Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Michael,
What you need to consider is how your surname may have been Anglicized.? So if Sartor represents a potential geographic reference point would a previous generation in your line spell the name as say Primmel or Preim.? Look at German surname distribution frequencies and see how they might overlay with Sartor surname frequencies.? To figure out tree and relationships you may need to look at identifying someone "local" to you who has a surname variant of interest on Primm or Sartor then volunteer to get them tested for STR-37.? If there is a close match then you see if you can get a BigY out of them to start to flesh out the "recent" family tree via SNPs. This lays the groundwork as to which surname might apply prior 1600.? ?
Multiple individuals/cousins from each line should be tested to confirm a lineage back through the generations.? For you and Sartor testing a 3rd or 4th cousin would start the process.
Wayne K.
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 05:16:57 PM EST, Michael Primm <mrprimm53@...> wrote:
I've never heard the name Jacob Sartor before this. Does this mean he is an ancestor or just has the same haplogroup?
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:55?PM Michael Primm via <mrprimm53= [email protected]> wrote: Thanks Vince :)
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:21?PM vineviz < vincent@...> wrote: Mike,
You can probably go ahead and join the R-U106 project at FTDNA.
If you go to the DNA Results page of that project, near the top there is a search box.? Choose “Subgroup Name” contains “?BY79404” then click the search icon.? Two kits should come up, one with Big Y test results ?and the other just a prediction (but apparently a close Y-STR match).
The kit that has Big Y has been moved to R-FTF20075 which appears to be a new subclade of R-BY79404.? Based on your story, my guess is that your test result might have helped create that subclade even though the results didn’t pass final QA.? The ancestor’s surname is?Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 from Germany.
Vince Vizachero
On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:51 PM, Michael Primm < mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group.
There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side.
Below is the page I was referring to.
Thank you, Mike
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
The path from the Mesolithic down to R-FT209276 is scattered with information, some of which we know fairly well, some of which we still have to guess at.
We know that, between around 4500 BC and around 3000 BC, our ancestors were somewhere in the Pontic-Caspian steppelands - the region between the Black and Caspian seas, in the Dnieper and Volga river basins. We don't know exactly where around this wide area they lived, and several different locations have been proposed from the Urals to the Caucasus. They had some connection with the Yamnaya peoples, but we don't know exactly what, and it seems that they founded the Indo-European set of languages.
Before this, if they were in the same area, then it's a good guess that they were part of the eastern European hunter-gatherer groups. However, we lack any real information on our ancestors between about 11000 BC and 4500 BC (this is represented by the large R-M269 block of SNPs), so we can't say anything about that period with confidence.
- Iain.
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Hi Mike,
The best thing here is probably simply patience until the final results are revealed. I appreciate that can be an impatient waiting game!
As John mentioned, we have a tester with kit number N1820, who shares your apparent haplogroup and descends from a German named Johann Jacob Sartor (1695-1751). We also have an indication that the haplogroup you share with him is a few hundred years old. However, the age of this haplogroup is very uncertain, and we don't yet have access to your final results. Even after you get your personal results, there may still be a manual review to update the haplotree if changes are needed, which can take a few weeks.
And even after this, we may not have a clear idea whether Johann Jacob Sartor is your direct ancestor, or an n-th cousin m-times removed. This will depend on exactly when the birth date of the most-recent common ancestor of the haplogroup is (its TMRCA) - this will be calculated and put on Family Tree DNA's Discover site. Unless this date is clearly before or after 1695 AD, we won't be able to say whether or not he is your direct ancestor.
Thinking about brick walls is a very linear way of thinking, which we inherit from traditional genealogical methods. Y-DNA testing is a much less linear process. It only rarely breaks down brick walls, because you normally need a combination of a close match (which you may have here) and at least something written on paper to prove the exact connection. Instead, Y-DNA testing normally gives you a direction to look in, and pieces of information about your ancestral path, rather than revealing the next person up the tree. In this case, it looks like you have German ancestry on your male line, and perhaps we could even narrow that down to the Palatine region of Germany. We'll know once your results come in and are fully reviewed how much weight to put on a connection to this particular Sartor family, and we'll be able to give you some idea of where you male-line ancestors came from stretching back into prehistory if that's something that interests you.
Best wishes,
Iain.
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
I've never heard the name Jacob Sartor before this. Does this mean he is an ancestor or just has the same haplogroup?
