Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Thank You I am R-L493 and mtDNA N1a1a1a2 ?In Our group we’ve been looking for a combination that coincides.
Ribe 3 fits and these two other burials we looked at?
In addition to various others.
We have a method to our results but are not quite ready to contribute these results yet.
Thanks Again for your hard work Bill Warman
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On Apr 9, 2025, at 2:05?PM, Iain via groups.io <gubbins@...> wrote:
? Ah, that clears things up a bit. Still, Ribe 3 is not related to R-L493 for 4500 years. It has essentially zero relevance for R-L493, its ancestors or descendants - Ribe 3 has less connection to anyone in R-L493 (past or present) than you or I have to Alexander the Great. There are much more relevant burials, like Hesselbjerg 14, that you could look to for guidance instead. ? - Iain.
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Ah, that clears things up a bit. Still, Ribe 3 is not related to R-L493 for 4500 years. It has essentially zero relevance for R-L493, its ancestors or descendants - Ribe 3 has less connection to anyone in R-L493 (past or present) than you or I have to Alexander the Great. There are much more relevant burials, like Hesselbjerg 14, that you could look to for guidance instead. ? - Iain.
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
In the R-L493 community we have discussed how we are related. And the Ribe 3 burial shows us a lot.
Thank You
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On Apr 9, 2025, at 10:36?AM, Inventorb via groups.io <williamwarman@...> wrote:
? Hi lain all I said is?
“I agree Ribe 3 ties the Sir John Picton 1285 , Hugues 'Magnus' de Vermandois (Capet), ?Thomas Angell and Warman families together”
On Apr 9, 2025, at 9:58?AM, Iain via groups.io <gubbins@...> wrote:
? Hi Bill, ? I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. The thread you're replying to is about R-Z18. Ribe 3 is part of R-FTA52889, on completely the other side of R-U106. ? Ribe 3 is related to the R-FGC10252 Picton family via R-L47. R-L47 is about 4500 years old, contains over 7000 modern testers at Family Tree DNA, and probably represents about 1% of men of European descent. So you're not wrong to say he's related to them, but it is a very obscure relationship. ? We have a member of the Capetian dynasty tested at Family Tree DNA. Assuming they are who they say they are (which we have no reason to doubt), their ancestry is certain beyond reasonable doubt. They are in a completely different branch of R-U106 again, R-BY16435 under R-DF98. There is another tester in R-FGC15439 under R-Z159 who claims descent from Hugh Capet. We have not had an opportunity to examine his genealogy in detail. NPEs are always a possibility, but proving this genealogy would be an uphill struggle. ? I'm also not sure where the Angell family fits in. To my knowledge, we don't have a test from this family. So I'm at a bit of a loss making sense of your information here! ? Best wishes, ? Iain.
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Hi lain all I said is?
“I agree Ribe 3 ties the Sir John Picton 1285 , Hugues 'Magnus' de Vermandois (Capet), ?Thomas Angell and Warman families together”
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On Apr 9, 2025, at 9:58?AM, Iain via groups.io <gubbins@...> wrote:
? Hi Bill, ? I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. The thread you're replying to is about R-Z18. Ribe 3 is part of R-FTA52889, on completely the other side of R-U106. ? Ribe 3 is related to the R-FGC10252 Picton family via R-L47. R-L47 is about 4500 years old, contains over 7000 modern testers at Family Tree DNA, and probably represents about 1% of men of European descent. So you're not wrong to say he's related to them, but it is a very obscure relationship. ? We have a member of the Capetian dynasty tested at Family Tree DNA. Assuming they are who they say they are (which we have no reason to doubt), their ancestry is certain beyond reasonable doubt. They are in a completely different branch of R-U106 again, R-BY16435 under R-DF98. There is another tester in R-FGC15439 under R-Z159 who claims descent from Hugh Capet. We have not had an opportunity to examine his genealogy in detail. NPEs are always a possibility, but proving this genealogy would be an uphill struggle. ? I'm also not sure where the Angell family fits in. To my knowledge, we don't have a test from this family. So I'm at a bit of a loss making sense of your information here! ? Best wishes, ? Iain.
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
Hi Bill, ? I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. The thread you're replying to is about R-Z18. Ribe 3 is part of R-FTA52889, on completely the other side of R-U106. ? Ribe 3 is related to the R-FGC10252 Picton family via R-L47. R-L47 is about 4500 years old, contains over 7000 modern testers at Family Tree DNA, and probably represents about 1% of men of European descent. So you're not wrong to say he's related to them, but it is a very obscure relationship. ? We have a member of the Capetian dynasty tested at Family Tree DNA. Assuming they are who they say they are (which we have no reason to doubt), their ancestry is certain beyond reasonable doubt. They are in a completely different branch of R-U106 again, R-BY16435 under R-DF98. There is another tester in R-FGC15439 under R-Z159 who claims descent from Hugh Capet. We have not had an opportunity to examine his genealogy in detail. NPEs are always a possibility, but proving this genealogy would be an uphill struggle. ? I'm also not sure where the Angell family fits in. To my knowledge, we don't have a test from this family. So I'm at a bit of a loss making sense of your information here! ? Best wishes, ? Iain.
