Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Hello, will this file be updated again soon to reflect the new members (including my cousin David Tucker - #573883) who have recently tested positive for R-A11376? ?
I am having a discussion with some of David's Tucker cousins about joining the project and would like to point them to the tree file to show where they will most likely fit in.
Thanks Tons!
Joel Overton (admin for #573883)
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
If you contact him, the match you are referring to is a Y-DNY37 match to Doug Liptrot. ?
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From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 7:52 PM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: Re: [R1b-S6881] New file uploaded to R1b-S6881? ? I wonder if there is any connection between the last name Grevois and Graves.?
? OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
The record for Roger Grevois does not list an “Earliest Known Ancestor.”? But he does show as R-M259 at Y-DNA67? ?randallhammond@... ? ?
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From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 7:52 PM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: Re: [R1b-S6881] New file uploaded to R1b-S6881? ? I wonder if there is any connection between the last name Grevois and Graves.?
? OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
|
Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
I wonder if there is any connection between the last name Grevois and Graves.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to
9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as
did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and
Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
There was a pointer to an interesting article in a recent U106 group post. It is an article in the Guild of One Name Studies magazine on the Acree DNA project. The gist of it matches my own thinking that as SNP testing becomes cheaper then STR testing is of increasingly limited value. In many cases better results can be achieved with SNP testing strategies. The exception is where SNP discovery is needed, as that requires the next generation tests like BigY.
I have never paid much attention to STR matches that weren't backed by a common name or other corroborating evidence. Amongst the S6881 Warburtons there are SNP results which are surprising considering the STR results. For example there was no indication that Ian would be so distant from Eric and three other Warburtons that share one of Eric's unique SNPs. One of those three had a genetic distance of 4 on a 12 marker test.
So my recommendation is to concentrate on SNP testing, maybe using YSEQ where a single SNP can be tested for $17.50.
A fact of life is that a proportion of results within a single name will result from non paternal events, some quite ancient. This could be the reason for your Wigan results. Also you may have multiple originators of the name, given the geographic distribution.
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
I only received the first column of the table. ?
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From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 7:05 PM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: RE: [R1b-S6881] Liptrap/Liptrot testing? ? Well, that table didn’t come through well How can I send an excel table? ? ? ? Like I said, I really expect someone on the A11377 branch of S6881 to be a “Match.”? And isn’t the yDNA67 test supposed to thin out matches at yDNA37, rather than to find more?
At ?yDNA67, Liptrap/Trapp matches include: GD-Liptrap | GD-Trapp | ? | x | James Liptrap | 1 | ? | 1 | George Trapp | x | ? | 3 | Douglas W Latham | 4 | ? | 4 | Roy Stanley Graves | 5 | ? | 5 | William Carey Latham | 6 | ? | 6 | Grady Sexton | 7 | ? | 6 | William Sexton | 7 | ? | 6 | Virgil Todd | | 7 | 6 | Peter Latham | 7 | | 7 | Norman Brooks | 6 | | 7 | Gary Joe Loyd | 6 | | 7 | Robert Earl Todd | 6 | | 7 | Robert Curtiss Taylor | 6 | | 7 | David Lee Canaday | 6 | | 7 | Henry Middlebrook | | | | John D Middlebrook | 7 | | 7 | Larry Morris | | 6 | 7 | Hooper Brooks | 6 | | 7 | William Henry Brooks | | | | Lloyd Stone Brooks | 7 | | | Tim Brooks | | 7 | | John Joseph Graves | 7 | | | Jay Merritt Graves | 7 | |
That’s pretty much everyone on the tree EXCEPT there is no Warburton.
Sorry for the tone of this message.? I was expecting to find something to work with.? So I find myself at a loss, and no idea what to do, or where to go from here.? Does anyone know Douglas Winston Latham?? I’ll pay for his BigY (somehow) just to see if he connects on the chart more closely than Peter Latham does (no offense).
