Workflow for QuadTone RIP and PC users making Digital Negatives
Hello,? I have been using my Epson 3800 to produce digital negatives using fairly conventional lookup table means.? I wish to step up my digital negative game and use QuadTone RIP instead, but I'm having trouble getting an idea of what the actual workflow is, and how to proceed.? What I am not wanting is "just buy a Mac" comments.? I would like to figure this out on my PC, partly as a learning exercise. I purchased a copy of the book, "Kallitype, VanDyke Brown, and Argyrotype", which has some information about using a PC to create digital negatives, but it's disorganized, incomplete, and sends you in circles with examples that are screenshots with no values entered in them.? So, I'm a bit stuck. From what I understand, I need to do the following:
- Create a .qidf ink definition file for my printer and then
- Linearize the curve(s) so that when I print negative files, they are printed as usable negatives
I'm working on step #1. Here's where I'm at:
- I have installed QuadTone RIP
- I have selected my printer (Epson 3800)
- I printed the Calibration Mode image on Pictorico TPS100
- I made a cyanotype (my preferred process) of the Calibration Mode transparency to identify what inks block UV best.
What I don't know is how to proceed from here.? I don't know how to interpret the cyanotype of the Calibration Mode transparency into values for Density and Limit that I enter into the Curve Creation tool. I have a Datacolor SpyderPrint spectrocolorimeter that I've used in the past to create Photoshop lookup tables, and I hope I can use it for these purposes.? From what I can glean from the book I mentioned, here are the steps:
- For each ink I wish to use, find the percentage square that is my DMax - the darkest patch for each ink
- For each ink I wish to use, halve the percent under the patch that is DMax for that ink
- Put the values somewhere
What I don't know is, where do I enter them?? Are they the Density or the limit values?? If they're Density, how do I determine the limit values?? If they're Limit values, how do I determine the Density values? I've included a poor quality cell-phone picture of the print made from the Calibration Mode transparency I printed (my flatbed scanner is not working well).? It looks like I should be using Black (PK in my case), Yellow, Light Black (LK) and then Probably Light Light Black (LLK) and maybe Cyan inks, omitting the light cyan, light magenta, and magenta inks.?  Am I on the right track?? If you are willing to provide advice, correction, or further guidance I'd be very grateful.
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
You are welcome!
Warmest regards -Walker
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On Jul 8, 2024, at 1:44?PM, gracianapiaggio via groups.io <gracianapiaggio@...> wrote:
Hi Walker, ?
I wanted to thank you for your suggestion regarding the sharpie and the CMY cgats and workflow files. I followed your instructions and I¡¯m happy to report that it worked! I was able to read the target successfully. ?
Thank you so much for your help and your time. I really appreciate it! ?
Kind regards, Graciana
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Hi Walker,
?
I wanted to thank you for your suggestion regarding the sharpie and the CMY cgats and workflow files. I followed your instructions and I¡¯m happy to report that it worked! I was able to read the target successfully.
?
Thank you so much for your help and your time. I really appreciate it!
?
Kind regards,
Graciana
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Graciana,?
I¡¯ve been thinking about this with a little time on my hands this weekend in Chicago.
i1Profiler does actually require a ¡°color¡± to be close in nature to the base RGB color of the target. So it¡¯s too far out of spec from what i1Profiler is requiring (it¡¯s requiring monochrome bw).
What you will need to do is simulate the color and then also sharpie the left and right lines black on the printed gum itself.?
I¡¯ve done this recently when building CcMmKkkk environments that required me to measure pure color 128x5 targets. It showed the same error and I got around it as shown below.
I¡¯ve included CMY cgats and workflow files. It¡¯s a pure magenta one, pure cyan, pure yellow. Sharpie the left and right thin lines of our color prints black before reading. Use the Cyan one to read cyan/blue targets, the magenta one to read red/magenta and the yellow one to read things on the yellow spectrum. ??
