开云体育

ctrl + shift + ? for shortcuts
© 2025 开云体育

Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte

 

Hi,

New to the forum. I would normally post this over on the Piezography forum but it's down at the moment and I imagine plenty of you over here will have experience of piezography. Plus I'd thought about dipping my toe in these here waters anyway :)

Has anyone ever tried using official Epson matte black in place of Piezography ultra HD matte black ink? While still using the other Piezography dark, medium and light gray inks, as well as the PIezography Pro linearisation tools.

Roughly speaking, would this work? I envisage some hit to dmax, but that's fine, this is for printing hand made zines and books and so dmax isn't as much a concern as it is for when I make wall prints on fancier papers.

I have a "Piezography Pro" setup on a 3880 and a R3000. I am only using 7 channels on each as I never print gloss/photo black, so my thinking is I would just use one of the two spare channels on each printer for an Epson matte black cartridge. Keeping the Piezography ultra HD matte black cartridge in place for when I make prints.

Why would I do this you ask? Until investing in my piezography setup I had no idea quite how unstable Piezography matte black can be on the surface of the paper compared to Epson matte black. On many papers, the mearest light touch can easily smudge the Piezography matte black ink. Not such a problem for wall prints, but definitely an issue for zines and books. For my first book made using piezography inks () I got around this by using a spray fixative (I found Permajet PermaSeal the best) and really reducing the ink limit as much as possible while still getting a satisfactory dmax. However spraying each page was loooong, not to mention smelly. When printing on the same papers using standard Epson inks the result is vastly more stable to touch.

I do have a P600 still running Epson inks, which I use for colour work, however I predominantly work in BW and I want to keep the Piezography workflow which I have found so precise and efficient for trialling and optimising papers that I may use in my books and zines, not to mention the toning, which I find lifts the end result above what I have ever been able to achieve with Epson inks.

Cheers,
Chris.


Re: New Epson P5370 Support

 

Why would I rely on Epson to answer a question regarding QTR?


Re: New Epson P5370 Support

 

You should direct your question to Epson.


On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 7:24?PM David Pitcher <pitcherd1@...> wrote:
Will the latest Epson 17" P5370 be supported or can be treated as a P900? Reading Epson marketing material and other sources the P5370 has the same ink channels and printhead.


New Epson P5370 Support

 

Will the latest Epson 17" P5370 be supported or can be treated as a P900? Reading Epson marketing material and other sources the P5370 has the same ink channels and printhead.


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

Thanks for this Richard. I have also read most of the documentation you have available, and watched your videos, and can appreciate the important advances that your apps provide at the very least to the usability of the system. The process of understanding something in detail often produces moments of uncertainty and confusion. This is the part I like best about learning! I've just been sent a copy of Diallo's description of the system and am finding it answers most of my questions. In the end, I'll probably end up buying your apps in any case. Best....


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

All of these questions are why I initially started writing my huge "How to QTR" book back in 2014. I realized all the ways where the ink descriptor file and curve creation steps could be improved and done much more effeciently. That is what got me started making a few spreadsheet-based tools, and then eventually pushed me learn how to develop real software for my advanced curve creation methods. Yes, you can plod along and read 15 years worth of QTR groups posts where a these questions have been answered dozens of times, and it will?maybe get you where you want to be.?

I'll try to find some old drafts of the curve creation steps, but I don't want to see people waste their time on something that ultimately gives unsatisfactory results (but I completely understand the desire to know exactly how something works and be able do it themselves (which is also why I learned to develop my own software)). But honestly, this traditional method, while it was good when it was the only option, is now totally obsolete. The profiles and tools in my K3 app are miles ahead of even the best ones made with the ink descriptor file.

You can download a trial version or the QTP-Pro and QTP-K3 aps to see how they work, but just wont be able to save the quad curevs (just dismiss the activation screen when it comes up to use in demo mode)?

If you DO want to go through the steps of making the ink separation image at different ink limits, at least use my free Target Generator app so you can create a single ink separation image when setting the limits for each channel indipendently (like K:72, LK: LLK: 64 when calculating the cross over points by hand and so you don't have to print 2-3 separate images with the calibration mode limit slider set differently each time)?

Also, it might be last minute, but if you can get yourself to philadelphia this weekend, I am teaching my 2-day QTR workshop and there is still one spot open.