Jim
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
It came through okay for me. I could understand it.
Chris
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
And isn’t the yDNA67 test supposed to?thin out?matches at yDNA37, rather than to find more
Not necessarily. When you get to 67 STRs you are allowed more of a GD difference before the cutoff so someone who may have just missed the cutoff by 1 or 2 GDs at 37 STRs, if they don't pick up a lot more going to 67 STRs, will suddenly appear on your list. So your list could get bigger. But it will be more likely to be a match now (like more likely to at least be S6881 instead of somewhere else in the tree). Look at both Peter and Grady. Neither of them made the cutoff against you at 37 STRs but you got them on the list at 67.
You have all of our A11377 and below people on your list but you are missing a bunch of the A11376 people. They are too many GDs away from you guys so they don't show up. You don't have Cunliffe, Smith, and Goff to name a few.?
Where do you go from here? You can continue to play with Liptrot but I don't think it will work out close enough for you. Have you tried to contact Douglas Latham? I know sometimes people won't respond but sometimes they surprise you. You could take your STRs out to 111 to have a better idea when people come along if you really want to invest in more testing with them. Or you can go back to paper genealogy and see if you can find any distant cousins that will be willing to test. I feel your pain. I'm at a stuck point too but I'm hoping someday the right person will come along and be willing to do more testing.
Chris
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 3:25 PM, 'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
Like I said, I really expect someone on the A11377 branch of S6881 to be a “Match.”? And isn’t the yDNA67 test supposed to thin out matches at yDNA37, rather than to find more?
At ?yDNA67, Liptrap/Trapp matches include: GD-Liptrap | GD-Trapp | x | James Liptrap | 1 | 1 | George Trapp | x | 3 | Douglas W Latham | 4 | 4 | Roy Stanley Graves | 5 | 5 | William Carey Latham | 6 | 6 | Grady Sexton | 7 | 6 | William Sexton | 7 | 6 | Virgil Todd | | 7 | 6 | Peter Latham | 7 | 7 | Norman Brooks | 6 | 7 | Gary Joe Loyd | 6 | 7 | Robert Earl Todd | 6 | 7 | Robert Curtiss Taylor | 6 | 7 | David Lee Canaday | 6 | 7 | Henry Middlebrook | | | John D Middlebrook | 7 | 7 | Larry Morris | | 6 | 7 | Hooper Brooks | 6 | 7 | William Henry Brooks | | | Lloyd Stone Brooks | 7 | | Tim Brooks | | 7 | | John Joseph Graves | 7 | | Jay Merritt Graves | 7 |
That’s pretty much everyone on the tree EXCEPT there is no Warburton.
Sorry for the tone of this message.? I was expecting to find something to work with.? So I find myself at a loss, and no idea what to do, or where to go from here.? Does anyone know Douglas Winston Latham?? I’ll pay for his BigY (somehow) just to see if he connects on the chart more closely than Peter Latham does (no offense).
Jim
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
Well, that table didn’t come through well How can I send an excel table? ?
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Show quoted text
From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 5:25 PM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: RE: [R1b-S6881] Liptrap/Liptrot testing? ? Like I said, I really expect someone on the A11377 branch of S6881 to be a “Match.”? And isn’t the yDNA67 test supposed to thin out matches at yDNA37, rather than to find more?