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Re: New R-U106-Relevant Preprint: Early R-U106 Sample from the Rhine-Meuse
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
It would be even better if there was any documentary evidence for a Sir John Picton of 1285.
He does not appear in any of the Welsh heraldic / bardic pedigrees I am aware of. There is a William de Picton who can be dated to around this period and sometimes appears in heraldic pedigrees as Sir William de Picton. But he does not appear in compilations like W. A. Shaw, The Knights of England (1908). Sometimes in these early times the title 'Sir' was just used to show someone was significant in the local community and could be applied to priests, for example, and not necessarily knighted by the king.
Brian
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Inventorb via groups.io Sent: 09 April 2025 04:37 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [R1b-U106] Phylogeography update: R-Z18 lain I think Ribe 3 ties the Sir John Picton 1285 , Hugues 'Magnus' de Vermandois (Capet), Thomas Angell and Warman families together. Bill
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Re: Phylogeography update: R-Z18
lain
I think Ribe 3 ties the Sir John Picton 1285 , Hugues 'Magnus' de Vermandois (Capet), Thomas Angell and Warman families together.
Bill
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Re: New R-U106-Relevant Preprint: Early R-U106 Sample from the Rhine-Meuse
Cool. Thanks for the notice, Vince. Can't wait to read it.
?
Shane
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New R-U106-Relevant Preprint: Early R-U106 Sample from the Rhine-Meuse
A new preprint by Olalde et al. (2025), "Long-term hunter-gatherer continuity in the Rhine-Meuse region was disrupted by local formation of expansive Bell Beaker groups," has just been released. It offers important new insight into early R-L151 dynamics—including a key early sample of R-U106.
Big Picture:
- The paper reframes the Rhine–Meuse region (modern Netherlands, Belgium, and western Germany) as a key formation zone for populations later associated with the Bell Beaker cultural package—not just a transit corridor. - These groups formed locally via admixture between Corded Ware–derived individuals and indigenous Neolithic groups, the latter retaining unusually high Western Hunter-Gatherer ancestry (~50%). - This admixed population—while expressing Bell Beaker material culture—became the main vector for expansion into Britain and beyond, contributing both R-P312 and Steppe-derived autosomal ancestry.
Why This Matters for R-U106:
One individual from Mienakker (I12902), dated to 2852–2574 BCE, is especially relevant:
- Associated with Corded Ware material culture, but with only ~11% Steppe ancestry. - Y-haplogroup: R-U106—the earliest R-U106 sample known in the Rhine-Meuse, and among the earliest in Western Europe. - Burial context lacks classic CW features—suggesting local integration, not large-scale migration.
This sample supports the idea that R-U106's westward movement began earlier and more diffusely, likely through low-level male-mediated gene flow into a transitional zone like the Rhine-Meuse wetlands.
Key Takeaways:
- Bell Beaker material culture, Steppe ancestry, and R1b lineages didn’t always move together. - R-U106 may have entered the region before the Bell Beaker formation event, and persisted through local fusion processes. - The Rhine–Meuse may be a critical piece in reconstructing R-U106's early history in Western Europe.
Link to the preprint:
—痴颈苍肠别
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Historical and archaeogenomic identification of high-status Englishmen at Jamestown, Virginia
Published online by Cambridge University Press:??13 August 2024
?
?
The authors report on ancient DNA data from two human skeletons buried within the chancel of the 1608–1616 church at the North American colonial settlement of Jamestown, Virginia. Available archaeological, osteological and documentary evidence suggest that these individuals are Sir Ferdinando Wenman and Captain William West, kinsmen of the colony's first Governor, Thomas West, Third Baron De La Warr. Genomic analyses of the skeletons identify unexpected maternal relatedness as both carried the mitochondrial haplogroup H10e. In this unusual case, aDNA prompted further historical research that led to the discovery of illegitimacy in the West family, an aspect of identity omitted, likely intentionally, from genealogical records.
?
Wenman (JR2992C), the first English knight to die in America, was a first cousin of Thomas West. Wenman was related both by blood and marriage to highly prominent families in England during the Elizabethan period (Remington Reference Remington2014). In contrast, the lineage for Captain William West (JR170C) is obscure. He is referenced in one account as Thomas West's nephew, in a second as a “kinsman” (Kelso Reference Kelso2017: 175), and, based on a genealogical review, seemed more likely to be his uncle (Remington Reference Remington2014). Wenman came to Virginia in June 1610 as a 34-year-old experienced military officer and investor in the Virginia Company. He arrived with Thomas West and Captain William West, who was a man estimated to be in his early 20s. By July or August of 1610, Wenman was dead. Captain West died in a conflict with Native Americans around the same time. Their formal interments in the church chancel were likely personally directed by Thomas West.
?