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:55?PM Michael Primm via <mrprimm53= [email protected]> wrote: Thanks Vince :)
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:21?PM vineviz < vincent@...> wrote: Mike,
You can probably go ahead and join the R-U106 project at FTDNA.
If you go to the DNA Results page of that project, near the top there is a search box.? Choose “Subgroup Name” contains “?BY79404” then click the search icon.? Two kits should come up, one with Big Y test results ?and the other just a prediction (but apparently a close Y-STR match).
The kit that has Big Y has been moved to R-FTF20075 which appears to be a new subclade of R-BY79404.? Based on your story, my guess is that your test result might have helped create that subclade even though the results didn’t pass final QA.? The ancestor’s surname is?Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 from Germany.
Vince Vizachero
On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:51 PM, Michael Primm < mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group.
There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side.
Below is the page I was referring to.
Thank you, Mike
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
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Show quoted text
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 1:21?PM vineviz < vincent@...> wrote: Mike,
You can probably go ahead and join the R-U106 project at FTDNA.
If you go to the DNA Results page of that project, near the top there is a search box.? Choose “Subgroup Name” contains “?BY79404” then click the search icon.? Two kits should come up, one with Big Y test results ?and the other just a prediction (but apparently a close Y-STR match).
The kit that has Big Y has been moved to R-FTF20075 which appears to be a new subclade of R-BY79404.? Based on your story, my guess is that your test result might have helped create that subclade even though the results didn’t pass final QA.? The ancestor’s surname is?Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 from Germany.
Vince Vizachero
On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:51 PM, Michael Primm < mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group.
There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side.
Below is the page I was referring to.
Thank you, Mike
|
Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Mike,
You can probably go ahead and join the R-U106 project at FTDNA.
If you go to the DNA Results page of that project, near the top there is a search box. ?Choose “Subgroup Name” contains “?BY79404” then click the search icon. ?Two kits should come up, one with Big Y test results ?and the other just a prediction (but apparently a close Y-STR match).
The kit that has Big Y has been moved to R-FTF20075 which appears to be a new subclade of R-BY79404. ?Based on your story, my guess is that your test result might have helped create that subclade even though the results didn’t pass final QA. ?The ancestor’s surname is?Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 from Germany.
Vince Vizachero
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:51 PM, Michael Primm < mrprimm53@...> wrote:
Hello everyone, I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group.
There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side.
Below is the page I was referring to.
Thank you, Mike
|
Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
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Show quoted text
Hello Mike
First looking at my own blocktree; A17384 is one of 11 equivalent SNPs in the R-BY79404 branch. FTDNA will always use the lead SNP, unless your result for that one failed QA, in which case they will use one of the equivalent SNPs for your reported result.
Discover Haplotree Reports lists only 5 equivalent SNPs, so the other 6 must have been added in the last week or so since it was last updated.
Easy to see which projects men are members of; here.
Kit numbers and names are protected by privacy rules. However the kit number and surname can sometimes be found in projects. 63] FGC10367>Z319>Z8171>CTS2509>FGC363>FGC23165>FT74086>BY3730>Y132016>BY85532>BY79404
| N1820
|
Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 |
Germany |
R-FTF20075 |
| 260983
|
? |
Unknown Origin |
R-M269 |
When you get your results, you will likely see them all as matches. Click on each name, and you will get their email addresses.
Kind regards John
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Re: Name associated with a haplogroup
Hello Mike
First looking at my own blocktree; A17384 is one of 11 equivalent SNPs in the R-BY79404 branch. FTDNA will always use the lead SNP, unless your result for that one failed QA, in which case they will use one of the equivalent SNPs for your reported result.
Discover Haplotree Reports lists only 5 equivalent SNPs, so the other 6 must have been added in the last week or so since it was last updated.
Easy to see which projects men are members of; here.
Kit numbers and names are protected by privacy rules. However the kit number and surname can sometimes be found in projects. 63] FGC10367>Z319>Z8171>CTS2509>FGC363>FGC23165>FT74086>BY3730>Y132016>BY85532>BY79404
| N1820
|
Johann Jacob Sartor, b. 1695 and d. 1751 |
Germany |
R-FTF20075 |
| 260983
|
? |
Unknown Origin |
R-M269 |
When you get your results, you will likely see them all as matches. Click on each name, and you will get their email addresses.