At ?yDNA67, Liptrap/Trapp matches include: GD-Liptrap | GD-Trapp | ? | x | James Liptrap | 1 | ? | 1 | George Trapp | x | ? | 3 | Douglas W Latham | 4 | ? | 4 | Roy Stanley Graves | 5 | ? | 5 | William Carey Latham | 6 | ? | 6 | Grady Sexton | 7 | ? | 6 | William Sexton | 7 | ? | 6 | Virgil Todd | | 7 | 6 | Peter Latham | 7 | | 7 | Norman Brooks | 6 | | 7 | Gary Joe Loyd | 6 | | 7 | Robert Earl Todd | 6 | | 7 | Robert Curtiss Taylor | 6 | | 7 | David Lee Canaday | 6 | | 7 | Henry Middlebrook | | | | John D Middlebrook | 7 | | 7 | Larry Morris | | 6 | 7 | Hooper Brooks | 6 | | 7 | William Henry Brooks | | | | Lloyd Stone Brooks | 7 | | | Tim Brooks | | 7 | | John Joseph Graves | 7 | | | Jay Merritt Graves | 7 | |
That’s pretty much everyone on the tree EXCEPT there is no Warburton.
Sorry for the tone of this message.? I was expecting to find something to work with.? So I find myself at a loss, and no idea what to do, or where to go from here.? Does anyone know Douglas Winston Latham?? I’ll pay for his BigY (somehow) just to see if he connects on the chart more closely than Peter Latham does (no offense).
Jim
|
Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
Like I said, I really expect someone on the A11377 branch of S6881 to be a “Match.”? And isn’t the yDNA67 test supposed to thin out matches at yDNA37, rather than to find more?
At ?yDNA67, Liptrap/Trapp matches include: GD-Liptrap | GD-Trapp | x | James Liptrap | 1 | 1 | George Trapp | x | 3 | Douglas W Latham | 4 | 4 | Roy Stanley Graves | 5 | 5 | William Carey Latham | 6 | 6 | Grady Sexton | 7 | 6 | William Sexton | 7 | 6 | Virgil Todd | | 7 | 6 | Peter Latham | 7 | 7 | Norman Brooks | 6 | 7 | Gary Joe Loyd | 6 | 7 | Robert Earl Todd | 6 | 7 | Robert Curtiss Taylor | 6 | 7 | David Lee Canaday | 6 | 7 | Henry Middlebrook | | | John D Middlebrook | 7 | 7 | Larry Morris | | 6 | 7 | Hooper Brooks | 6 | 7 | William Henry Brooks | | | Lloyd Stone Brooks | 7 | | Tim Brooks | | 7 | | John Joseph Graves | 7 | | Jay Merritt Graves | 7 |
That’s pretty much everyone on the tree EXCEPT there is no Warburton.
Sorry for the tone of this message.? I was expecting to find something to work with.? So I find myself at a loss, and no idea what to do, or where to go from here.? Does anyone know Douglas Winston Latham?? I’ll pay for his BigY (somehow) just to see if he connects on the chart more closely than Peter Latham does (no offense).
Jim
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Re: Liptrap/Liptrot testing
Okay, I looked at his STR results against a bunch of people who are at S6881 and beyond. 594187 is pretty far off-modal on some of the STRs making?me think he's probably not what you want him to be. For our best bet to tell if he's S6881 you'd have to test out to 67 STRs but he's already so far away from you that I can't see that he is closely related to you at all (looks like he's probably?15 GD at 37 STRs from you). Depending on what you want to do with his kit the cheap way would be to just test S6881. I think he's going to be negative (but I'm just guessing). You would have no idea what he is then without further testing but I don't know if you really care if he isn't in your group. It's certainly up to you but it looks like a shot in the dark to me.
Chris
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 11:39 AM, 'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
Yes, 594187 that’s him ? ? ? Hi Jim, ? ?I'm sorry about the two from England. They are definitely the wrong group. Since they aren't even R1b they branched off from you in the way distant past and a long, long time before surnames so the connection is just a coincidence. As for the matches on your Ontario Liptrop, we do have a Taylor one step above S6881 but he's probably not closely related to your Ontario Liptrot. Is your Liptrot kit # 594187? I want to make sure I'm on the right person. Let me know. ? On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:15 PM, jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote: ? OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap ?
.
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
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From: R1b-S6881@... [mailto:R1b-S6881@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 12:15 PM
To: R1b-S6881@...
