob Graves On Apr 6, 2025, at 9:51?AM, atkinson.railroad via <atkinson.railroad=[email protected]> wrote:
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Here is a different No. 10 track layout from 1940 instructions that uses just one “half straight” section.
Required space is slightly different than the 1949 Instructions booklet.
?
<NO 10 80X120.jpg>
?
?
John D. Atkinson
Newaygo, Michigan
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Interesting. That one has four straight tracks on both ends, but it also doesn't correctly reflect the need for custom cut pieces on the ends and the inside loops.
Bob Graves
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On Apr 6, 2025, at 9:51?AM, atkinson.railroad via groups.io <atkinson.railroad@...> wrote:
?
Here is a different No. 10 track layout from 1940 instructions that uses just one “half straight” section.
Required space is slightly different than the 1949 Instructions booklet.
?
<NO 10 80X120.jpg>
?
?
John D. Atkinson
Newaygo, Michigan
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Here is a different No. 10 track layout from 1940 instructions that uses just one “half straight” section.
Required space is slightly different than the 1949 Instructions booklet.
?
?
?
John D. Atkinson
Newaygo, Michigan
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I have seven of the K line wide radius curves available for sale. Clean. No rust. The tops of some ties are bent down indicating they've been nailed down at one time; I have the tie repair tool to straighten them if you'd like. One has power wires soldered on. I think it's fair to call them C-7.
The price tag I put on them years ago was $2.50 each. I don't know whether that should be higher or lower today. Make offer.
Bob Graves
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On Apr 5, 2025, at 5:15?PM, John Hutnick via groups.io <johnhutnick@...> wrote:
? Does anyone have any wide radius track to sell?? I looked on Ebay for both Lionel and Kline wide radius and found nothing.
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Does anyone have any wide radius track to sell?? I looked on Ebay for both Lionel and Kline wide radius and found nothing.
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FYI
There is Lionel American Flyer (ties are stamped American Flyer and glossy black) wide radius track available as well.? I have both the Lionel and K-Line (ties are stamped K-Line and matt black finish) versions of the wide radius curves both types bought on ebay that also came with the wide radius black rubber road bed.
Be advised that the K-Line flange on the bottom of the rails is wider than the Gilbert track and causes accessories that attach to the track like special rails, mail posts and uncouplers to squeeze the track narrower and can cause problems with locomotives and rolling stock.? I had to use a Dremel to grind down the K-Line flanges so they would accept the above mentioned accessories without squeezing the rails.? I found it not worth it so I replaced those sections with Gilbert track unless I was attaching nothing to those track sections.
Also I found that the track pins on the K-Line track are wider and thicker than the original Gilbert track pins and if you do not file down these pins on all sides they will deform the original Gilbert Track ends when inserted.? I did not have track pin problem with the Lionel American Flyer wide radius curves or straight tracks.? The pins inserted into original Gilbert Track easily.
I also use 26693 wire (type) track locks which work with the rubber road bed to keep my track from separating and don't have to fasten with screws/nails or glue down the track/roadbed.? Purchased almost all of them from Little Steamers.? You don't see them against the black rubber road bed and they barely are seen using the gray road bed.
You can see them in use in this video on my YT channel.
? 6' x 10' (four black resin tables), three loops with wide radius curves on the outside loop.? ?Inside loop is replica of the 112 display layout track plan.?
Mike Cronin
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 1:30?AM John Hutnick via <johnhutnick= [email protected]> wrote: From my understanding of this plan, it appears that only one train can run continuously.? For a new 7x12, I think 2 train running is preferable.? Also, if the builder can afford K-line S gauge 0-54 from Ebay, one circuit of this would make for easier running of the 4-8-4.
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Re: For sale: George Sellios's layout book
I've seen that layout twice.........only about 20 miles from me.
It's unbelievable!
You can "tour" that layout for an hour, and never see all the detail.......and moreover, never pay any attention at all to the operating trains !!!!!