All the best,?
Richard Boutwell

https://www.richardboutwell.com



Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

Thanks again Eben, this is very helpful indeed. I'll keep plodding along....


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

开云体育

Here’s how I (used to) use it when I was hand-writing profiles. This is based on old, perhaps incorrect, knowledge, so if I’ve got it wrong (a) forgive me, and (b) feel free to set me straight.


DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=100 - this fills in, for example, the value for LIMIT_C if I neglect to enter a LIMIT_C value. So it’s just a default, to be used if needed.
LIMIT_K=50 (or whatever) - the value in your Ink Separation page where K maxes out its density and doesn’t pool.
N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=3 (if you have a printer with black, gray, and light gray inks)
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_INK_3=LLK
The GRAY_VAL_XX values are the “crossover” points between the different inks. They are relative to 100%, that is, to full density of the black ink.
So I might use?
GRAY_VAL_2=45
which means something like the following

I printed a separation page with an overall ink limit of, say, 50, based on my K limit. ?Then I should be using an ink limit for these following steps of 50. Easy way
to do that is use DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=50, of course.?

Given that printout, I found that the LK value reached its maximum at some square - we’ll say the 85% square. I go look at the K chart and find that the density of K at this value - 45 - is the same as my LK was at 85.?
It gets one level more indirect when we get to GRAY_VAL_3. It should be the crossover point between LK and LLK, but the value should be expressed in terms of
the full K curve. So let’s say the densest LLK is at 70. And suppose further that that is the same density as LK was at 30. The value we want to enter for GRAY_VAL_3 is not 30, but rather is 30% of the crossover point for LK, or 30% * 45, or 13.5 (13 to the nearest integer).

Using other INK_LIMIT’s is a way to scale the ink densities. For instance, if you use the COPY_CURVE keywords (say, for toning curves) you typically add a small percentage of the toning inks by copying the dense, black curves and scaling them down via setting a smaller INK_LIMIT.?


Somewhere there’s probably a really good tutorial on this.?




On Feb 21, 2024, at 3:07 PM, luigi@... wrote:

Thanks for your reply Eben. Regarding bwmastery, I have read his documentation too. Not sure I want to spend more money, as QTR should be be able to get me where I want to be (maybe not if I don't get any help with this though). I'm trying to understand this process step by step. The documentation I've read is patchy, inconsistent, and often confusing to me. So, baby steps for me...

Step 1: Print ink separation file with PrintTool and no color management on my preferred paper with K3 inks in my P-800
Step 2: Assess patches for the darkest one with no pooling and no noticeable increase in density to the next darkest patch. I used my densitometer for this one and found that 65% for the K step wedge was it.

Is this good so far?

Problems/questions: The documentation appears to assume that the limit will be the same for each of the ink colors, but it's not. Is the 65% value (as established above) what I use for the? DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT variable in the ink descriptor file? Makes sense that "The other limits are effectively scaling factors for how much ink is laid down for each channel." Are these individual ink limits (LIMIT_C, LIMIT_M, etc.) relative to 100% or relative to the value of DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT? I'm not sure the relation between DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT and any individual LIMIT_X, for example.

Luigi


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

Thanks Clay!? I'll have a look....


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

开云体育

If you are determined to use the ink descriptor file approach, I strongly recommend you download the pdf here:



That Dmitry Chainick has put together. It will help you understand all the parameters at play in creating an inking profile from a text-based descriptor file.

Clay

On Feb 21, 2024, at 3:07?PM, luigi@... wrote:

Thanks for your reply Eben. Regarding bwmastery, I have read his documentation too. Not sure I want to spend more money, as QTR should be be able to get me where I want to be (maybe not if I don't get any help with this though). I'm trying to understand this process step by step. The documentation I've read is patchy, inconsistent, and often confusing to me. So, baby steps for me...

Step 1: Print ink separation file with PrintTool and no color management on my preferred paper with K3 inks in my P-800
Step 2: Assess patches for the darkest one with no pooling and no noticeable increase in density to the next darkest patch. I used my densitometer for this one and found that 65% for the K step wedge was it.

Is this good so far?

