Yes, another ICC profile in QTR question....
After having successfully completed a manual profiling of a non-coated paper for inkjet with K3 inks, I thought I'd turn my attention to proofing the output in LRCC. I was reading through past messages on the topic and found one from Roy that I thought would answer my question. I made a text file with one row for every density value of a 21-step target printed with the QTR profile. I then dragged the file over the QTR-Create_ICC app, and it created what looked like an ICC profile. Turns out this grayscale profile is not even visible within LRCC. I then tried the same with the RGB version of the app. This time LRCC sees it, I can select it while soft proofing, but the preview on a calibrated display (LaCie 526) looks nothing like the printout! In fact it looks much closer to the soft proof using an XRite generated profile of the same paper, which prints out very poorly by the way..I did read the document "Embedding Photoshop Curves in ICCs" by Paul Roark, but I'm not sure this is what I need, and even less sure that I actually understand the document (sorry Paul, my limitations not yours). So, I'd like to create an ICC profile that could help in pre-visualizing the print (soft proofing) in LRCC. any ides are welcome...Thanks. oark
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Thought I would provide some feedback on my progress with creating a custom curve the old fashion way with QTR. I must say that only 2 weeks ago I thought this process was going to drive me crazy. After reading, and trying, it turns out to be quite doable. I have now created a custom neutral curve for Rives BFK 280gsm paper. I've been wanting to print on non-coated papers, and this is one I really like. The curve turned out amazing. It is virtually linear, without using Gray_Curve or Toner_Curve, only Linearize. I'll experiment with the added benefits of the additional curves. Yes, the print looked great. The print looks smooth throughout from highlights to shadows. Shadows are open and clear. Of course the d-max is not much to write home about (1.4), but I like softer prints so this is wonderful in my book. As a comparison, I profiled the same paper with my Colormunki Photo and CCStudio. I chose black and white profile, which printed out 3 full pages of patches, etc., etc. I then printed the file in LRCC with the XRite black and white profile, the print looked awful in comparison to the QTR one. A closer look with a step wedge showed the highlights were linear but the shadows were anything but. The print showed heavy/dense shadows with no contrast/definition. With my preferred coated papers (Epson Hot Press Natural, Canson Rag Photographic, Canson Arches 88), the XRite profiling works very well. Not with BFK, though. I think I'll try my next non-coated paper, Somerset Velvet Radiant White....?Thanks to all for your support along the way...
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Editing the existing curve
I created this curve a year ago, and overall it looks good in blacks, shadows, and midtones, but the highlights are a bit blown out. What is meant to be a subtle gradient of light gray in the highlights appears almost white on paper. Is there a way to make slight adjustments to the existing curve without doing it all over again?
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I remember it was a very tedious process that took me a whole weekend to figure out and complete, and I would like to avoid redoing the whole thing, as I almost completely forgot what exactly I did a year ago. So if I can simply adjust the existing curve to fix the highlights, that would save me a lot of time and frustration.
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Any advice on how to do this and save a weekend would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
some dmax data I have  Piezography UHD has much higher density than old MK inks. But Epson new PRO ink set has improve that, the difference becomes less significant. The absolute ISO visual density below: old K7 MK: 1.64 new Epson PRO: 1.73 Peizography UHD: 1.81 But when talking about ink characteristic, relative density should be considered. The relative density of Piezography UHD is 1.77. It's very close to the specification. I don't have Canon's old MK data on the same paper, but I will test the new MK (GP and PRO4600) next week. -- Kang-Wei Hsu download FREE preview£ºEffect of Fixatives on Inkjet Papers Preservation and Imaging Quality
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
"Pull that image into Photoshop and measure?the densities with the eyedropper tool.? The STS hits L 17; the Piezo hits L 18.? (Lower L number is darker"
I'm not sure what image you're referring to there.
Like Walker said, there is actual proof of the density differences. What I think is even more important is the physical reflective/oily look of the STS MK that shows up in the deep shadows of the print. The P-Series Epson MK and the Peizography UDMK doesn't have that problem.?
As for the actual usage and cost, unless you're running a whole page of pure black or really clipping your extreme shadows, you not going to print with THAT much UDMK. It just really helps with the 3-dimensionality in the deepest shadows. Plus, the added dmax means you don't need to apply as much of a perceptual rendering curve compared to older or less dense MK inks.?
All the best,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: New to QTR, paper profiles question
You might want to try my QTP-K3 software. It takes a lot of the pain out of the curve creation stuff, especially for people just starting out with QTR. It has built-in "starter curves" and toning presets made from neutral papers (Canson Edition Etching for MK and Canson Platine for PK)
It should be really similar to the Hahnem¨¹hle Photorag and then you can fine tune the color with the sliders as needed (it also gives the benefit of being able to see the color of the split tone blend of the different components before creating/installing the .quad files)
As for a tutorial, you can check out my support site dedicated support site
And I do have a video here of setting everything up and getting started here:?
