Re: Projects for Sub-groups of U106
At some time within the next few years I think it is likely that the project group R-U106 will be split into a number of smaller groups. It would be beneficial if our excellent group administrators gave some thought to how best to do this!
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Kevin Terry
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Re: The genetic origin of the Goths
Thanks, being Z18 myself I will give this a read.
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Re: Projects for Sub-groups of U106
Charles wrote:
"We have had discussions over time about splitting the project, or creating projects for the major branches.? However, this creates problems for our analytical efforts, and would require Admins who would be part of a team effort.? Other major branches of the Y-Tree have numerous layered Hg projects, which creates confusion and the question of what is that really accomplishing?"
You can have it both ways. You can have a large project for all R-U106 people, what I call a "master" project, along with "sub of" medium-sized projects that are more manageable, provide more value and.? This does require coordination. At least one admin from the master project should be an admin on each subclade project. There is no perfection in any of this and it requires patience and work, but it is doable.
The basic issue is that the FTDNA project system and GAP (administrator) tools have limitations. They are not going to be fixed any time soon. A key limitation is difficulty managing a large number of subgroups. There are other issues, but displays are generally slow on large projects.
A Y haplogroup project "refined subgrouping" strategy gives you long ancestral SNP path names in the subgroup titles, is sorted by haplotree branch sequence, segregates true paragroup (*) people from lightly tested. This makes the Group Time Tree tool extremely valuable.
The idea is to provide clarity to the project members and understanding of the haplotree. The more people that understand, the more people that want to test deeper.
You folks should do what you want, but there is clear value in medium sized subcladed projects. I have posted about this on the R1b FB forum and tracked progress there.
"Our projects should try to provide value to our members. FTDNA projects (groups) are free and are a great way to share information beyond matching back to ancient clade mates. This helps us visualize the tree as real people, not just SNPs. However, this is a challenge and I’m updating you with the direction I encourage and the progress we’ve seen.
Now more then ever, joining projects with refined subgrouping is important. Refined subgroup titles have always made it easier to understand relationships on the project Y Classic/Colorized reports. Refined titles with deep SNP ancestral paths are critical, especially to help in viewing the new Discover Group Time Trees. You can select on an SNP and just view that section of the tree.
...
o Maintain refined subgroups
- Down to the terminal haplogroup level for all members
- Indexed/Sequenced in order of the haplotree
- Use long SNP ancestral paths for each haplogroup/subgroup
R-L21 and a few other huge projects bring along a higher need for coordination. R-L21 is large with over 11,000 members and 10,000 haplotree subclades. Since this is way too many subclades (actually a good thing!) the R-L21 must coordinate with subprojects like the R-L1335, R-M222, R-Z253 projects and many others.
...
Some people tell me this is too much work for project administrators. That's why I call this project mania, but it is worth it. The primary work is the setup. Once the proper subgroupings are in place, periodic maintenance is not a big deal."
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Re: Projects for Sub-groups of U106
One advantage I find being in the R-U106 project is that there is a unique Y-STR pattern ("21-21") which begins in R-FGC15335 and then continues in a number of branches beneath it. While there are testers in other projects with this pattern, the R-U106 project appears to have the largest number of testers with this pattern. ?Of course, this has to do with being a haplogroup project as compared to a surname or geographical project with each project having its unique focus. ?When I communicate with testers who have this pattern I invite them to join the R-U106 project in addition to whatever other projects they are in. ?They can find surname matches or learn more about common geographical ancestry in other projects. ?
In the R-U106 project they and we can find Y-STR and Y-SNP matches and learn more about our results from a greater pool of other testers with similar results. ?Not to mention the added benefit of the studies and analysis provided us by the project admins. ?While it is a valid idea to have separate projects for the large subgroups, I think there are more resources available and more opportunities for quality study, analysis, and learning by participating together in one major haplogroup project. ?I can learn by being in a large subgroup but I can learn more by being in a haplogroup project where I can ?see my subgroup in relation both to other subgroups and in relation to the R-U106 haplogroup as a whole.
