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Re: Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Alex, Welcome to R-DF98! Our little haplogroup contains some of Europe's biggest names, but only a few percent of its population. From ancient DNA, we can be pretty certain it arose in the Unetice Culture, in or near the modern Czech Republic, a little over 4000 years ago. However, to fill in the subsequent 4000 years, we really would need higher resolution tests, and to explore more-detailed haplogroups where we are also less certain about the haplogroup's origins. How any individual R-DF98 line ended up in Ireland is therefore a question we can't answer. Even with a complete Y chromosome test, we can only provide an answer for some people. So for the moment, all we can say are generalisations. In between R-DF98 and R-U106 is the intermediate group R-Z156, other parts of which probably also share Unetice descent. While I can be most detailed about R-DF98 (because, being also my haplogroup, I've studied it most closely), we can also draw from other parts of R-Z156 too to get better statistics. I have yet to see a R-U106 line in Ireland that can be definitively traced back to before the Norman conquest (the R-Z156>S5520 MacMillan group is probably the best contender). The earliest evidence we have for any R-U106 in the British Isles is two circa 3rd century AD Roman burials (possibly gladiators) in York, which are R-Z156>DF96 and R-Z156>DF98. None of this precludes R-U106 being in Ireland or Great Britain before these dates - indeed several R-U106 lines probably were in the British Isles before these dates - but there must have been much less R-U106 than there is today. Much of the R-U106 we see in Ireland today (and indeed most of the R-DF98 in particular) comes from the Ulster Scots Plantationers. However, these tend to be in historically Protestant families. There is a possibility of a "not the parent expected" event, such as an Ulster Scot having an illicit fling with one of your Irish ancestors, then running away! Before the Plantation, the few R-U106 lines we can trace in Ireland probably have their roots in Scotland. The back-and-forth nature of these migrations probably brought a lot of the pre-Plantation R-U106 lines to Ireland. Scottish R-U106 comes from a variety of sources. R-DF98 in particular seems to come mostly from the late medieval settlement of southern Scotland by the Normans, but there is scant evidence in most cases and only a handful of sources to choose from. And there is also a lot we can't trace. There are many opportunities over the last 4000 years to bring a R-DF98 line into Ireland, and many routes that we probably have yet to see documentary evidence for. So, really, any possibility is open. We can't be more clear than some of these vague possiblities with just a DF98+ call. We could tell more with further testing: this could be a sequencing test in the future or, if you are sure you don't want to order a sequencing test in the future, you could go for an SNP pack test. This could align you with some existing families, but more likely it will provide a limiting date for the earliest your family is likely to have arrived in Ireland. That could be very recent, or a long time in the past. Cheers, Iain. |
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Re: Modern humans were already in northern Europe 45,000 years ago
It will help to have other corroborating sites but this is a new stake in the ground if the results hold...? This shouldn't be surprising actually - our historical perspective (including religious texts) have created a timing bias towards more recent events as being definitive. Despite the lack of physical evidence from the prehistoric period we already know that behaviorally H sapiens was more highly mobile, migrated successfully into new territory, etc. than previous models might have suggested. For instance, why should there have been a single-vector distribution of H sapiens over time and space? Is it the lack of evidence or perspective that we don't consider more bi- and multi-directional migration/diffusion models?