Kind regards John
|
Name associated with a haplogroup
Hello everyone, I ordered my Big-Y about 9 weeks ago. I was supposed to get the first results (111) about now, but something went wrong in the lab. So, they needed to re-test the sample which takes a few more weeks. Ok, I can deal with that, it happens.? I originally took the Nebula Genomics DNA test prior to the FTDNA test. I got the Y-DNA haplogroup of?R-A17384, which is how I became associated with the U106 group. So, I did a search on the FTDNA site to see if it came up with any info. First off it changed the R-A17384 to?R-BY79404, which is fine. It says: The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1550 CE. He is the most recent paternal line ancestor of all members of this group.
There are 3 DNA tested descendants, and they specified that their earliest known origins are from: Germany and 2 from unknown countries. I then called the Big-Y customer service thinking I could get a name of either the man in 1550 or one of the 3 tested with my haplogroup. Nope! No can do. Must wait for the results. Bummer.
He did say I could search the haplogroup for a name but didn't say how to go about it. Any ideas? I've had this brick wall for over 20 years, searching for my 3rd GG parents on my father's side.
Below is the page I was referring to.
Thank you, Mike
|
Re: Information Regarding FT209276
Doc,?Unetice; were we EHG in the Mesolithic??
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
& don’t let my idiosyncratic communication style discourage you; connect with me cousin; bridge the gap of science & history!
Chapter 1:
Pretentious Declaration of Information Not Useful to Most?
My Ancestry admixture estimator says I’m first most Scottish, & second French. I thought “no.. this is all wrong, where is the English?” I attributed it my grandmother’s hillbilly roots. Could be more to the story though. Great-Great Grandad was indeed an Ulster-Man. *we just recently left an era when myths like the Black Irish of Spain were prevalent. The annals of historical documentation aren’t really that reliable.?
before genetic studies the only way to tell if you were Norman was to look in the mirror, if handsome then yes. Now science has progressed past silly superficial tests like these (because we know factors with genetic expression can lead to facial asymmetry.)?
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Re: Information Regarding FT209276
Wow, I’ve been waiting 29 years for this moment. Personalty I’ve always had an affinity with the Norman & Saxon culture but thought I was Celtic Irish. I’ve come to learn much since then; so what are we Corded Ware or Bell Beaker is the question right? Bell Beaker could’ve moved into Britain as early as the copper age, we don’t know. Corded Ware could’ve stuck around in Scandinavia & Germany; became Norman or Frankish and came with that invasion. Or could’ve been Vikings.. Or could’ve been the people we call the Anglo-Saxon migration (my personality theory is this migration took place for centuries & was a lot earlier than literature suggests.) We also have the Flemish everyone forgets about, basically the Dutch Rhine Beakers children (unless that’s a debunked theory.) So, yeah I don’t know my surname might go a translation of the German name Amann. Did we arrive with the Romans? I don’t know, I was thinking this morning in my head “man I’m probably French on my agnate and maternal side.” The gift of Soothsaying; Epigenetic memory; or do we exist in a predictable universe; who can say?
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Re: Mega tsunami with 65ft waves may have wiped out Stone Age populations in Britain | The Independent
Despite my facile comment I think this subject fascinating. Thanks Iain.
I went for a walk over some of those deposits this morning. The effects on my particular part of eastern Scotland were very mild. The tsunami came from the north and it's not until you reach Shetland that you get 65ft waves.
The Storegga Slides have also been credited with the final demise of Doggerland, and would have caused massive disruption to coastal communities around the North Sea. The further north you go, the more the impact would have been felt, as waves were higher and communities become more coastal. A key finding from this new study is that the result could only be replicated by a high tide (in Northumberland), which presumes close to a low tide in either Shetland or the Thames Estuary, or close to a low tide in both. High tide brings greater inundation of the land; but low tide was a time for foraging on the seashore, potentially bringing greater mortality. The tsunami occurred in late autumn, and people may still have been collecting kelp or shellfish.
River and marine flood mythologies are common across the ancient world, though their details vary as much as the causes of flooding. Various marine transgressions have been proposed for these stories, including the Atlantis myth. Storm surges are also a frequent occurrence in the British Isles and can lead to substantial mortality and damage even in modern times (e.g. the 1953 North Sea floods). The south-west was also affected by the 1755 Lisbon earthquake tsunami. The origins of these would have remained a mystery to local residents and (as with the 1607 Bristol Channel floods) were normally interpreted as divine punishment, creating the perfect scenarios for such myths to arise.
