ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
esc to dismiss
Re: New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
I would like to add a brief comment on A-6535, of which I am a member. While the Bruce grant of lands in Annandale dates to 1124, it appears that the 1st Lord of Annandale did not take up residence in Scotland, and while his earliest descendants may have done so, at least a few generations of them continued to be buried at estates in Yorkshire,? England. Walter FitzAlan, meanwhile, after having to forfeit his baronial holdings in Shropshire and Norfolk due to his support for Empress Matilda, ventured north to Ayrshire at the invitation of David I, undoubtedly with his entire household and a large retinue of dependents in tow, in 1141, witnessing a charter for the king the following year. His mandate was to implant Norman style feudalism, for which purpose he created a system of vassals who were allotted holdings for their own maintenance in return for military and other service. The the Viking presence in the Isles remained a threat that did not abate until the Battle of Largs in 1263, after which grants of land were made to Boyds, Cunninghams and Muirs in Ayrshire for their role in the conflict.
In fact, the surnames under A-6535 fit quite comfortably into Ayrshire: among the FitzAlan/Stewart vassals are Richard Wallace and Peter de Curri, as well asTempleton, Pattison, and Thompson. My own Keys most likely derives from McKey, potentially traceable to a modern-day Keys Hill, which is probably identical to a feature that appears on a 17th century map as Makiestoun. The temptation to associate Peter de Curri with Annandale entails certain risks, as the Annandale name is invariably spelled with an "o", while the Ayrshire one is most often "u", e.g., Petrus de Curri (even though it may be rendered "Corrie" in modern sources). Black's Surnames, which refers to Currie as simply a variant of Corrie, mistakenly attributes a grant of land in Ayrshire in favour of Melrose Abbey to "Phillip de Curry", whereas it was in fact made by Peter. Another Curri, Perus or Piers, is identified as the knight whose name is linked to the Battle of Largs, where the Scottish contingents were almost certainly under the command of Alexander of Dundonald, High Steward of Scotland. It may be sheer coincidence that my first ancestor in Ireland, Duncan McKey, held the position of steward (seneschal) in the household of the undertaker (Plantation land grantee) Sir William Hamilton.
Anyone wishing to explore the early Norman presence in Ayrshire further may consult this essay: <>
Cheers, Roy
|
Re: SAPP Tool for creating trees from STRs
The FGC11674 group has used it to great effect. I credit the use of that tool for encouraging the majority of the 120 plus Big Y and WGS tests for the group.?
I think it’s an important tool to help someone with 37-111 results visualize how they may relate to others, and what further testing can do.?
The new link is here:? | |
|
|
SAPP Tool for creating trees from STRs
Anyone have a good link for the SAPP Tool these days? This one no longer works:
|
Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
My dad has quite a few new matches at the 25 and 12 markers that he did not have before. I think he only had 10 or 11 25's and a few more 12's. He has no changes above the 25 marker matches.
None of the new matches look very promising. His closest matches are still at a genetic difference of 7, but I did find a marriage between a woman with his surname and the surname of one of his matches from Germany. It took place in the 1600's and could be an adoption of a son from a prior marriage. Sadly, the match has no tree.
On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 03:29:47 AM CST, C.B. via groups.io <irishz156@...> wrote:
Kevin A Big Y test would show the bard how far back his DF98 branch was in Ireland!!
Also, FTDNA are dragging their heels with the Y info from the Family Finder tests. Z156 went from 4,516 to 4,564 since the 1st November. The info from the Family Finder tests could help us all. These three YSNP RSIDs are from my 23andme autosomal file. Surely FTDNA's Family Finder tests contain these also!
Z156? rs770355795 G
S5520 rs754136806 A
S5556 i705809 G
颁颈补谤á苍
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 11:11:56 PM UTC, Kevin Terry <kevintyrry@...> wrote:
A good idea might be to do a Y 37 DNA test with FT. The matches list should show whether you are a Daly or some other surname a few centuries ago!
--
Kevin Terry
|
Re: New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
Hi Ian and Brian,
Thank you for the feedback and advice. The terminal haplogroup is?R-BY194284.