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Help with interpreting surprising yDNA results (Irish)
Hey there,
I recently tested for my haplogroups with LivingDNA and was fairly surprised by my yDNA result, namely U106>DF98. I haven't tested to get any further than that as I don't really fancy splashing out on downstream yDNA tests quite yet, so I understand that a lot of conjecture is involved with the information I'm able to provide. On its face, my fatherline is about as Irish as it can get. I have an Irish surname (anglicised Daly from the Irish ? D¨¢laigh) and come from a line of Irish-speaking Roman Catholics as far back as I can reliably get (census records confirming both a great-great-great grandfather and his children who were both Irish-speaking and Roman Catholic in County Roscommon, Ireland in the early 1800s). The ? D¨¢laigh clan is said to have its origins in Tethbae, Westmeath -- pretty much bang in the centre-north of the modern Republic of Ireland -- from the 12th century, so my family's impression was that some ancestor of mine moved west from there to Roscommon at some point, where my earliest verifiable ancestors come from. Having done some research, however, it seems that U106 is not native to Ireland and doesn't really feature in ancient Irish samples. It does, however, seem to spring up in the medieval era, indicating possible Anglo-Saxon, Viking or even Norman influence. My theories on this are as follows and I was hoping that someone with a little more knowledge might be able to point me in the right direction or correct any misconceptions I have: 1) Ancient Celtic descent from some early Germanic migration to Ireland(?) From what I've read, this seems unlikely, as we'd expect U106 to be more prevelant in Ireland if it's survived for thousands of years up to the modern day. 2) Anglo-Saxon/Ulster plantation descent I feel like this is fairly unlikely given how U106 seems to be distributed in the British Isles, i.e. focused in the East and South of England and fading as you go north and west, with barely anything in Ireland apart from Ulster at around 14%. It doesn't seem as though there were any large-scale settlements of Anglo-Saxons in Ireland during the medieval era, as you'd expect to see more U106 (though isolated occurrences are obviously not impossible). I've also seen the argument that U106 in Ireland can be explaned by later plantations of people of mixed Anglo-Saxon stock, but it seems strange to me that a planter/a planter's descendants would have a) learnt Irish (as mentioned, Irish-speaking shows up in my family's earliest available census records), b) adopted an extremely established Irish surname, c) converted to Catholicism and d) moved south to Roscommon (not necessarily in that order). 3) Norman descent This seems unlikely to me, as if I'm not mistaken, men in Normandy historically and to this day demonstrate low quantities of this subclade and are primarily R-L21 and R-S28. As well as that, many people of Norman descent in Ireland can trace their surname back to the invasion, and it seems strange that a Norman would adopt ? D¨¢laigh as a surname in their new homeland -- particularly as the ? D¨¢laighs were an eminent bardic family, fiercely proud of their status as Irish-speaking Ollamhs (chief poets) of Ireland (not to suggest they were all Ollamhs, but it seems like a fairly high-brow family name to adopt). 4) Viking descent This, to me, actually seems like the most reasonable option. From what I've read, the U106 subclade appears to have jumped from >1% in pre-medieval Ireland to 5-6% in medieval Ireland, which coincides with the Viking settlements of Ireland. A fairly recent paper (2018) () also concludes that in the areas of heaviest Viking influence in Ireland (chiefly Leinster and Connacht), their yDNA impact was larger than earlier estimates suggested: Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans [...] in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster (; ). This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [].Given that the Dalys are said to have originated in county Westmeath in Leinster, and our ancestors as far as traceable moved at some point from there to Roscommon in eastern Connacht -- that is, all within the hotspots of Viking activity in Ireland -- does it seem fair to assume that I could be descended from a Norse settler? I believe U106 is fairly well-represented in Scandinavia, more so than in Normandy. The adoption of the surname also seems less far-fetched to me than for the Normans, as the Vikings didn't have anything resembling a surname culture, so as Viking pre-eminence in Ireland faded, perhaps they adopted the ? D¨¢laigh surname in their attempts to assimilate. Am I way off the mark in this line of reasoning? Again, I know it's hard to tell without more downstream yDNA information and conjecture plays a big role, but it seems compelling to me on its face. I feel particularly strongly that the Ulster plantation theory doesn't apply here (not only because of my own biases) given my personal family history (surname/Irish language/Roman Catholicism). Thanks so much for reading this far and for any suggestions/pointers/critiques in my reasoning you're able to give. Cheers, Alex |
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Modern humans were already in northern Europe 45,000 years ago
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýModern humans were already in northern Europe 45,000 years ago (and shortly after that in the British Isles)
DNA from bones found in a cave in Germany has been identified as from Homo sapiens, showing that our species endured frigid conditions there as they expanded across the continent.