- Iain.
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Re: Mega tsunami with 65ft waves may have wiped out Stone Age populations in Britain | The Independent
I went for a walk over some of those deposits this morning. The effects on my particular part of eastern Scotland were very mild. The tsunami came from the north and it's not until you reach Shetland that you get 65ft waves.
The Storegga Slides have also been credited with the final demise of Doggerland, and would have caused massive disruption to coastal communities around the North Sea. The further north you go, the more the impact would have been felt, as waves were higher and communities become more coastal. A key finding from this new study is that the result could only be replicated by a high tide (in Northumberland), which presumes close to a low tide in either Shetland or the Thames Estuary, or close to a low tide in both. High tide brings greater inundation of the land; but low tide was a time for foraging on the seashore, potentially bringing greater mortality. The tsunami occurred in late autumn, and people may still have been collecting kelp or shellfish.
River and marine flood mythologies are common across the ancient world, though their details vary as much as the causes of flooding. Various marine transgressions have been proposed for these stories, including the Atlantis myth. Storm surges are also a frequent occurrence in the British Isles and can lead to substantial mortality and damage even in modern times (e.g. the 1953 North Sea floods). The south-west was also affected by the 1755 Lisbon earthquake tsunami. The origins of these would have remained a mystery to local residents and (as with the 1607 Bristol Channel floods) were normally interpreted as divine punishment, creating the perfect scenarios for such myths to arise.
- Iain.
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Re: Mega tsunami with 65ft waves may have wiped out Stone Age populations in Britain | The Independent
Maybe this is the origin of the story later told by Plato and learned from priests in Ancient Egypt that relates to the destruction of Atlantis “beyond the pillars of Hercules” (Gibraltar).?
Speculative but perhaps it became a story that was retold over generations.
On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:02?PM, Mike Tryon <michaeldtryon@...> wrote:
?The original research paper that this news item is based on is here:
The newspaper headline is clearly meant to attract attention rather than convey the conclusions of the study.
The very well studied Storegga Slide of 8150 BP, caused a large tsunami which resulted in wave heights of 2-4 meters along the coast of Scotland. The associated run-up of many kilometers likely inundated coastal mesolithic communities and caused significant
loss of life and resources. This may have contributed to short-term population decline in coastal Scotland, coinciding with a much broader population decline associated with a period of decreasing global temperature that began about 8200 BP and lasted for
a few hundred years.
Mike
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Re: Mega tsunami with 65ft waves may have wiped out Stone Age populations in Britain | The Independent
The original research paper that this news item is based on is here:
The newspaper headline is clearly meant to attract attention rather than convey the conclusions of the study.
The very well studied Storegga Slide of 8150 BP, caused a large tsunami which resulted in wave heights of 2-4 meters along the coast of Scotland. The associated run-up of many kilometers likely inundated coastal mesolithic communities and caused significant loss of life and resources. This may have contributed to short-term population decline in coastal Scotland, coinciding with a much broader population decline associated with a period of decreasing global temperature that began about 8200 BP and lasted for a few hundred years.
Mike
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Mega tsunami with 65ft waves may have wiped out Stone Age populations in Britain | The Independent
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/mega-tsunami-stone-age-britain-b2483031.html
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Re: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06865-0
Hi Rob,
BAM files of these aDNA are available in the European Nucleotide Archives (ENA) database:
Among these aDNAs, NEO752 was yet analyzed by FTDNA (Mades? 752): R-Z18 (3 positive reads for U106, then for R-Z18: 1 positive read for Z16, Z370, 2 for Z371, 3 for Z369).
I don't know (but I assume that was the case) if the other R1b aDNAs in this study were analyzed by FTDNA (we can no longer see the R-P310 aDNAs in the corresponding public Discover tree...).
However, several forums address this paper:
(see page 4)
An article from this same scientific project deals more specifically with Danish aDNAs:
Cheers,
Ewenn
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https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06865-0
Wondering if anyone has tried to look more closely at the 6 R-P310 in Neolithic Denmark in this study? I don't if they Have Bam files. Would be interesting to know what their downstream haplogroups were,if any.
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Wayne
Ewenn