Problems/questions: The documentation appears to assume that the limit will be the same for each of the ink colors, but it's not. Is the 65% value (as established above) what I use for the? DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT variable in the ink descriptor file? Makes sense that "The other limits are effectively scaling factors for how much ink is laid down for each channel." Are these individual ink limits (LIMIT_C, LIMIT_M, etc.) relative to 100% or relative to the value of DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT? I'm not sure the relation between DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT and any individual LIMIT_X, for example.

Luigi


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

Thanks for your reply Eben. Regarding bwmastery, I have read his documentation too. Not sure I want to spend more money, as QTR should be be able to get me where I want to be (maybe not if I don't get any help with this though). I'm trying to understand this process step by step. The documentation I've read is patchy, inconsistent, and often confusing to me. So, baby steps for me...

Step 1: Print ink separation file with PrintTool and no color management on my preferred paper with K3 inks in my P-800
Step 2: Assess patches for the darkest one with no pooling and no noticeable increase in density to the next darkest patch. I used my densitometer for this one and found that 65% for the K step wedge was it.

Is this good so far?

Problems/questions: The documentation appears to assume that the limit will be the same for each of the ink colors, but it's not. Is the 65% value (as established above) what I use for the? DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT variable in the ink descriptor file? Makes sense that "The other limits are effectively scaling factors for how much ink is laid down for each channel." Are these individual ink limits (LIMIT_C, LIMIT_M, etc.) relative to 100% or relative to the value of DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT? I'm not sure the relation between DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT and any individual LIMIT_X, for example.

Luigi


Re: Just starting out with QTR

 

开云体育

By far the easiest route to doing this is the software by Richard Boutwell at bwmastery.com. He also has a good guide to the descriptor file.?

The K limit is the important one; it determines the amount of ink for the darkest blacks. The other inks are either used as additions to this (as in, add a little yellow to your black) or partitions (as in, switch from black to grey as the image gets lighter).?
The DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT is for what happens if you omit a limit for a used channel. The other limits are effectively scaling factors for how much ink is laid down for each channel.?

Does that help?
E

On Feb 20, 2024, at 11:21?PM, luigi@... wrote:

?Recently, I've become interested in inkjet printing on non-coated papers and my research led back to QTR. I use the Mac version with an Epson P-800, and the OEM inkset. I've read everything I could find, including various sources on making Digital Negatives, as well as all the documentation that comes with the app. I thought best to try making one curve as practice and see where it takes me. I managed to print the ink separation file (8 ink) using Print Tool. This is where I got stuck! It appears I need to assess the step patches and decide on the maximum ink necessary to completely cover the paper. I'm assuming this means the greatest reflection density. Problem is this is different for each of the inks. Both visually, and with a densitometer, the inks reach max density at different places. So, the first few questions:

1) When deciding on the calibration ink limit, do I consider the K step-wedge only?
2) I know that eventually I'll have to work with the ink descriptor files so I began to try to understand their structure and syntax. Does the?DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT refer to the value of K determined from the first print of the Ink pattern page?
3) Where do the values of the other ink limits come from? LIMIT_C, LIMIT_M, etc.
4) If the answer to question 2 above is YES, why would the DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=50, but LIMIT_K=45 (or anything other than 50 for that matter)?
5) Does anyone have a copy of?"QTR Workflow" by Amadou Diallo that they are willing to share?

I appreciate any help in pushing me alone here.


Just starting out with QTR

 

Recently, I've become interested in inkjet printing on non-coated papers and my research led back to QTR. I use the Mac version with an Epson P-800, and the OEM inkset. I've read everything I could find, including various sources on making Digital Negatives, as well as all the documentation that comes with the app. I thought best to try making one curve as practice and see where it takes me. I managed to print the ink separation file (8 ink) using Print Tool. This is where I got stuck! It appears I need to assess the step patches and decide on the maximum ink necessary to completely cover the paper. I'm assuming this means the greatest reflection density. Problem is this is different for each of the inks. Both visually, and with a densitometer, the inks reach max density at different places. So, the first few questions:

1) When deciding on the calibration ink limit, do I consider the K step-wedge only?
2) I know that eventually I'll have to work with the ink descriptor files so I began to try to understand their structure and syntax. Does the?DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT refer to the value of K determined from the first print of the Ink pattern page?
3) Where do the values of the other ink limits come from? LIMIT_C, LIMIT_M, etc.
4) If the answer to question 2 above is YES, why would the DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=50, but LIMIT_K=45 (or anything other than 50 for that matter)?
5) Does anyone have a copy of?"QTR Workflow" by Amadou Diallo that they are willing to share?