Doug Peck
Port Line Hobbies
6 Storeybrooke Drive
Newburyport, MA 01950
888-708-0782 (within US only)
978-465-8798
doug@...
www.portlines.com
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert Graves via groups.io Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2025 3:51 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [S-Trains] For sale: George Sellios's layout book George Sellios, founder of Fine Scale Miniatures, wrote and published this book, "The Fabulous Franklin & South Manchester Railroad" in 1991. In 79 pages, it describes, and shows numerous pictures of, the incredible 23' x 42' layout he built on the second floor of the Fine Scale Miniatures factory. The cover says Volume 1, so perhaps he later published more books like this. While the trains are HO scale, the modeling ideas and techniques he describes in detail apply in any scale, and on page 34, there is a billboard advertising the early American Flyer trains before Gilbert bought the company. The price on the cover is $19.95. I would call it mint condition. Make offer. Bob Graves
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For sale: George Sellios's layout book
George Sellios, founder of Fine Scale Miniatures, wrote and published this book, "The Fabulous Franklin & South Manchester Railroad" in 1991. In 79 pages, it describes, and shows numerous pictures of, the incredible 23' x 42' layout he built on the second floor of the Fine Scale Miniatures factory. The cover says Volume 1, so perhaps he later published more books like this.
While the trains are HO scale, the modeling ideas and techniques he describes in detail apply in any scale, and on page 34, there is a billboard advertising the early American Flyer trains before Gilbert bought the company.
The price on the cover is $19.95. I would call it mint condition. Make offer.
Bob Graves
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If you're operating on AC or DC, that's correct for most people, unless you're gutsy and want to play chicken where?the three loops share track at the end.
Sophisticated layout designers, however, can use semaphores and/or 2-train operation of the switches in conjunction with #709 lockout eliminators to control the flow of trains through the common area.
If you're running digital control (Legacy, TMCC, or DCC), you can run three or more trains at a time as long as you have operators who don't fall asleep at the controls.
Bob Graves
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On Apr 1, 2025, at 10:30?PM, John Hutnick via groups.io <johnhutnick@...> wrote:
? From my understanding of this plan, it appears that only one train can run continuously.? For a new 7x12, I think 2 train running is preferable.? Also, if the builder can afford K-line S gauge 0-54 from Ebay, one circuit of this would make for easier running of the 4-8-4.
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From my understanding of this plan, it appears that only one train can run continuously.? For a new 7x12, I think 2 train running is preferable.? Also, if the builder can afford K-line S gauge 0-54 from Ebay, one circuit of this would make for easier running of the 4-8-4.
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Robert:
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I love the throwback track design layout, template and graph paper.
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Thank you,
?
David
?
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David A. Avedesian, PE, RPA
Newport Associates
5 Baughman Court
Silver Spring, MD 20906
301-929-9000 home
301-225-1036 work
301-938-1811 cell
david.avedesian@...
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Robert Graves via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2025 3:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [S-Trains] Gilbert track plan
?
That's correct. The three half curves is one of the many problems with that layout design.
The correct drawing is attached. I should've included it in the original message; my brain is still stuck on the old days when you couldn't attach anything to a group message.
You all can save the time of laying it out on the floor because I've already done that. I did that to verify that my scale drawing was accurate.?
In addition, I drew a little bit on my 10th grade geometry class; the old 30° angle trick. That's where the 2-inch piece on each end of the layout, and the 7-inch piece in the middle, come from. If you don't do the geometry, you might be
able to fudge your floor layout and track planning software enough to think you don't need it.
And you'll notice a 6-inch piece of straight track off the switch labeled 4-L. When you put a reverse curve on the red branch of a switch, it ends up one inch short of the track on the green branch. If your track planning software isn't
really accurate, it may not pick up on that.
And you'll notice that I made the layout a little bit longer so each siding can hold a good size train, and each loop can hold a good size train while another train is running on a different loop.
On Mar 29, 2025, at 5:48?PM, Dale Smith via groups.io <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
?
Instruction manuals are available on americanflyerexpress.com for several different years.?? This is from the 1949 manual.
?
The drawing makes it look like those switches on the left are curves of different radii.? In any case, I would think that 2 1/2 curved sections would not give you a 90 degree bend as shown.?
Dale Smith
On 3/28/2025 9:44 AM, Tom Higgins via groups.io wrote:
I too would like to see that 7 x 12 (or 6 x 11) layout as well if given the opportunity.? I was thinking about a similar lay out about that size myself.
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That's correct. The three half curves is one of the many problems with that layout design.
The correct drawing is attached. I should've included it in the original message; my brain is still stuck on the old days when you couldn't attach anything to a group message.