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
Thanks Richard, super helpful. ?I needed a nights sleep to think "maybe it's the printer". :-)
Yeah, I noticed the first line strip at the very top of the sheet had issues...glad to know what caused that.
Cheers, Hank
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Be careful with that correction curve spreadsheet tool if you are making straight/positive inkjet prints!
I'm not sure where you were able to dig that up, but it is for negatives only. Using it for straight inkjet positives will give you an inverse correction for what you actually want.
It is essentially the same linearization lookup table function as what was in the OG QuadLin/QuadToneProfiler spreadsheets that I no longer support, but just spits out the correction curve as a list of inputs : outputs (rather than applying it to the quad file).
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
This is a problem with the actual printer and not QTR/PrintTool. The paper sensor on the P700/P900 is seeing the first few strips and thinking the paper is a different size than what is loaded and indexing/clipping the subsequent strips.
There is a super simple work-around that I just recommend across the board for all printers now (the large format Px000 will give a feed error and or even 3880s/P800s sometimes).
You need to rotate the image 180 degrees and put the (new) bottom edge of the image 1-inch from the bottom margin of the paper, and run the print for first component (you need to rotate it so that it can still be measured from white to black/left to right and have K component at the top of the page...) Then re-feed the paper so the clean white area goes in first.
Then you select and duplicate the image for bottom strip in the image list view (not in the print layout window to insure that it wont move when you select it and prevents messing up the placement and spacing for the next strip). Then arrange the duplicate image right above the previously printed one and add a 1/8 to 1/4-inch gap. Then select and remove the lower image and run the print for the next component, (and repeat for each of the remaining components).
Always doing it this way allows you to get all the strips on the same page (and in the correct order) and wont force you to waste paper/time trimming first 1-1/2 inches after each strip and taping them back together later... The reason I started doing this with the 3880s/P800 is that it also prevents the rubberized sheet feeder cam from scuffing the previously printed strip each time.?
One other thing I noticed in your print. You need to always leave a 1-inch from the top and bottom edge of the paper when using QTR with the P600/P800 and P700/900 so you don't get microbanding in the first inch (not exactly sure of the reason or exactly what it is, but the QTR dithering is different than Epson's, where that isn't a problem when using the native color driver and media settings)
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
I'm sure folks here are tired of my quick replies.
I'm now thinking I wrongly accused QTR. ?I put a clean sheet of paper in the P900, and no problem immediately after having a problem. ?I put in a sheet where I've printed a few test strips on the page, then it happens (and I seem to be able to replicate this). ?Maybe the P900 is trying to detect the edge of the paper and my prior prints messes up that measurement...not sure, I'm shooting in the dark here.
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
Ok, I'm loosing my head it seems. ?I waited over night, and tried to print again with no changes (just hit print again on PrintTool). ?And it's back to printing full width using the QTR printer.
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QTR not printing full width, intermittently
I¡¯ve had a weird QTR failure twice tonight. ?Suddenly QTR stops printing in the right side of the paper. ?This sheet shows multiple passes through the printer (to not waste paper). The first 4 times were fine, and then it suddenly stopped printing part of the right side of the page. ?This behavior repeats with subsequent prints, but stopping at a different place each time. ?I¡¯m pretty sure it¡¯s QTR as the same printer doesn¡¯t have this issue straight printing, it doesn¡¯t seem to be printtool as that prints fine not using QTR printer. ?Rebooted computer and printer and no better. ?Uninstall and reinstall qtr and everything worked again. ?Until it started again after about 9 prints. ?MacOS 14.3.1, Epson P900 USB connected, QTR 2.8.2.? 
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Dear Paul,
I find your statement to be misleading as UltraHD is clearly the winner in dMax over-all (which is generally the want here). Also, overly pigmented inks = nozzle clogs in the long run. Much better to use a stronger base pigment with more carrier liquid.
And in my measurements of UltraHD on Arches 88 I measured L* of 11.89.
If you are going for cheapness, stay with OEM IMO. Less hassle than third party. But if you are going to go third party and deal with the hassle, UltraHD is clearly what you should put in there . . .
-Walker
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On Mar 4, 2024, at 10:46?AM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Pull that image into Photoshop and measure?the densities with the eyedropper tool.? The STS hits L 17; the Piezo hits L 18.? (Lower L number is darker.)? The main difference is that the STS hits its dmax much earlier.? (And that translates into even lower MK ink costs.)??
Paul On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 7:10?AM Richard Boutwell < richard@...> wrote: I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago:
Hope that helps,?Richard Boutwell ?
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Got it! It was in front if my face and I didn't see it. Richard's spreadsheet "BWMASTERY-21-step-QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool-for-Digital-Negatives" has a column of data titled Correction Curve to the left of the column Digital Negatives. These are the values to use inside GRAY_CURVE (along with the respective step %) that make the correction for print to positive. It works out perfectly. I'm ready to move on with the various toning profiles now that I know how to use both Gray-Curve (Toner_Curve) and Linearize. Thanks to all for the help along the way...