Dan D.
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Scientists Are Racing to Unearth the Secrets of an Ancient Underwater World
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýScientists Are Racing to Unearth the Secrets of an Ancient Underwater World Historians and divers are trying to retrieve prehistoric clues from beneath the waves¡ªbut they have to act fast. Read in Popular Mechanics:
Dan
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Hi Iain,
I had to chuckle when I read "patience" in your message. My grandfather used to say, "patience lad", because I was very impatient as a child and still impatient at times. I wanted to thank you and all of the U106 group. I feel very fortunate to be a part of the 106 group.? Best, Mike |
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Hi Wayne, Thanks for the great info. Best regards, Mike On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 3:05?AM Wayne via <dna_wayne=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Michael, What you need to consider is how your surname may have been Anglicized.? So if Sartor represents a potential geographic reference point would a previous generation in your line spell the name as say Primmel or Preim.? Look at German surname distribution frequencies and see how they might overlay with Sartor surname frequencies.? To figure out tree and relationships you may need to look at identifying someone "local" to you who has a surname variant of interest on Primm or Sartor then volunteer to get them tested for STR-37.? If there is a close match then you see if you can get a BigY out of them to start to flesh out the "recent" family tree via SNPs. This lays the groundwork as to which surname might apply prior 1600.? ? Multiple individuals/cousins from each line should be tested to confirm a lineage back through the generations.? For you and Sartor testing a 3rd or 4th cousin would start the process. Wayne K.
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 05:16:57 PM EST, Michael Primm <mrprimm53@...> wrote:
I've never heard the name Jacob Sartor before this. Does this mean he is an ancestor or just has the same haplogroup? On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:55?PM Michael Primm via <mrprimm53=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýThe path from the Mesolithic down to R-FT209276 is scattered with information, some of which we know fairly well, some of which we still have to guess at. We know that, between around 4500 BC and around 3000 BC, our ancestors were somewhere in the Pontic-Caspian steppelands - the region between the Black and Caspian seas, in the Dnieper and Volga river basins. We don't know exactly where around this wide area they lived, and several different locations have been proposed from the Urals to the Caucasus. They had some connection with the Yamnaya peoples, but we don't know exactly what, and it seems that they founded the Indo-European set of languages. Before this, if they were in the same area, then it's a good guess that they were part of the eastern European hunter-gatherer groups. However, we lack any real information on our ancestors between about 11000 BC and 4500 BC (this is represented by the large R-M269 block of SNPs), so we can't say anything about that period with confidence. - Iain. |
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Mike, The best thing here is probably simply patience until the final results are revealed. I appreciate that can be an impatient waiting game! As John mentioned, we have a tester with kit number N1820, who shares your apparent haplogroup and descends from a German named Johann Jacob Sartor (1695-1751). We also have an indication that the haplogroup you share with him is a few hundred years old. However, the age of this haplogroup is very uncertain, and we don't yet have access to your final results. Even after you get your personal results, there may still be a manual review to update the haplotree if changes are needed, which can take a few weeks. And even after this, we may not have a clear idea whether Johann Jacob Sartor is your direct ancestor, or an n-th cousin m-times removed. This will depend on exactly when the birth date of the most-recent common ancestor of the haplogroup is (its TMRCA) - this will be calculated and put on Family Tree DNA's Discover site. Unless this date is clearly before or after 1695 AD, we won't be able to say whether or not he is your direct ancestor. Thinking about brick walls is a very linear way of thinking, which we inherit from traditional genealogical methods. Y-DNA testing is a much less linear process. It only rarely breaks down brick walls, because you normally need a combination of a close match (which you may have here) and at least something written on paper to prove the exact connection. Instead, Y-DNA testing normally gives you a direction to look in, and pieces of information about your ancestral path, rather than revealing the next person up the tree. In this case, it looks like you have German ancestry on your male line, and perhaps we could even narrow that down to the Palatine region of Germany. We'll know once your results come in and are fully reviewed how much weight to put on a connection to this particular Sartor family, and we'll be able to give you some idea of where you male-line ancestors came from stretching back into prehistory if that's something that interests you. Best wishes, Iain. |