This is a similar situation to my Gleave line in which I was all alone? on R-BY55111 for several years until another BIY Y result placed me and the tester in FTA 81892. The surname is Merchant rather than Gleave and estimated that our common ancestor was born around 1400 CE. Another puzzle to solve........
Cheers,
Mike
On Sunday, 4 February 2024 at 23:30:14 CET, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
I would just add that so any of these types of questions come from America.
?
What will slowly but gradually change the picture is that the idea of Bigy-700 testing getting more embedded in the family history community in Britain - and that it is relevant.
?
We are only at the early stages of all this.? I belong to the London Branch of the Wales FHS. Recently we had a talk by Debbie Kennett, and the Secretary did a poll of the membership on what DNA tests had been taken.? Most members are women,
and most had tested with Ancestry. I think I was the only individual who had taken a BigY-700 test.
?
I hope I will get to talk about it with them this year (sometime). But sometimes folk get fed up with all the talk on DNA.? And, of course, only Ancestry advertises on national TV – FTDNA has essentially no media presence at all over here.
?
You just need more men to test over here – all we can do is continue to throw the mud at the brick wall – sooner or later some of it will stick.
?
Brian
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Iain via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
?
Hi Mike,
?
By R-194282, I presume you mean R-BY194284?
?
I don't know what searching you've done for your 3*great-grandfather's ancestry. I'm expecting you've already looked for records on Scotland's People. Pre-1841 records can be difficult to find, and many births were simply not registered. It can be worth
going through the Kirk Session records page by page to try to find something useful. Otherwise, it's normally a case of building up evidence from unrelated sources like the 1830s heads of household indices, estate records, trade directories, company records,
etc., to build up a picture of a wider family. It's an approach that works better in rural areas than urban ones (because there are fewer people to interact with), and one that works better with rarer surnames than common ones.
?
In terms of a possible surname change, yes, that is possible. However, it's worth looking at when you are related. If you look at your Block Tree, you'll see your Forster family comes off at R-BY194284. FTDNA's Discover places at relationship at very roughly
1200 years ago, before the adoption of surnames. The Wallace fmaily all belong to R-BY194284>BY193820>Z23289, and they appear much more closely related to each other than they are to you. So it's likely that your common ancestor never held an inherited surname.
?
Several R-DF98 lines we find in this part of Scotland seem to be post-Norman arrivals. Obviously it's difficult to be definitive in any single case, but we see suggestions that one or two (e.g. R-A6535) came up with the Norman settlements of David I, particularly
with the Bruce family. We see many other lines that show similar timescales of arrival. I'd suggest your ancestors arrived in Britain about 1000 years or so, given the make-up of R-PH589.
?
Cheers,
?
Iain.
|
Re: New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
This will become a not uncommon problem.
?
I have had to tell one family in America fairly recently that they have an NPE event around 1675 in America – and they are all really Swanns – all of them.
?
We even have this problem with the Royal Family – if you recall the Y-DNA testing of Richard III – the one male line which should correlate with his Y-DNA signature did not.
?
And they would not let Turi King into Westminster Abbey to look at the royal bodies buried there to find out the truth.
?
Of course, one interpretation of the origin of the surname Wallace was that they came from Wales.
?
Brian
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Michael Gleave via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 2:55 PM
To: R1b-u106 Groups IO <[email protected]>
Subject: [R1b-U106] New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
?
After hanging out with the?R-FGC910 branches for the last four years, through my Gleave surname and very small surname project, I decided to test my mother's paternal line and luckily managed to convince one of my male cousins to take the
Big Y.
The Foster's originate from Western Scotland and moved to Liverpool, in around 1850. My Grandad was proud of his Scottish heritage (as well as Everton while we support Liverpool!!) and I even have an old Robert Burns song book in the Forrester/Foster
green colours, which has been handed down through the family.
I have managed to trace the Foster's back to Greenock in Scotland but have a brick wall with my 3rd Great Grandfather as I cannot locate his birth certificate anywhere. The objective of the test was partly to see if I could break through
this wall, as well as establish the origins of the Fosters.