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New to QTR, paper profiles question
Hello,
As Epson ABW gives me warm tint in highlights and cool tint in shadows I decided to try QTR.
I basically stopped printing since the tints are driving me crazy and I only do B&W (well, now mostly in darkroom).
Please correct me if I am wrong however I feel like the necessary step would be to buy (I have nowhere to rent) printer/paper calibration device.
Is it possible to use somebody else's QTR profile (I use Hahnemuele Photo RAg 308/500, HM Ulrasmooth mostly) for the time being or do I need to create my own??
I used?UCmk-HMPRduo-neutral just to try however, the print is promising in terms of neutrality however very washed out and less contrasty compared to ABW print. ABW creates prints which are almost 1:1 (in terms of contrast) to what I see on monitor however have these color tints.
It's clear I am at the beginning of steep learning curve and understand I need to invest time however I am confused as to how proceed and wasn't very successful in finding accessible tutorial ... I am more comfortable in my darkroom :)
Woul
Petr?
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Pull that image into Photoshop and measure?the densities with the eyedropper tool.? The STS hits L 17; the Piezo hits L 18.? (Lower L number is darker.)? The main difference is that the STS hits its dmax much earlier.? (And that translates into even lower MK ink costs.)??
Paul
On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 7:10?AM Richard Boutwell < richard@...> wrote: I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago:
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago: Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
http://www.richardboutwell.com/
http://www.bwmastery.com/
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
That's what I use in my Piezo PRO set up since I still had some Epson MK left. I just made profiles with it.
Hi,
New to the forum. I would normally post this over on the Piezography forum but it's down at the moment and I imagine plenty of you over here will have experience of piezography. Plus I'd thought about dipping my toe in these here waters anyway :)
Has anyone ever tried using official Epson matte black in place of Piezography ultra HD matte black ink? While still using the other Piezography dark, medium and light gray inks, as well as the PIezography Pro linearisation tools.
Roughly speaking, would this work? I envisage some hit to dmax, but that's fine, this is for printing hand made zines and books and so dmax isn't as much a concern as it is for when I make wall prints on fancier papers.
I have a "Piezography Pro" setup on a 3880 and a R3000. I am only using 7 channels on each as I never print gloss/photo black, so my thinking is I would just use one of the two spare channels on each printer for an Epson matte black cartridge. Keeping the Piezography ultra HD matte black cartridge in place for when I make prints.
Why would I do this you ask? Until investing in my piezography setup I had no idea quite how unstable Piezography matte black can be on the surface of the paper compared to Epson matte black. On many papers, the mearest light touch can easily smudge the Piezography matte black ink. Not such a problem for wall prints, but definitely an issue for zines and books. For my first book made using piezography inks () I got around this by using a spray fixative (I found Permajet PermaSeal the best) and really reducing the ink limit as much as possible while still getting a satisfactory dmax. However spraying each page was loooong, not to mention smelly. When printing on the same papers using standard Epson inks the result is vastly more stable to touch.
I do have a P600 still running Epson inks, which I use for colour work, however I predominantly work in BW and I want to keep the Piezography workflow which I have found so precise and efficient for trialling and optimising papers that I may use in my books and zines, not to mention the toning, which I find lifts the end result above what I have ever been able to achieve with Epson inks.
Cheers,
Chris.
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
On Sun, Mar 3, 2024 at 11:46?AM Chris Jack < itsmrjack@...> wrote: ...
How stable is the STS ink to touch?
In my view, no print is totally immune?to damage by touching.? I put most of my matte prints behind glass.? That said, a matte canvas print has been on display at a friend's house for years without problems.? What I prefer, however, is a sprayed satin finish, un-glazed. ? And are you saying the STS formulation is similar or the same as Epson matt black?
It's close, but I have not compared them.? For the Arches printing I did, I needed 2 MK positions, regardless of source.
Paul
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Oh, you¡¯re completely correct. It¡¯s a curve that you¡¯d use to linearize your densities. Effectively the inverse curve.? E
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On Mar 3, 2024, at 8:06?PM, luigi@... wrote:
?OK this makes sense to me. However, where do I get expected densities? When I look at the output (GRAY_CURVE) from "BWMASTERY-21-step-QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool-for-Digital-Negatives", it looks like something different is going on. The first value of the pair is as you suggest the excepted value taken from the step tablet (0 to 100 in steps of 5). The second number is something altogether different. it is neither the expected nor the measured, but some correction factor. If I make a plot of the output pairs from the excel sheet, it looks like a mirror image of the original measured densities. Presumably, when applied this correction factor moves the measured densities onto the ideal straight line between 0;0 and 100;100. This sheet is designed to output a GRAY_CURVE for negatives, the principle should be the same if the curve is for a positive print to paper...I'm just not sure what to make of this correction factor...
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Kang-Wei Hsu
Richard Boutwell