Genomic data were generated from the petrous portion of a temporal bone from JR2992C and a mandibular molar from JR170C (see OSM section 2, Table S3). Both skeletons exhibit relatively poor DNA preservation, with a total of 76 449 of the roughly 1.2 million targeted autosomal single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) positions sequenced for individual JR2992C, and only 12 657 targeted SNPs sequenced for individual JR170C (Table 1).?Despite poor DNA preservation, coverage was sufficient to assign both individuals to mitochondrial haplogroup H10e?(Table S4; Weissenstiner et al. Reference Weissensteiner2016). The mitochondrial lineage H is commonly observed in much of west Eurasia, occurring at the highest frequencies in present-day Western Europe, where it accounts for more than 40 per cent of all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages (Torroni et al. Reference Torroni, Achilli, Macaulay, Richards and Bandelt2006; Brotherton et al. Reference Brotherton2013).?Within this lineage, the relatively rare haplogroup H10e has been observed in Europe in multiple ancient individuals, including two medieval individuals from Finland?(Carvalho et al. Reference Carvalho2016; ?versti et al. Reference ?versti2019).
?
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L'Anse aux Meadows
Newfoundland?
Canada
East coast states to South Carolina?
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On Apr 7, 2025, at 1:22?PM, Richard Dean via groups.io <tvchannel01@...> wrote:
? One location is Jamestown settlement in Virgina.?
There was DNA analysis of human remains found at the site of a church built in 1608.?? Approximately 36 burials have been located
inside the southwest corner of the Fort.? DNA analysis suggests some of the men are kinsmen of the colony's first governor, Thomas West.
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One location is Jamestown settlement in Virgina.?
There was DNA analysis of human remains found at the site of a church built in 1608.?? Approximately 36 burials have been located
inside the southwest corner of the Fort.? DNA analysis suggests some of the men are kinsmen of the colony's first governor, Thomas West.
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Bill
I think your message is missing some important context. ?Can you clarify what you are looking for?
Vince
On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 08:27 AM, Inventorb wrote:
I can’t find North American burials listed on your ancient DNA list.
Is there a different list that covers aDNA results for North America?
Bill
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??? Please provide grave list?
On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 11:27?AM Inventorb via <williamwarman= [email protected]> wrote: I can’t find North American burials listed on your ancient DNA list.
Is there a different list that covers aDNA results for North America?
Bill
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I can’t find North American burials listed on your ancient DNA list.
Is there a different list that covers aDNA results for North America?
Bill
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Re: New Ancient DNA Paper
One interesting thing about the Rhine/Meuse Beaker paper with the new samples is they re-ran some IBD with new and older samples.??
In the case of Oostwoud sample I4070, dated?1880-1627 calBCE, who is just?U106 at FTDNA, (but maybe also Z381>R-Z301/Z304?), he shares a 16 cM block with 3DT16 from Driffield Terrace, who is?U106>Z2265>BY30097>FTT8>Z381>Z156>Z306 at FTDNA (and maybe also R-Z156>DF96>S11515>L1), despite the two samples being ~1700 years apart.
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FYI,
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Date: March 31, 2025 at 8:26:49?AM EDT
To: dan_draggon@...
Subject: openSNP: We're shutting down. Thank you for your support
?Dear openSNP user,
today we are writing to inform you about our plans for sunsetting openSNP on April 30, 2025.
On this date, we will shut down the openSNP website and delete **all** the data that we have stored - this includes your email address, password and where applicable genetic and phenotypic data.
With this most important bit out of the way, we want to briefly outline our reasoning:
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In 2025, with 23andMe going bankrupt and struggling to even find any buyers for themselves and the data they control, it seems less clear what the use and potential benefit of these data is. While data hosted through openSNP has been used for a number
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Re: New Ancient DNA Paper
A reconstructed picture and more information about our oldest relative can be found here:
https://collectie.huisvanhilde.nl/pdf/publieksbrochure_steentijdman.pdf
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Re: New Ancient DNA Paper
It took me a while to work out where the source of this quote was - and to my surprise it was something I wrote myself back in 2015. ? We've got access to much better data than we did 10 years ago, so we can make a much better guess at this number. The answer also depends on whether by "diaspora" you count only men who've inherited the Y chromosome themselves, or include women who have R-P311 up their direct male line. If you count women, then my guess from our current data is somewhere in the region of 600-700 million. If you don't, it's obviously half of this - about 300-350 million. ? To get these percentages, I've estimated the percentage of R-P311 in each country by dividing the R-P311 testers at Family Tree DNA by the A-PR2921 testers, then multiplied that by the population of the country. I haven't been through each country exhaustively, only European countries and the populous ones in which R-P311 is common. Of these 600-700 million, around 175 million are in European countries (in which I'm including Russia and Turkey but not the Caucasus countries). Around 200 million are in the USA, around 23 million are in South Africa, at least 45 million are in former British empire colonies (Canada, Australia, NZ), and at least 187 million are in Latin America. ? - Iain.
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Inventorb