The results have now come back and I have another line which is in the R1b-U106 brotherhood although this time in a completely different branch under R-DF98. The terminal Haplogroup is R-194282 and there is not one single Foster/Forrester
match at any level of testing!! Six out of nine of the Big Y matches have a Wallace surname (although they are downstream of R-194282) while the STR testing results at 111 and 67 are also dominated by Wallaces.
Should we now change the Foster/Forrester colours on the Burns book with Wallace? Could this be a potential surname switch, a not the parent expected or some other explanation? I read Ian's excellent analysis on the King's cluster which
provided great insight into this branch of the tree.?
If anyone can recommend any further reading on ancestry in Western Scotland, that would also be greatly received.
|
Re: Geographic Projects at FTDNA
Speculations based on phylogeography of the Y-Chromosome are a great way to learn some British history.
?
But I would always remind you of the “Africans in Yorkshire” paper from about 2007 – which showed that about half the Yorkshireman with the surname Revis were in Haplogroup A – and so should be Kalahari Desert bushmen.
?
My take is that in spite of various best endeavours by folk like Iain and others (including me), the vast bulk of family historians in Britain have yet to get their heads around any of this.
?
I am basing these comments on the totally uncontrolled surname project of Swann/Swan that I run. Hardly anyone ever joins the DNA project from England – occasionally from Ireland and Scotland – often via emigrants to Canada/NZ/Australia.?
English folk are happy ferreting around in their documentation – if they cannot find or know of a living male relative – then they are not bothered to try and trace one.
?
Hardly anyone would want to run a cluster group project in Northumberland for folk in America – why would they?
?
----------------------
?
Anyway, I am very pleased to see Leo Little is still remembered – and I still use and have his 2007 compilation on Haplogroups and STR distributions. Although helplessly out of date – FTDNA have never updated this type of analysis as far
as I know.
?
I hope the numbers are obvious as to what they mean and also the colour scheme.? No real reason why STR repeat numbers should correlate in any way with SNP positions on the Y-Chromosome, given the 3-D architecture involved in how the DNA
is packaged inside cells.
?
Brian
?
 ?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of T J Little via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 2:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-U106] Geographic Projects at FTDNA
?
I'm not sure the solidness of this question. However, in the Little Surname DNA Project we have a fair-sized group of men with surname Little/Lyttle and fall under U106 > L1 > A680 ...? This was Leo Little's Null 439 group.? Is there any
geological area associated with the origins of this lineage? (besides Kentucky) For example, If the Angles held Northumberland up to the Forth throughout the second half of the first millennium, is it logical to assume descendants from these folks might still
be around in 1100+ to adopt the surname Little, which is genetically under L21, L513, L193 (S5982).
We're generally leaning toward the origins being down around Wiltshire from the early Saxon 'invasions' after the Romans left. We also have a large group of "Wiltshire Littles" who are haplogroup "I". But during the 5th century is also when the Angles were
being hired to defend against the Picts and then they subsequently took over for themselves in the kingdom of Bernicia.
I briefly looked for a geological-based project for Northumbria, but I don't believe one exists.? Is this a direction to be looking, or is it just me trying to create a convenient explanation?? Thanks!
- Tom Little, Project Admin for the Little Project
|
Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
Kevin A Big Y test would show the bard how far back his DF98 branch was in Ireland!!
Also, FTDNA are dragging their heels with the Y info from the Family Finder tests. Z156 went from 4,516 to 4,564 since the 1st November. The info from the Family Finder tests could help us all. These three YSNP RSIDs are from my 23andme autosomal file. Surely FTDNA's Family Finder tests contain these also!
Z156? rs770355795 G
S5520 rs754136806 A
S5556 i705809 G
颁颈补谤á苍
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 11:11:56 PM UTC, Kevin Terry <kevintyrry@...> wrote:
A good idea might be to do a Y 37 DNA test with FT. The matches list should show whether you are a Daly or some other surname a few centuries ago!
--
Kevin Terry
|
Re: Geographic Projects at FTDNA
Yes,? thank you, Leake. I meant "geographical" area.??
- Tom
|
Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
A good idea might be to do a Y 37 DNA test with FT. The matches list should show whether you are a Daly or some other surname a few centuries ago!