You all can save the time of laying it out on the floor because I've already done that. I did that to verify that my scale drawing was accurate.?
In addition, I drew a little bit on my 10th grade geometry class; the old 30° angle trick. That's where the 2-inch piece on each end of the layout, and the 7-inch piece in the middle, come from. If you don't do the geometry, you might be able to fudge your floor layout and track planning software enough to think you don't need it.
And you'll notice a 6-inch piece of straight track off the switch labeled 4-L. When you put a reverse curve on the red branch of a switch, it ends up one inch short of the track on the green branch. If your track planning software isn't really accurate, it may not pick up on that.
And you'll notice that I made the layout a little bit longer so each siding can hold a good size train, and each loop can hold a good size train while another train is running on a different loop.
Bob Graves
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On Mar 29, 2025, at 5:48?PM, Dale Smith via groups.io <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
?
Instruction manuals are available on americanflyerexpress.com for
several different years.?? This is from the 1949 manual.
<rOh0UuhHdgnTDRu3.png>
The drawing makes it look like those switches on the left are
curves of different radii.? In any case, I would think that 2 1/2
curved sections would not give you a 90 degree bend as shown.?
Dale Smith
On 3/28/2025 9:44 AM, Tom Higgins via
groups.io wrote:
I too would like to see that 7 x 12 (or 6 x 11) layout as
well if given the opportunity.? I was thinking about a similar
lay out about that size myself.
?
Thanks for any input.
?
Tom Higgins?
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Tom - an interesting question.? I was using "20 inches" as shorthand - mainly to distinguish from the larger "27-in" radius curve track (which I also have in the layout plans).? So to answer your question, I made a half circle of the "20-inch" radius track in the software and then lined it up with the ruler, as shown in the attached.? Since it won't let me line up the centerline at zero, its offset by 2 inches, hence the centerline at the other end of the half-circle is on 40 - so viola, RailModeller uses a centerline radius of 19"!??
I don't think it will affect my layout construction, but thanks for asking.? I should note that the software references the Lionel version of the S-gauge track - since all the track I have is Gilbert (and I guess Gargraves for the 27" radius curves), I am presuming that the Lionel and ACG versions of the curves are the same, or close enough for gummint work...
- Rich
< I fired up the track planning software I use on my Mac - Railmodeller Pro > Richard, do you know the centerline radius that Railmodeler Pro uses?? You refer to the radius being 20” but I believe the centerline radius for original AC Gilbert American Flyer track in more like 19.125”.? So I’m wondering if that difference could affect your laying out of the track plan? I don’t know if pdf files show up on this io group.? I could send a jpg if that would work better… Tom Stoltz in Maine
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< I fired up the track planning software I use on my Mac - Railmodeller Pro > Richard, do you know the centerline radius that Railmodeler Pro uses?? You refer to the radius being 20” but I believe the centerline radius for original AC Gilbert American Flyer track in more like 19.125”.? So I’m wondering if that difference could affect your laying out of the track plan? I don’t know if pdf files show up on this io group.? I could send a jpg if that would work better… Tom Stoltz in Maine
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Since we are talking about layouts - I've attached my current layout plans.? The chair of the domicile space assignment committee has signed off on my using a former bedroom for this endeavor (still not big enough for the dream layout, but since there are very few basements in California, it is what it is...!).?? The main rectangle is ~11.5 x ~8'.? I've crammed a lot of sidings into this - hopefully there will be enough room for accessories.? Transformers, etc. will be next to the yard on the left side of the drawing.? I have some preliminary ideas for having a "below grade" storage yard along the left side of the layout (see attached) - the yellow trackage would connect to the initial trackage, with some modifications to accommodate the gradient up to grade level.? My bench work is designed around this option.
The green loop is a folded figure eight, as you can see.? I've finished the bench work, which uses 2x4 legs, 1x4 horizontal supports, and the top is 1.5" thick rigid foam board*.? I also plan to use the foam board to create the grades and the mountain in the corner.? I have finished cleaning about 15 RH and 15 LH switches so I'm about to dive into creating the actual trackage.? One issue is that the grade on the cross-over track (the lighter green) is about 3.5%, based on a clearance height of 4.25" - hopefully that will be ok.?