Timothy
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The genetic origin of the Goths
A quite interesting article tracing the genetic history of Goths and their Y-DNA legacy in Europe. Mainly about? I1 haplogroup but R1b also mentioned, including my beloved Z18.
https://genomicatlas.org/2023/10/26/the-genetic-origin-of-the-goths/
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Re: Projects for Sub-groups of U106
Best way to learn more is contact me or another admin through the contact info in the surname project
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Re: New Globetrekker feature
For those who might be interested, I have made a small update of my R-U106 European frequency map by country, following the addition of 11 "new" aDNAs by FTDNA: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/j7r4p4goldoqtflzglbfd/R-U106_European_country_Map_frequency_10292023.jpg?rlkey=i9pvyczazs33vcc040d0wl15v&dl=0 New aDNAs:
| ID |
Name |
Country |
Y Haplogroup |
Study |
Latitude |
Longitude |
Time |
| FVD002 |
Fonyód 2 |
Hungary |
R-U106 |
Vyas et al. 2023 |
46.752 |
17.578 |
{'mean': 450, 'oldest': 400, 'youngest': 500, 'known': True} |
| PCA0485 |
Pruszcz Gdański 485 |
Poland |
R-Z18 |
Stolarek et al. 2023 |
54.26 |
18.642 |
{'mean': 200, 'oldest': 100, 'youngest': 300, 'known': True} |
| PCA0531 |
Czarnówko 531 |
Poland |
R-Z18 |
Stolarek et al. 2023 |
54.558 |
17.692 |
{'mean': 200, 'oldest': 100, 'youngest': 300, 'known': True} |
| FVD005 |
Fonyód 5 |
Hungary |
R-ZP156 |
Vyas et al. 2023 |
46.752 |
17.578 |
{'mean': 450, 'oldest': 400, 'youngest': 500, 'known': True} |
| PCA0479 |
Pruszcz Gdański 479 |
Poland |
R-FGC17471 |
Stolarek et al. 2023 |
54.26 |
18.642 |
{'mean': 200, 'oldest': 100, 'youngest': 300, 'known': True} |
| PER04B |
Pericei 4B |
Romania |
R-FTF176 |
G?ngu?? et al. 2023 |
47.231 |
22.866 |
{'mean': 1500, 'oldest': 1400, 'youngest': 1600, 'known': True} |
| PCA0422 |
Santok 422 |
Poland |
R-S22194 |
Stolarek et al. 2023 |
52.733 |
15.402 |
{'mean': 1100, 'oldest': 1000, 'youngest': 1200, 'known': True} |
| PCA0193 |
L?d 193 |
Poland |
R-FTE67170 |
Stolarek et al. 2023 |
52.204 |
17.892 |
{'mean': 1100, 'oldest': 1000, 'youngest': 1200, 'known': True} |
| PER01 |
Pericei 1 |
Romania |
R-BY18860 |
G?ngu?? et al. 2023 |
47.231 |
22.866 |
{'mean': 1550, 'oldest': 1550, 'youngest': 1600, 'known': True} |
| PER03-1 |
Pericei 3 |
Romania |
R-BY18860 |
G?ngu?? et al. 2023 |
47.231 |
22.866 |
{'mean': 1550, 'oldest': 1550, 'youngest': 1600, 'known': True} |
| NEO752 |
Mades? 752 |
Denmark |
R-Z18 |
Allentoft et al. 2023 |
55.621 |
11.331 |
{'mean': -1699, 'oldest': -1864, 'youngest': -1533, 'known': True} |
NEO752, situated in Zealand, Denmark, thus becomes the oldest aDNA recorded to date for R-Z18, and its radiocarbon dating, ~1700 BCE, is relatively close to its TMRCA, ~2224 BCE [2862; 1669 BCE]. Cheers, Ewenn
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
What about “ ?Brendan the?狈补惫颈驳补迟辞谤”500ad. Is everyone mythical? R-U106 has been found from Labrador to Florida.
The key is not only The DNA that was found but the carbon dating.?
If you follow the science and forget the politics and people influences over the centuries you will fined U106 concentration in areas?New England, Labrador and into Elizabeth Island Ohio
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On Oct 29, 2023, at 6:20?AM, William Warman <williamwarman@...> wrote:
? Read about this “ At an Indian village in Mexico, Marcos heard of a country to the northward where there were seven cities with houses of two, three, and four stories” On Oct 29, 2023, at 5:56?AM, Inventorb via groups.io <williamwarman@...> wrote:
? Columbus was not the first European to reach the New World. About six hundred years earlier, Vikings from Norway settled in Iceland, and from the Icelandic chronicles we learn that about 986 A.D. Eric the Red planted a colony in Greenland. His son, Leif Ericsson, about 1000 A.D., led a party south-westward to a stony country which was probably the coast of Labrador or Newfoundland. Going on southward, they came at last to a spot where wild grapes grew. To this spot, probably on the New England coast.