I appreciate any help in pushing me alone here.


Re: Finally an answer

 

Thanks for sharing this! I’ll be waiting for this to happen in our lab. And now I’ll be ready!

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 5:10?PM Christina Z. Anderson <christinazanderson@...> wrote:

Dear List,

This may be useful to only a few of you because most of you don’t work on School lab printers as I do which have tightened security and admin permission set up. I do have admin permission so that is not the problem. We also use Jamf I think it is.

If you remember our Print-Tool got an error message saying access denied to profiles but it would still print a negative albeit with no profile assigned. Way too contrasty to use. Because it still printed, students had no idea there was a problem.

You all gave me lots of helpful advice and I tried Every. Single. Solution. Still the no access cropped up intermittently like it got fixed and then it didn’t. Mind you, we are currently doing palladium so this was giving me a heart attack.

Today in lab I got it figured out. The quads themselves in ~QTR/quadtone had “no access.” However, I went to the file folder of all my quads and all of them were set to Read Only, not “no access.” But when I installed them in QuadP900 on the School computers with the latest security updates, the quads switched to no access without a warning. Sounds unbelievable but I checked and I kid you not.

The reason the problem was intermittent is some of the quads were installed BEFORE the latest security update so they worked/were accessible. It was the new profiles that didn’t.
So here is the fix, should you be so unlucky: select all your quads, right/control click on them and Get Summary Info. Then click on the lock and change Everyone to Read Only. The profiles are now accessible by Print-Tool.

You may have to do that profile by profile but I was able to do groups of them at a time that way (we’re talking 49x3x2 profiles so grouping them was a lifesaver). Then as a last measure, select all profiles, right/control click to Get Info (not Get Summary Info) ?and make sure Read Only shows on every. Single. One.

This happened after Apple’s latest security update so my guess is someone will come across this in the near future aside from just me.

I’ve been working solidly with QTR for five years and this was a first.

Now if I could just figure out how to magically fix my P900 print head in my office that just broke. Bad week.

Chris


A screenshot of a computer

Description automatically generated

?

Christina Z. Anderson
Professor of Photography

School of Film & Photography (SFP)
Montana State University (MSU)
Series Editor:


Finally an answer

 

开云体育

Dear List,

This may be useful to only a few of you because most of you don’t work on School lab printers as I do which have tightened security and admin permission set up. I do have admin permission so that is not the problem. We also use Jamf I think it is.

If you remember our Print-Tool got an error message saying access denied to profiles but it would still print a negative albeit with no profile assigned. Way too contrasty to use. Because it still printed, students had no idea there was a problem.

You all gave me lots of helpful advice and I tried Every. Single. Solution. Still the no access cropped up intermittently like it got fixed and then it didn’t. Mind you, we are currently doing palladium so this was giving me a heart attack.

Today in lab I got it figured out. The quads themselves in ~QTR/quadtone had “no access.” However, I went to the file folder of all my quads and all of them were set to Read Only, not “no access.” But when I installed them in QuadP900 on the School computers with the latest security updates, the quads switched to no access without a warning. Sounds unbelievable but I checked and I kid you not.

The reason the problem was intermittent is some of the quads were installed BEFORE the latest security update so they worked/were accessible. It was the new profiles that didn’t.
So here is the fix, should you be so unlucky: select all your quads, right/control click on them and Get Summary Info. Then click on the lock and change Everyone to Read Only. The profiles are now accessible by Print-Tool.

You may have to do that profile by profile but I was able to do groups of them at a time that way (we’re talking 49x3x2 profiles so grouping them was a lifesaver). Then as a last measure, select all profiles, right/control click to Get Info (not Get Summary Info) ?and make sure Read Only shows on every. Single. One.

This happened after Apple’s latest security update so my guess is someone will come across this in the near future aside from just me.

I’ve been working solidly with QTR for five years and this was a first.

Now if I could just figure out how to magically fix my P900 print head in my office that just broke. Bad week.

Chris


A screenshot of a computer

Description automatically generated

?