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On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:19?PM, gracianapiaggio via groups.io <gracianapiaggio@...> wrote:
Hi Jon,
Thank you for your patience and assistance.
Today, I printed a new negative and exposed it with both cyanotype and gum bichromate processes using the same negative. The cyanotype target reads perfectly with the i1 Profiler, but the gum bichromate target still gives me the same error: "Error: Reference colors do not match measured values. Make sure you are scanning row 1 and try again."
Additionally, I measured a single row of 1x21 patches in gum bichromate magenta, and it reads perfectly.
Attached are images of both targets and screenshots of the error message.?
My scanner is currently broken, but as soon as I can get it fixed, I will send you the target to you for measuring. I greatly appreciate your support and willingness to help.
Thank you once again for your help. I greatly appreciate your support.
Kindly, ?
Graciana
<_DSC6711.jpg><_DSC6710.jpg><Screenshot 2024-07-07 at 12.03.01.png><Screenshot 2024-07-07 at 12.01.08.png><PiezoDN_CDR_800u_Correction3.tif>
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Quadtone Profiler Pro - crash on Ink Sep file
I am starting to build a custom profile for a new (to me) paper.? In trying to load the 4x21 warm tone ink separation measurement file the program crashes.? the cool tone file loads with no issue.? i am attaching the crash report and the measurement file.? What I am doing wrong????
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Hi Jon,
Thank you for your patience and assistance.
Today, I printed a new negative and exposed it with both cyanotype and gum bichromate processes using the same negative. The cyanotype target reads perfectly with the i1 Profiler, but the gum bichromate target still gives me the same error: "Error: Reference colors do not match measured values. Make sure you are scanning row 1 and try again."
Additionally, I measured a single row of 1x21 patches in gum bichromate magenta, and it reads perfectly.
Attached are images of both targets and screenshots of the error message.?
My scanner is currently broken, but as soon as I can get it fixed, I will send you the target to you for measuring. I greatly appreciate your support and willingness to help.
Thank you once again for your help. I greatly appreciate your support.
Kindly, ?
Graciana
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Ugh! I do not think it is the gum per se...? but have you tried with cyan? Cyan is darker by default and may be closer to the expectations of the i1 profiler. From what I am understanding you are saying - it appears to be color dependent in your case...?
Graciana, if you would like, send the same target to me for measuring. If I am successful you may have an out of spec instrument...? you never know... could be hardware related.
You know where to find me! :)
Kindest regards,
Jon
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Re: DTP on P700 - Printer auto selecting incorrect paper settings
Thank you! I was printing from a different printer profile and that option wasn't available, but it is available under another, so that should work! Thanks so much!
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Re: DTP on P700 - Printer auto selecting incorrect paper settings
Chloe, you didn't mention what platform you're using. If you're on MacOS, the option to use the Front Poster Board paper feed is available. In Print Tool, click on Paper & Print Settings, scroll down to Printer Options, then click on the little i in a circle on the QuadToneRip option. You'll see the Paper Feed selection there. I use it all the time on my P800, I hope it's the same for the P800.
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Dear Jon and Walker,
?
Thank you for your prompt responses.
?
I tried printing the target at 100% and ensured it was letter size, aligned properly without white paper on the sides, and using the Cyanotype curve (Piezography-21x16step-i1Pro3-fixed.pwxf). However, I¡¯m still encountering the same error.
?
Interestingly, the i1 Profiler works perfectly with other processes and targets. I¡¯m unsure why this issue persists specifically with the gum bichromate target.
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Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
?
Kind regards,
Graciana
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Re: QuadToner Profiler-Pro quit unespectedly while opening measurement data text file.
Richard, Please forgive me, I know I¡¯m driving you crazy. I did not read the manual completely. I am now.
Ernesto.
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On 3 Jul 2024, at 10:26?p.m., Richard Boutwell <richard@...> wrote:
[Edited Message Follows] This is a case of not reading the manual.? You can't load a measurement file with a mix of color and gray inks because it is going to try to make a single grayscale curve (because it is only using the L* ramp of each ink for the crossover points).
the partitioning needs to be done separately from 4 sets of measurement files for the K-Lk-LLk, C-Lc, M-Lm, and Y inks (assuming the normal k3 ink set and not a custom or duotone inkset).