--
Kevin Terry
|
Re: New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
I would just add that so any of these types of questions come from America.
?
What will slowly but gradually change the picture is that the idea of Bigy-700 testing getting more embedded in the family history community in Britain - and that it is relevant.
?
We are only at the early stages of all this.? I belong to the London Branch of the Wales FHS. Recently we had a talk by Debbie Kennett, and the Secretary did a poll of the membership on what DNA tests had been taken.? Most members are women,
and most had tested with Ancestry. I think I was the only individual who had taken a BigY-700 test.
?
I hope I will get to talk about it with them this year (sometime). But sometimes folk get fed up with all the talk on DNA.? And, of course, only Ancestry advertises on national TV – FTDNA has essentially no media presence at all over here.
?
You just need more men to test over here – all we can do is continue to throw the mud at the brick wall – sooner or later some of it will stick.
?
Brian
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Iain via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
?
Hi Mike,
?
By R-194282, I presume you mean R-BY194284?
?
I don't know what searching you've done for your 3*great-grandfather's ancestry. I'm expecting you've already looked for records on Scotland's People. Pre-1841 records can be difficult to find, and many births were simply not registered. It can be worth
going through the Kirk Session records page by page to try to find something useful. Otherwise, it's normally a case of building up evidence from unrelated sources like the 1830s heads of household indices, estate records, trade directories, company records,
etc., to build up a picture of a wider family. It's an approach that works better in rural areas than urban ones (because there are fewer people to interact with), and one that works better with rarer surnames than common ones.
?
In terms of a possible surname change, yes, that is possible. However, it's worth looking at when you are related. If you look at your Block Tree, you'll see your Forster family comes off at R-BY194284. FTDNA's Discover places at relationship at very roughly
1200 years ago, before the adoption of surnames. The Wallace fmaily all belong to R-BY194284>BY193820>Z23289, and they appear much more closely related to each other than they are to you. So it's likely that your common ancestor never held an inherited surname.
?
Several R-DF98 lines we find in this part of Scotland seem to be post-Norman arrivals. Obviously it's difficult to be definitive in any single case, but we see suggestions that one or two (e.g. R-A6535) came up with the Norman settlements of David I, particularly
with the Bruce family. We see many other lines that show similar timescales of arrival. I'd suggest your ancestors arrived in Britain about 1000 years or so, given the make-up of R-PH589.
?
Cheers,
?
Iain.
|
Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 3, 2024, at 3:18?PM, NG <nsgraves@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
Thank you for the clarification Iain.? Do you think that most of the elevated P312 in Norway/Denmark vis-à-vis Sweden can be attributed to increased Bell Beaker influence in those areas? Best, Noah
|
Re: New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
Hi Mike,
By R-194282, I presume you mean R-BY194284?
I don't know what searching you've done for your 3*great-grandfather's ancestry. I'm expecting you've already looked for records on Scotland's People. Pre-1841 records can be difficult to find, and many births were simply not registered. It can be worth going through the Kirk Session records page by page to try to find something useful. Otherwise, it's normally a case of building up evidence from unrelated sources like the 1830s heads of household indices, estate records, trade directories, company records, etc., to build up a picture of a wider family. It's an approach that works better in rural areas than urban ones (because there are fewer people to interact with), and one that works better with rarer surnames than common ones.
In terms of a possible surname change, yes, that is possible. However, it's worth looking at when you are related. If you look at your Block Tree, you'll see your Forster family comes off at R-BY194284. FTDNA's Discover places at relationship at very roughly 1200 years ago, before the adoption of surnames. The Wallace fmaily all belong to R-BY194284>BY193820>Z23289, and they appear much more closely related to each other than they are to you. So it's likely that your common ancestor never held an inherited surname.
Several R-DF98 lines we find in this part of Scotland seem to be post-Norman arrivals. Obviously it's difficult to be definitive in any single case, but we see suggestions that one or two (e.g. R-A6535) came up with the Norman settlements of David I, particularly with the Bruce family. We see many other lines that show similar timescales of arrival. I'd suggest your ancestors arrived in Britain about 1000 years or so, given the make-up of R-PH589.