On Oct 29, 2023, at 3:39?AM, Ewenn <gwenng008@...> wrote:
? Hi,
This is probably more of a myth than anything else: story of Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd,
Ewenn Le dim. 29 oct. 2023 à 02:36, Geoff blackburn < geoffrox08@...> a écrit?: This question as to when R1b (and perhaps U106) entered North America is an absolutely fascinating topic but surely it should be in its own subject string regards Geoff
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
>
> Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Read about this “ At an Indian village in Mexico, Marcos heard of a country to the northward where there were seven cities with houses of two, three, and four stories”
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 29, 2023, at 5:56?AM, Inventorb via groups.io <williamwarman@...> wrote:
? Columbus was not the first European to reach the New World. About six hundred years earlier, Vikings from Norway settled in Iceland, and from the Icelandic chronicles we learn that about 986 A.D. Eric the Red planted a colony in Greenland. His son, Leif Ericsson, about 1000 A.D., led a party south-westward to a stony country which was probably the coast of Labrador or Newfoundland. Going on southward, they came at last to a spot where wild grapes grew. To this spot, probably on the New England coast.
On Oct 29, 2023, at 3:39?AM, Ewenn <gwenng008@...> wrote:
? Hi,
This is probably more of a myth than anything else: story of Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd,
Ewenn Le dim. 29 oct. 2023 à 02:36, Geoff blackburn < geoffrox08@...> a écrit?: This question as to when R1b (and perhaps U106) entered North America is an absolutely fascinating topic but surely it should be in its own subject string regards Geoff
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
>
> Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Columbus was not the first European to reach the New World. About six hundred years earlier, Vikings from Norway settled in Iceland, and from the Icelandic chronicles we learn that about 986 A.D. Eric the Red planted a colony in Greenland. His son, Leif Ericsson, about 1000 A.D., led a party south-westward to a stony country which was probably the coast of Labrador or Newfoundland. Going on southward, they came at last to a spot where wild grapes grew. To this spot, probably on the New England coast.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 29, 2023, at 3:39?AM, Ewenn <gwenng008@...> wrote:
? Hi,
This is probably more of a myth than anything else: story of Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd,
Ewenn Le dim. 29 oct. 2023 à 02:36, Geoff blackburn < geoffrox08@...> a écrit?: This question as to when R1b (and perhaps U106) entered North America is an absolutely fascinating topic but surely it should be in its own subject string regards Geoff
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
>
> Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Hi,
This is probably more of a myth than anything else: story of Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd,
Ewenn
Le dim. 29 oct. 2023 à 02:36, Geoff blackburn < geoffrox08@...> a écrit?: This question as to when R1b (and perhaps U106) entered North America is an absolutely fascinating topic but surely it should be in its own subject string regards Geoff
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
>
> Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This question as to when R1b (and perhaps U106) entered North America is an absolutely fascinating topic but surely it should be in its own subject string regards Geoff
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
> On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
>
> Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Sorry, my email hiccupped and I didn't see the previous replies before responding.
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ian Dundas via groups.io Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 7:59 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via groups.io Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie. “Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“ On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Are you saying that there is archeological data showing R1b existed in the Americas before "discovery" by Europeans?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Inventorb via groups.io Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 3:57 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie. “Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“ On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
This statement is a cover up for bad records or guessing
as dna and carbon dating doesn’t lie.
“Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States“
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 28, 2023, at 12:09?AM, Brian Swann <brian_swann@...> wrote:
Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States
|
Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
If it's right that the settlement at L' Anse aux Meadows was only in use for twenty years or so, and the Viking opinion of the natives as 'skraelings' ('wretches) - who outnumbered them considerably - is accurate, then the likelihood of a 'liaison' occurring and leaving a Viking line in Canada seems vanishingly small.
I believe this would apply to the other Vinland settlements, and my understanding is that historians agree the settlements?weren't sustainable or supported from the Greenland 'base'.
But, hey, respect is due - they sure got around and made quite an impression, especially in the Isles,?being part of the genetic jigsaw for many Brits and our, umm... surrogates.?
You wouldn't want one as a lodger though.