- Rich
*I'd be happy to share my benchwork plans - done in Sketchup - for anyone interested.? As a hobby woodworker, I use Sketchup all the time, for anything involving more than one piece of wood...? So I can create a pdf of the plans.
I tried to put #10 together in AnyRail 7.? It was close as shown in the diagram, but not quite.? I agree that there was probably some "Fudging" to get the tracks to connect.
If they screwed (#4 screws) down the 90° crossing and the switches and used the 693 track locks then the rails would never come apart; the only problem for the trains would come if when "fudging" two connected track sections formed a kink.
Track Plans for model trains by Linn Westcott from 1956 has 70 track plans for S Gauge both small and large, even point to point shelf type.? As a matter of fact on the cover is an American Flyer Layout with a teenager running trains and has five 720/26760 switches.? There is an index in the back of the book giving the area required and notes for cutting rails if necessary.
I am recreating all of the plans that will fit my 6' x 10' (four 2-1/2' x 6' resin tables) area in AnyRail 7.
Mike Cronin
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 2:22?PM Larry Shughart via <larryshughart= [email protected]> wrote: In My experience building many AF track layouts, this is very "fudge-able".? ?i would start by trying to eliminate all the short sections, and even try to fudge the 4" into a half straight, and the 8" into a 10".? ? it might not be exactly parallel and square, but that looks more realistic anyways.? or use a dremel.? ?track is no longer worth anything at train shows.? ?cut it up and make your joints nice and tight.??
?
And, to improve upon Gilbert's less than optimal design i would :
- slide that bottom switch to the left by two pieces of straight to eliminate the double S curve, which would make the trains look much nicer going through it
- Extend all of the sidings to as long as i can get them to support more cars
- add another pair of switches by replacing the last curves before the vertical straight section on the left side of the layout to create two seperate loops so two trains could operate simultaneously.? the whole layout would shift to the right a bit, but still be within the 11' grid.? ? ?
?
i had a 6' x 10' table for years that i built a number of different layouts on, all with AF sectional track.? ? it was a very good compromise on size.? ?small enough to fit into any room, but large enough to support two loops, various over/under layouts, and lots of buildings and accessories.? ?
?
?7 x 11 opens up significantly more possibilities, particularly enabling the addition of the switching yard.
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I tried to put #10 together in AnyRail 7.? It was close as shown in the diagram, but not quite.? I agree that there was probably some "Fudging" to get the tracks to connect.
If they screwed (#4 screws) down the 90° crossing and the switches and used the 693 track locks then the rails would never come apart; the only problem for the trains would come if when "fudging" two connected track sections formed a kink.
Track Plans for model trains by Linn Westcott from 1956 has 70 track plans for S Gauge both small and large, even point to point shelf type.? As a matter of fact on the cover is an American Flyer Layout with a teenager running trains and has five 720/26760 switches.? There is an index in the back of the book giving the area required and notes for cutting rails if necessary.
I am recreating all of the plans that will fit my 6' x 10' (four 2-1/2' x 6' resin tables) area in AnyRail 7.
Mike Cronin
On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 2:22?PM Larry Shughart via <larryshughart= [email protected]> wrote: In My experience building many AF track layouts, this is very "fudge-able".? ?i would start by trying to eliminate all the short sections, and even try to fudge the 4" into a half straight, and the 8" into a 10".? ? it might not be exactly parallel and square, but that looks more realistic anyways.? or use a dremel.? ?track is no longer worth anything at train shows.? ?cut it up and make your joints nice and tight.??
?
And, to improve upon Gilbert's less than optimal design i would :
- slide that bottom switch to the left by two pieces of straight to eliminate the double S curve, which would make the trains look much nicer going through it
- Extend all of the sidings to as long as i can get them to support more cars
- add another pair of switches by replacing the last curves before the vertical straight section on the left side of the layout to create two seperate loops so two trains could operate simultaneously.? the whole layout would shift to the right a bit, but still be within the 11' grid.? ? ?
?
i had a 6' x 10' table for years that i built a number of different layouts on, all with AF sectional track.? ? it was a very good compromise on size.? ?small enough to fit into any room, but large enough to support two loops, various over/under layouts, and lots of buildings and accessories.? ?
?
?7 x 11 opens up significantly more possibilities, particularly enabling the addition of the switching yard.
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