Subject: Re: [R1b-S6881] New file uploaded to R1b-S6881? ? Hi Jim, ? ?I'm sorry about the two from England. They are definitely the wrong group. Since they aren't even R1b they branched off from you in the way distant past and a long, long time before surnames so the connection is just a coincidence. As for the matches on your Ontario Liptrop, we do have a Taylor one step above S6881 but he's probably not closely related to your Ontario Liptrot. Is your Liptrot kit # 594187? I want to make sure I'm on the right person. Let me know. ? On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:15 PM, jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote: ? OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap ?
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
I really have no idea what the origin of your surname is, nor does most of the internet seem to know either. But since the Liptrap/Liptrot name is believed to have first been found in Lancashire, and we have a lot of S6881 people with ties to Lancashire that appear to predate surnames, I would have to say that these guys were around Lancashire before surnames were put in place. But that's just my opinion.?
As for the last time your group of Latham, Sexton, Graves, Liptrap, and Trapp shared a common ancestor it would also predate surnames since Iain's best guess for the date your ancestor with SNP FGC51240 was born was around 1031 AD. Even his 95% confidence range of 643 AD - 1353 AD for your shared SNP date probably predates surnames too. So the descendants of FGC51240 would have scattered through the countryside of Lancashire (or even further) before acquiring a surname when forced to do so. Add to it that depending on why your surname was chosen it could be possible that unrelated people started using it and you won't be too surprised when you find people from a very different haplogroup sharing your surname.
Chris?
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
Liptrap is supposed to have derived from Liptrot.? Sometime in the late 1800’s
someone looked at the similarity of our names and speculated that one came from
the other.? Liptrap is first found about
1572.? Liptrot as early as 1377.? And there was a family on the east side of
London in the early 1600’s whose name was written sometimes as Liptrot and
sometimes as Liptrap. So the "name researcher" postulated a connection.? No documentation.? No science.?
The idea that the name came from the German liebe “beloved” and trut
“true or trusted” is similarly based only on the sounds of the words.? The explanation that a German Protestant fled
to England about 1600 clearly does not explain the presence of a Thomas Liptrot
in Lancashire in 1409.
The London Family settled into Liptrap, and are well documented in parish registers.? I can find no connection to my Liptrap who appears in Buckinghamshire in 1679. And they have no living descendants named Liptrap.
A family in
Kidderminster, Worcestershire, was similar, about the same time, also eventually settled into Liptrap.? No known descendants named Liptrap?? But poorly represented in parish registers.? I can neither find nor rule out a connection to Buckinghamshire.
But perhaps, the two names were the product of a “convergence.”? Different sources, but ended up sounding similar.? I have no way to demonstrate this.? But the earliest form of the name in my "paper trail" in 1679 was spelled Leaptrapp.? "Leap" was an old English term for a kind of basket used to carry fish.? Trap meant the same as today.? So perhaps my ancestor caught fish in a basket???
But that still does not help find any of the generations missing between the appearance of Thomas Leaptrapp in 1679 and the newly found separation from Latham and Graves sometime between 1031 and 1526
Suggestions?
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Thank you Jim for the up-date. I look forward to learning the results of your Wigan Liptot tests.? Peter Latham.
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017, 18:21, "Chris Noble avalea3@... [R1b-S6881]"
?
Hi Jim, ? ?I'm sorry about the two from England. They are definitely the wrong group. Since they aren't even R1b they branched off from you in the way distant past and a long, long time before surnames so the connection is just a coincidence. As for the matches on your Ontario Liptrop, we do have a Taylor one step above S6881 but he's probably not closely related to your Ontario Liptrot. Is your Liptrot kit # 594187? I want to make sure I'm on the right person. Let me know.