Al
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
Has either Iain Macdonald or FTDNA ever discussed this possibility with you Vince [?] and this particular ancient DNA sample.
?
It would seem important enough that someone should pick up this question and try to run with it.? As FTDNA seem to include inputs from ancient DNA samples into their Haplotree of Mankind have you ever tried there.
?
Next weekend some of us will be listening to the DNA presentations at the Houston FTDNA jamboree – given your longstanding interests in these topics it seems to me as worthy of serious consideration.
?
I do have one other individual I could approach to look at this topic – but would prefer to discuss that option off-list for personal reasons.
?
Brian
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Vince Tilroe
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
?
[Edited Message Follows]
"First, we filter out samples with country/haplogroup combinations that don’t make sense for Pre-Columbian travel. For example, Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States, nor should Native American haplogroup Q-M3 be in Europe."
I really wish someone would seriously challenge the notion that there's absolutely no R1b inherent in native North Americans.? R1b-M269 is estimated to be approximately 19,000 years old (circa 17,000 BCE), branching off from R1-M173 just after the last glacial
maximum period, during which the Bering Land Bridge was still traverse-able.
noticed that the ancient MA-1 specimen (upper paleolithic Mal'ta–Buret' culture from Siberia, the so-called Mal'ta Boy) shares ancestry with both Eurasians and
Native North Americans, and is dated to approximately 24,000 ybp. I recall that a genetic genealogist on the old DNA-Forums.org site had investigated the Y-chromosome data for MA-1, and found that he may have branched off at an intermediate SNP within the
R1-M173 block.
Consequently I hold onto the hypothesis that some Native North Americans may have branched off between R1-M173 (circa 20,000 BCE) and R1b-P297 (circa 12,000 BCE).
Best regards,
Vince T.
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
That Viking Settlement is known as L'Anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, Canada.
No one knows if they had left any descendants on what is now Canadian soil, and no evidence is known of any contemporary adjacent indigenous occupation that could purvey a "cultural exchange".? Which isn't to say that they definitively do not exist, just that it is unlikely.
Best regards,
Vince T.
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
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On Oct 27, 2023, at 3:03 PM, Vince Tilroe <vtilroe@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
"First, we filter out samples with country/haplogroup combinations that don’t make sense for Pre-Columbian travel. For example, Eurasian haplogroup R1b should not be in the United States, nor should Native American haplogroup Q-M3 be in Europe."
I really wish someone would seriously challenge the notion that there's absolutely no R1b inherent in native North Americans.? R1b-M269 is estimated to be approximately 19,000 years old (circa 17,000 BCE), branching off from R1-M173 just after the last glacial maximum period, during which the Bering Land Bridge was still traverse-able.
noticed that the ancient MA-1 specimen (upper paleolithic Mal'ta–Buret' culture from Siberia, the so-called Mal'ta Boy) shares ancestry with both Eurasians and Native North Americans, and is dated to approximately 24,000 ybp. I recall that a genetic genealogist on the old DNA-Forums.org site had investigated the Y-chromosome data for MA-1, and found that he may have branched off at an intermediate SNP within the R1-M173 block.
Consequently I hold onto the hypothesis that some Native North Americans may have branched off between R1-M173 (circa 20,000 BCE) and R1b-P297 (circa 12,000 BCE).
Best regards,
Vince T.
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Re: Question re: changes to haplogroup assignment
L'Anse aux Meadows, a Unesco world heritage site in Newfoundland
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On Oct 27, 2023, at 1:04?PM, Inventorb via groups.io <williamwarman@...> wrote:
? “ ?Vikings had a settlement in North America exactly one thousand years ago, centuries before Christopher Columbus arrived in the Americas, a study says.Scientists say a new dating technique analysing tree rings has provided evidence that Vikings occupied a site in Newfoundland, Canada, in 1021AD” On Oct 27, 2023, at 12:24?PM, Vince Tilroe <vtilroe@...> wrote:
?Hi Joe,
FTDNA dates R-M269 to about 4350 BCE, after a very long multi-millennial population bottleneck following the .? There are well over a hundred Y-SNPs in the R-M269 block.
You could try testing your father-in-law for (or failing that, P312) which are probably the most common sub- R-M269 haplogroups in Spain, and presumably among Spanish / Portuguese conquistadors and their descendants.
Best regards,
Vince Tilroe
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Kevin Terry
Timothy May
Ewenn
Inventorb
Al