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
I've never heard the name Jacob Sartor before this. Does this mean he is an ancestor or just has the same haplogroup? On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:55?PM Michael Primm via <mrprimm53=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Thanks Vince :) On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:21?PM vineviz <vincent@...> wrote:
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýMike,You can probably go ahead and join the R-U106 project at FTDNA. If you go to the DNA Results page of that project, near the top there is a search box. ?Choose ¡°Subgroup Name¡± contains ¡°?BY79404¡± then click the search icon. ?Two kits should come up, one with Big Y test results ?and the other just a prediction (but apparently a close Y-STR match). The kit that has Big Y has been moved to R-FTF20075 which appears to be a new subclade of R-BY79404. ?Based on your story, my guess is that your test result might have helped create that subclade even though the results didn¡¯t pass final QA. ?The ancestor¡¯s surname is?Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 from Germany. Vince Vizachero
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Thank you John. On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 12:31?PM John T via <z343snp=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Hello Mike First looking at my own blocktree; A17384 is one of 11 equivalent SNPs in the R-BY79404 branch. FTDNA will always use the lead SNP, unless your result for that one failed QA, in which case they will use one of the equivalent SNPs for your reported result. Discover Haplotree Reports lists only 5 equivalent SNPs, so the other 6 must have been added in the last week or so since it was last updated. Easy to see which projects men are members of; here. Kit numbers and names are protected by privacy rules. However the kit number and surname can sometimes be found in projects. 63] FGC10367>Z319>Z8171>CTS2509>FGC363>FGC23165>FT74086>BY3730>Y132016>BY85532>BY79404
When you get your results, you will likely see them all as matches. Click on each name, and you will get their email addresses. Kind regards John |
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Name associated with a haplogroup
Hello everyone,
I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group. There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side. Below is the page I was referring to. Thank you, Mike |
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
& don¡¯t let my idiosyncratic communication style discourage you; connect with me cousin; bridge the gap of science & history! Chapter 1: My Ancestry admixture estimator says I¡¯m first most Scottish, & second French. I thought ¡°no.. this is all wrong, where is the English?¡± I attributed it my grandmother¡¯s hillbilly roots. Could be more to the story though. Great-Great Grandad was indeed an Ulster-Man. *we just recently left an era when myths like the Black Irish of Spain were prevalent. The annals of historical documentation aren¡¯t really that reliable.? before genetic studies the only way to tell if you were Norman was to look in the mirror, if handsome then yes. Now science has progressed past silly superficial tests like these (because we know factors with genetic expression can lead to facial asymmetry.)? |
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
Wow, I¡¯ve been waiting 29 years for this moment. Personalty I¡¯ve always had an affinity with the Norman & Saxon culture but thought I was Celtic Irish. I¡¯ve come to learn much since then; so what are we Corded Ware or Bell Beaker is the question right? Bell Beaker could¡¯ve moved into Britain as early as the copper age, we don¡¯t know. Corded Ware could¡¯ve stuck around in Scandinavia & Germany; became Norman or Frankish and came with that invasion. Or could¡¯ve been Vikings.. Or could¡¯ve been the people we call the Anglo-Saxon migration (my personality theory is this migration took place for centuries & was a lot earlier than literature suggests.) We also have the Flemish everyone forgets about, basically the Dutch Rhine Beakers children (unless that¡¯s a debunked theory.) So, yeah I don¡¯t know my surname might go a translation of the German name Amann. Did we arrive with the Romans? I don¡¯t know, I was thinking this morning in my head ¡°man I¡¯m probably French on my agnate and maternal side.¡± The gift of Soothsaying; Epigenetic memory; or do we exist in a predictable universe; who can say?
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Leake Little
Wayne