Chris
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:15 PM, jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
|
Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Hi Jim, ? ?I'm sorry about the two from England. They are definitely the wrong group. Since they aren't even R1b they branched off from you in the way distant past and a long, long time before surnames so the connection is just a coincidence. As for the matches on your Ontario Liptrop, we do have a Taylor one step above S6881 but he's probably not closely related to your Ontario Liptrot. Is your Liptrot kit # 594187? I want to make sure I'm on the right person. Let me know.
Chris
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:15 PM, jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
|
Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Liptrap is supposed to have derived from Liptrot.? Sometime in the late 1800’s
someone looked at the similarity of our names and speculated that one came from
the other.? Liptrap is first found about
1572.? Liptrot as early as 1377.? And there was a family on the east side of
London in the early 1600’s whose name was written sometimes as Liptrot and
sometimes as Liptrap. So the "name researcher" postulated a connection.? No documentation.? No science.?
The idea that the name came from the German liebe “beloved” and trut
“true or trusted” is similarly based only on the sounds of the words.? The explanation that a German Protestant fled
to England about 1600 clearly does not explain the presence of a Thomas Liptrot
in Lancashire in 1409.
The London Family settled into Liptrap, and are well documented in parish registers.? I can find no connection to my Liptrap who appears in Buckinghamshire in 1679. And they have no living descendants named Liptrap.
A family in
Kidderminster, Worcestershire, was similar, about the same time, also eventually settled into Liptrap.? No known descendants named Liptrap?? But poorly represented in parish registers.? I can neither find nor rule out a connection to Buckinghamshire.
But perhaps, the two names were the product of a “convergence.”? Different sources, but ended up sounding similar.? I have no way to demonstrate this.? But the earliest form of the name in my "paper trail" in 1679 was spelled Leaptrapp.? "Leap" was an old English term for a kind of basket used to carry fish.? Trap meant the same as today.? So perhaps my ancestor caught fish in a basket???
But that still does not help find any of the generations missing between the appearance of Thomas Leaptrapp in 1679 and the newly found separation from Latham and Graves sometime between 1031 and 1526
Suggestions?
|
Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
OK - Results - but no help.
I found two Liptrots in Wigan, and submitted the yDNA-37 test.? The first results came back yesterday.? They matched ONLY each other - one step of 37 markers. (seriously - NO other matches!) The TIP Score indicates a common ancestor (reaches 90%) about 7 to 9 generations back - in the neighborhood of 1700. which would be a good scenario toward finding a relationship to Liptrap with BigY.
EXCEPT their haplotype is I-M253.? Scandinavian.? Either we are not related, or there was a 'Viking in the woodpile' sometime after Liptrap branched off but before their two branches diverged. ...And then the Viking died and left no other descendants....as did his brothers and cousins.? I guess.
This brings me back to the Liptrot from Ontario I tested last December.? At least he was R-M269.? That was also the yDNA-37 test.? His only 11 matches were all 4-step (of 37) matches to subjects named Taylor, Hoffner, Grevois,? Ingles, Donovan, Macklin, and Georgia.? Are any of these names matches to anyone in S6881? ? I was truly hoping some Liptrot would match to me.? Would it help to upgrade to yDNA-67?? Or to test directly for S6881?
Open to suggestions
Jim Liptrap
|
Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
The 1727 is Iain's estimate for you two of your Most Recent Common Ancestor, so I'd say that's pretty close to your known date of 1711. He's just estimating from SNP results without knowing your paper results.?
If by chart you mean the tree I just posted earlier today it won't show a split for you and George. It's just showing the last subclade that you two share. Until one of you matches up some of your singleton SNPs to someone more closely related to you it won't show that you two split, though the implication is there since you last shared an ancestor in 1711.
Good luck with your tests on your newly found subjects. I'll be excited to hear your results.
Chris
On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 5:14 PM, 'Jim Liptrap' jim@... [R1b-S6881] <R1b-S6881@...> wrote:
?