Also the ink ramps need to be read in order for darkest ink to lightest, and from 0-100 ink load (or paper white to darkest patch for each row)
Hope that helps,? Richard Boutwell ?
http://www.richardboutwell.com/ http://www.bwmastery.com/
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Dear Graciana,
In this case though the shadow of the top left/right white paper is possibly causing a double line read at the first and last patches (specifically that little gap between the end black line and the paper white.
So perfectly align the left right papers or just don¡¯t use them at all and make sure you start on paper white and end on paper white.
The i1Pro3 (and 2) read their positions by the little zebra line at the base of the device except for the start/finish line (which is demarcated by the black vertical thin line). So your problem here is simply having the white paper not perfectly in alignment with the edge of each black line.
Also make sure you start moving when the the start DING sounds and don¡¯t go too slow because this will make the double read error more prone to happen. ?
In general sizing on this target should not matter if it¡¯s a little small or big because I oversized all the patches when I built the target a few years back. There is room to ¡°shrink.¡± This target is specifically built for alt-process and I took into account all those variables.
best -Walker
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On Jul 3, 2024, at 2:42?PM, gracianapiaggio via groups.io <gracianapiaggio@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I¡¯m experiencing a persistent issue with my i1 Profiler i1 PRO3 while calibrating my tricolor gum bichromate prints. Here¡¯s a summary of the steps I've taken and the problems I¡¯m facing:
1. Printed Targets: Used Piezography Pro DN curves, printed in magenta.
2. Measurement Setup:
? ?- Mode: Single scan (M0, M1, M2, and OBC)
? ?- Device Selection: RGB Printer
3. Calibration and Verification: Recalibrated the device, ensured alignment, and used a white backing.
4. Problem: Receiving the error: ¡°Error: Reference colors do not match measured values. Make sure you are scanning row 1 and try again.¡±
? ?- Spot mode works, but measuring the entire row in single scan mode fails.
? ?- Tried measuring the first two rows in spot mode and continuing in single scan, but it didn¡¯t work.
Additional Information:
- Successfully calibrated cyanotype, ziatype, and Malde Ware prints with the same setup.
- I am suspecting the textured nature of gum bichromate might be causing the issue? I read about substrate detection, but could not find the option in i1 Profiler.
- Attached is a photo of my latest test and the error message.
Any suggestions on what might be causing this issue or how to resolve it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Graciana
<IMG_1694.jpeg><Screenshot 2024-06-23 at 13.08.28.png>
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Re: Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Hi Graciana,
I noticed you trimmed off the starting and end points of the target rows that i1 uses to find its beginning of and end of measurements. It may be that it can not come off the white strips of paper you attached and accurately measure that there is a starting black line and stopping black line.? I do not know if you printed the target exactly at 100% but if you printed it slightly smaller or larger it will cause read errors. i1 calculates distance between these start and end lines based on the descriptor file and then divides by number of columns in descriptor file to figure out the patches measurements. The error is telling you that it can not figure it out the layout of patches.? It may be worth printing the target at 100% (double check) and keep the sides on it...?
kindest regards,
Jon
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Re: EPSON SC-P900 Ink Calibration image creation
This is because it is for use with the custom curve creation and partition module that is limited to 8 channels. (This might change in the future.)
if you want to create a full 10-ink target just list the inks in the order you want and save them as separate images.
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
http://www.richardboutwell.com/
http://www.bwmastery.com/
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Re: QuadToner Profiler-Pro quit unespectedly while opening measurement data text file.
This is a case of not reading the manual.?
You can't load a measurement file with a mix of color and gray inks because it is going to try to make a single grayscale curve (because it is only using the L* ramp of each ink for the crossover points).
the partitioning needs to be done separately from 4 sets of measurement files for the K-Lk-LLk, C-Lc, M-Lm, and Y inks (assuming the normal k3 ink set and not a custom or duotone inkset).