Cheers,
Iain.
|
Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
Hi Noah,
I'm not sure about R-P312 in Scandinavia - it's a little outside my realm of knowledge. Certainly R-P312 seems to have travelled west before R-U106, so got a foothold on the Atlantic Coasts before R-U106 entered the area. Whether that was directly from the Corded Ware Culture or the later CWC--Bell-Beaker amalgam (the Bell Beaker resurgence) I don't think I'm really qualified to assess.
Cheers,
Iani.
|
Re: Lecture Studium Generale Maastricht -Genetic History of Europe - JohannesKrause
Hello CHristiaan,
I will definitely take a look at this talk. Incidentally, you may
find my 2017 essay on the same topic, titled Reflections on the
demographic prehistory of Europe, at the following link:
Cheers, Roy
On 2/4/24 10:57, Christiaan H. via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Interesting lecture about the genetic history of Europe by
Johannes Krause (Max-Planck institute Leipzig)
|
Lecture Studium Generale Maastricht -Genetic History of Europe - JohannesKrause
Interesting lecture about the genetic history of Europe by Johannes Krause (Max-Planck institute Leipzig)
https://youtu.be/mWTVx3Cx6Zc?si=QPNFsSGjtQfb2vmJ
|
Re: Geographic Projects at FTDNA
Hi Tom - quick question, do you mean to say "geological" or "geographical" place for this genetic cluster?
leake
|
New Big Y results; The Foster/Forrester ...........Wallace connection
Hi All,
After hanging out with the?R-FGC910 branches for the last four years, through my Gleave surname and very small surname project, I decided to test my mother's paternal line and luckily managed to convince one of my male cousins to take the Big Y.
The Foster's originate from Western Scotland and moved to Liverpool, in around 1850. My Grandad was proud of his Scottish heritage (as well as Everton while we support Liverpool!!) and I even have an old Robert Burns song book in the Forrester/Foster green colours, which has been handed down through the family.
I have managed to trace the Foster's back to Greenock in Scotland but have a brick wall with my 3rd Great Grandfather as I cannot locate his birth certificate anywhere. The objective of the test was partly to see if I could break through this wall, as well as establish the origins of the Fosters.
The results have now come back and I have another line which is in the R1b-U106 brotherhood although this time in a completely different branch under R-DF98. The terminal Haplogroup is R-194282 and there is not one single Foster/Forrester match at any level of testing!! Six out of nine of the Big Y matches have a Wallace surname (although they are downstream of R-194282) while the STR testing results at 111 and 67 are also dominated by Wallaces.
Should we now change the Foster/Forrester colours on the Burns book with Wallace? Could this be a potential surname switch, a not the parent expected or some other explanation? I read Ian's excellent analysis on the King's cluster which provided great insight into this branch of the tree.?
If anyone can recommend any further reading on ancestry in Western Scotland, that would also be greatly received.
Many thanks and Best,
Mike Gleave
|
Geographic Projects at FTDNA
I'm not sure the solidness of this question. However, in the Little Surname DNA Project we have a fair-sized group of men with surname Little/Lyttle and fall under U106 > L1 > A680 ...? This was Leo Little's Null 439 group.? Is there any geological area associated with the origins of this lineage? (besides Kentucky) For example, If the Angles held Northumberland up to the Forth throughout the second half of the first millennium, is it logical to assume descendants from these folks might still be around in 1100+ to adopt the surname Little, which is genetically under L21, L513, L193 (S5982).?
We're generally leaning toward the origins being down around Wiltshire from the early Saxon 'invasions' after the Romans left. We also have a large group of "Wiltshire Littles" who are haplogroup "I". But during the 5th century is also when the Angles were being hired to defend against the Picts and then they subsequently took over for themselves in the kingdom of Bernicia.
I briefly looked for a geological-based project for Northumbria, but I don't believe one exists.? Is this a direction to be looking, or is it just me trying to create a convenient explanation?? Thanks!
- Tom Little, Project Admin for the Little Project
|
T J Little
Kevin Terry
Inventorb
Leake Little