Success! – so far… ? The Liptrap/Trapp branch is supposed to have branched off from Liptrot around 1600 (I think earlier).? I went to Wigan last month, and found two Liptrots to test.? They do not know each other, apparently from different branches of the family there.? I am waiting for yDNA37 results.? I was able to get in on FTDNA’s Fathers Day Sale, barely.? If either of them comes back as a “match” I will send one (or both) of them through Big-Y – probably at the Christmas sale.
I tried this last December with a Liptrot from Ontario.? He came back not a match.? In fact, he matches no one in FTDNA database less than 4 steps distant (out of 37). ??If these two match him, instead, then I will consider the traditional derivation of the family disproven. It’s based on the similar sound of the name, anyway.? But my oldest proven ancestor was born about 1655, and I would have NO clue where to look before then, back to the ~1031 connection to Graves and Latham.
One of the new Liptrots has recently traced his family back to 1550 – on Ancestry, if that’s worth anything (no further comment).? But his family includes one generation in which the parents were married (in 1851) when the son was 2 years old.? We’ll see.? The other has not sent me his father’s name yet.? So I can’t plug into census records and trace back anywhere.
The new chart shows our branch as dated 1727 AD.? What does this actually mean? ??That is not a significant date in our family history.? Is this an estimate from the DNA?? Can we refine it?? ?George Trapp and I descend from Thomas Leaptrapp, born about 1655.? Our most recent common ancestor was Thomas Liptrap, born 1711.? George’s ancestor John was born 1744, my ancestor, John’s brother Isaac, was born 1750. ??But the chart does not split George’s branch from mine.? Is the 1727 an estimate of when this block of SNPs accumulated?? If it is, we have a paper-trail showing it was in or before 1711.? If it is an estimate of when the branch separated from A8050 Latham, then it was in or before 1655.
Thanks,
Jim Liptrap
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Re: New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Success! – so far… ? The Liptrap/Trapp branch is supposed to have branched off from Liptrot around 1600 (I think earlier).? I went to Wigan last month, and found two Liptrots to test. ?They do not know each other, apparently from different branches of the family there. ?I am waiting for yDNA37 results.? I was able to get in on FTDNA’s Fathers Day Sale, barely.? If either of them comes back as a “match” I will send one (or both) of them through Big-Y – probably at the Christmas sale.
I tried this last December with a Liptrot from Ontario.? He came back not a match.? In fact, he matches no one in FTDNA database less than 4 steps distant (out of 37). ??If these two match him, instead, then I will consider the traditional derivation of the family disproven. It’s based on the similar sound of the name, anyway. ?But my oldest proven ancestor was born about 1655, and I would have NO clue where to look before then, back to the ~1031 connection to Graves and Latham.
One of the new Liptrots has recently traced his family back to 1550 – on Ancestry, if that’s worth anything (no further comment).? But his family includes one generation in which the parents were married (in 1851) when the son was 2 years old.? We’ll see.? The other has not sent me his father’s name yet.? So I can’t plug into census records and trace back anywhere.
The new chart shows our branch as dated 1727 AD. ?What does this actually mean? ??That is not a significant date in our family history.? Is this an estimate from the DNA?? Can we refine it?? ?George Trapp and I descend from Thomas Leaptrapp, born about 1655.? Our most recent common ancestor was Thomas Liptrap, born 1711. ?George’s ancestor John was born 1744, my ancestor, John’s brother Isaac, was born 1750. ??But the chart does not split George’s branch from mine.? Is the 1727 an estimate of when this block of SNPs accumulated?? If it is, we have a paper-trail showing it was in or before 1711.? If it is an estimate of when the branch separated from A8050 Latham, then it was in or before 1655.
Thanks,
Jim Liptrap
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New file uploaded to R1b-S6881
Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the R1b-S6881 group. File : /S6881 Tree Yahoogroup 070917.xlsx Uploaded by : cerri37 <avalea3@...> Description : Updated with new colors from Y-DNA results page, U106 group You can access this file at the URL: To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: Regards, cerri37 <avalea3@...>
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