Christina Z. Anderson
Professor of Photography

School of Film & Photography (SFP)
Montana State University (MSU)
Series Editor:


Re: Ink Limit Target for Epson P-900

 

V/MK channel settings are the same with OR/GR inks as the QTR changelog says. That would be

Violet: R255 / B127
MK: R255/ B191
The G channel is ink quantity. 0 for 0%, 255 for 100%.

--
Kang-Wei Hsu


download FREE preview
Effect of Fixatives on Inkjet Papers Preservation and Imaging Quality


Ink Limit Target for Epson P-900

 

开云体育

To all;
? It turns out that the mk-limit target for setting the ink limit is not accurate for the P-900.? The attached file is from Clay Harmon who has given permission to share it here:? See the attachment.? It is an 8-bit tif file.

Bob

Robert Hartung
Bettendorf, IA USA

RobertHartungPhoto.com




On 2/8/24 12:37, Tim McCoy wrote:

I am getting an early start to Houston FotoFest 2024 with my exhibition,?Beyond My Lens, at the Jung Center Gallery, 5200 Montrose Blvd., Houston, TX 77006, February 17 - March 29. ?I will be giving a talk at the Opening Reception 5-7 pm on Saturday, February 17. ?Parking is available that evening in the adjacent Museum of Fine Arts Houston parking lot. I hope those of you in the Houston area can come. If you will be visiting later, normal Gallery hours are?Mon - Thurs 10am-6pm; Fri. 10am-4pm; Sat. 12pm-4pm
?
The exhibition will include prints from my albumen portfolio (Long, Long Journey to the Sea), palladium portfolio (Sanctuary), and polymer photogravure portfolio (Tongues Turned to Stone). I will also have 32x40 digital images printed with Piezography inks on metallic paper from my portfolio,?The Watercourse Way.?

I used QTR for the alternative processes transparencies as well as for the Piezography prints.

Hope to see some of you there!

Tim McCoy





P900_mK_Limit_test-flat.tif


Re: Houston FotoFest exhibit and QTR

 

开云体育

Congratulations Tim!

Warmest regards
-Walker


On Feb 8, 2024, at 1:37?PM, Tim McCoy <tim@...> wrote:

I am getting an early start to Houston FotoFest 2024 with my exhibition,?Beyond My Lens, at the Jung Center Gallery, 5200 Montrose Blvd., Houston, TX 77006, February 17 - March 29. ?I will be giving a talk at the Opening Reception 5-7 pm on Saturday, February 17. ?Parking is available that evening in the adjacent Museum of Fine Arts Houston parking lot. I hope those of you in the Houston area can come. If you will be visiting later, normal Gallery hours are?Mon - Thurs 10am-6pm; Fri. 10am-4pm; Sat. 12pm-4pm
?
The exhibition will include prints from my albumen portfolio (Long, Long Journey to the Sea), palladium portfolio (Sanctuary), and polymer photogravure portfolio (Tongues Turned to Stone). I will also have 32x40 digital images printed with Piezography inks on metallic paper from my portfolio,?The Watercourse Way.?

I used QTR for the alternative processes transparencies as well as for the Piezography prints.

Hope to see some of you there!

Tim McCoy






Houston FotoFest exhibit and QTR

 

I am getting an early start to Houston FotoFest 2024 with my exhibition,?Beyond My Lens, at the Jung Center Gallery, 5200 Montrose Blvd., Houston, TX 77006, February 17 - March 29. ?I will be giving a talk at the Opening Reception 5-7 pm on Saturday, February 17. ?Parking is available that evening in the adjacent Museum of Fine Arts Houston parking lot. I hope those of you in the Houston area can come. If you will be visiting later, normal Gallery hours are?Mon - Thurs 10am-6pm; Fri. 10am-4pm; Sat. 12pm-4pm
?
The exhibition will include prints from my albumen portfolio (Long, Long Journey to the Sea), palladium portfolio (Sanctuary), and polymer photogravure portfolio (Tongues Turned to Stone). I will also have 32x40 digital images printed with Piezography inks on metallic paper from my portfolio,?The Watercourse Way.?

I used QTR for the alternative processes transparencies as well as for the Piezography prints.

Hope to see some of you there!

Tim McCoy





Re: Any prospect of QTR support for new P7570/9570

 

Hi everyone - I don't have either of these Epsons at the moment. Sorry! If I hear of anyone else in the SF Bay Area I'll let you know.?