Also the ink ramps need to be read in order for darkest ink to lightest, and from 0-100 ink load (or paper white to darkest patch for each row)
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
http://www.richardboutwell.com/
http://www.bwmastery.com/
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Re: EPSON SC-P900 Ink Calibration image creation
The separation files are in the installed folder, for windows, \QuadToneRIP\bin\. Print the 10 ink chart under calibration mode.?  -- Kang-Wei Hsu download FREE preview£ºEffect of Fixatives on Inkjet Papers Preservation and Imaging Quality
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QuadToner Profiler-Pro quit unespectedly while opening measurement data text file.
QuadTonerProfiler-Pro quit unespectedly while opening measurement data text file.
I'm including the measurement TXT file that I got from the i1Profiler app and i1PRO3 after meassuring the printed inkseparation10.tif. Loading this file crashes QuadTonerProfiler-Pro.
After printing inkseparation10.tif with PrintTool,? 21 columns and 10 rows (one for each ink) were measured with the i1Profiler, and saved as requested. That file makes tQuadTonerProfiler-Pro quit with an error.
But if I measure only black and gray rows, without color inks an M0 scan with 21 columns and 4 rows can be opened in QuadTonerProfiler-Pro without a crash.
In QuadTonerProfiler-Pro underCustom Profile Creator/Custom Curve Ceation after selecting the P900 from the dropdown menu all 10 inks show up with correct names. So whats the point to have 10 ink option when the interface only supports eight ink slots.
Shall I measure 8 inks only to get a file 21 colums by 8 rows? And if so, which 2 inks shall I leave out?
Thank you for your help!
Ernesto Morales
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Re: EPSON SC-P900 Ink Calibration image creation
I'm sorry Kang-Wei Hsu, I thought I had to ceate the fila and I had it installed already.
Thank you for your help!
Ernesto
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DTP on P700 - Printer auto selecting incorrect paper settings
I bought a P700 about a year ago for DTP photogravures. I have been able to overcome most issues, but I continue to run into a problem with the printer auto selecting incorrect paper types. The only paper type that seems to create good plates is Poster Board - but anytime I change the size of plate, the printer wants to change it something else, usually Fine Art (Thick)... Is there some sort of override that I could change to only allow Poster Board? I print from the "Print-Tool" software and there isn't an option for Poster Board in those settings either, so I typically keep it on auto-select (which is likely part of my problem). Is there a place I can download more paper types for the "Print Tool" software? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!
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Help Needed: i1 Profiler Error with Tricolor Gum Bichromate Calibration
Hi everyone,
I¡¯m experiencing a persistent issue with my i1 Profiler i1 PRO3 while calibrating my tricolor gum bichromate prints. Here¡¯s a summary of the steps I've taken and the problems I¡¯m facing:
1. Printed Targets: Used Piezography Pro DN curves, printed in magenta.
2. Measurement Setup:
? ?- Mode: Single scan (M0, M1, M2, and OBC)
? ?- Device Selection: RGB Printer
3. Calibration and Verification: Recalibrated the device, ensured alignment, and used a white backing.
4. Problem: Receiving the error: ¡°Error: Reference colors do not match measured values. Make sure you are scanning row 1 and try again.¡±
? ?- Spot mode works, but measuring the entire row in single scan mode fails.
? ?- Tried measuring the first two rows in spot mode and continuing in single scan, but it didn¡¯t work.
Additional Information:
- Successfully calibrated cyanotype, ziatype, and Malde Ware prints with the same setup.
- I am suspecting the textured nature of gum bichromate might be causing the issue? I read about substrate detection, but could not find the option in i1 Profiler.
- Attached is a photo of my latest test and the error message.
Any suggestions on what might be causing this issue or how to resolve it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Graciana
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BobB
Jon Cone
Richard Boutwell
Kang-Wei Hsu
