Re: Just starting out with QTR
Be careful with that correction curve spreadsheet tool if you are making straight/positive inkjet prints!
I'm not sure where you were able to dig that up, but it is for negatives only. Using it for straight inkjet positives will give you an inverse correction for what you actually want.
It is essentially the same linearization lookup table function as what was in the OG QuadLin/QuadToneProfiler spreadsheets that I no longer support, but just spits out the correction curve as a list of inputs : outputs (rather than applying it to the quad file).
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
This is a problem with the actual printer and not QTR/PrintTool. The paper sensor on the P700/P900 is seeing the first few strips and thinking the paper is a different size than what is loaded and indexing/clipping the subsequent strips.
There is a super simple work-around that I just recommend across the board for all printers now (the large format Px000 will give a feed error and or even 3880s/P800s sometimes).
You need to rotate the image 180 degrees and put the (new) bottom edge of the image 1-inch from the bottom margin of the paper, and run the print for first component (you need to rotate it so that it can still be measured from white to black/left to right and have K component at the top of the page...) Then re-feed the paper so the clean white area goes in first.
Then you select and duplicate the image for bottom strip in the image list view (not in the print layout window to insure that it wont move when you select it and prevents messing up the placement and spacing for the next strip). Then arrange the duplicate image right above the previously printed one and add a 1/8 to 1/4-inch gap. Then select and remove the lower image and run the print for the next component, (and repeat for each of the remaining components).
Always doing it this way allows you to get all the strips on the same page (and in the correct order) and wont force you to waste paper/time trimming first 1-1/2 inches after each strip and taping them back together later... The reason I started doing this with the 3880s/P800 is that it also prevents the rubberized sheet feeder cam from scuffing the previously printed strip each time.?
One other thing I noticed in your print. You need to always leave a 1-inch from the top and bottom edge of the paper when using QTR with the P600/P800 and P700/900 so you don't get microbanding in the first inch (not exactly sure of the reason or exactly what it is, but the QTR dithering is different than Epson's, where that isn't a problem when using the native color driver and media settings)
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell?
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
I'm sure folks here are tired of my quick replies.
I'm now thinking I wrongly accused QTR. ?I put a clean sheet of paper in the P900, and no problem immediately after having a problem. ?I put in a sheet where I've printed a few test strips on the page, then it happens (and I seem to be able to replicate this). ?Maybe the P900 is trying to detect the edge of the paper and my prior prints messes up that measurement...not sure, I'm shooting in the dark here.
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Re: QTR not printing full width, intermittently
Ok, I'm loosing my head it seems. ?I waited over night, and tried to print again with no changes (just hit print again on PrintTool). ?And it's back to printing full width using the QTR printer.
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QTR not printing full width, intermittently
I’ve had a weird QTR failure twice tonight. ?Suddenly QTR stops printing in the right side of the paper. ?This sheet shows multiple passes through the printer (to not waste paper). The first 4 times were fine, and then it suddenly stopped printing part of the right side of the page. ?This behavior repeats with subsequent prints, but stopping at a different place each time. ?I’m pretty sure it’s QTR as the same printer doesn’t have this issue straight printing, it doesn’t seem to be printtool as that prints fine not using QTR printer. ?Rebooted computer and printer and no better. ?Uninstall and reinstall qtr and everything worked again. ?Until it started again after about 9 prints. ?MacOS 14.3.1, Epson P900 USB connected, QTR 2.8.2.? 
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Dear Paul,
I find your statement to be misleading as UltraHD is clearly the winner in dMax over-all (which is generally the want here). Also, overly pigmented inks = nozzle clogs in the long run. Much better to use a stronger base pigment with more carrier liquid.
And in my measurements of UltraHD on Arches 88 I measured L* of 11.89.
If you are going for cheapness, stay with OEM IMO. Less hassle than third party. But if you are going to go third party and deal with the hassle, UltraHD is clearly what you should put in there . . .
-Walker
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On Mar 4, 2024, at 10:46?AM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Pull that image into Photoshop and measure?the densities with the eyedropper tool.? The STS hits L 17; the Piezo hits L 18.? (Lower L number is darker.)? The main difference is that the STS hits its dmax much earlier.? (And that translates into even lower MK ink costs.)??
Paul On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 7:10?AM Richard Boutwell < richard@...> wrote: I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago:
Hope that helps,?Richard Boutwell ?
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Got it! It was in front if my face and I didn't see it. Richard's spreadsheet "BWMASTERY-21-step-QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool-for-Digital-Negatives" has a column of data titled Correction Curve to the left of the column Digital Negatives. These are the values to use inside GRAY_CURVE (along with the respective step %) that make the correction for print to positive. It works out perfectly. I'm ready to move on with the various toning profiles now that I know how to use both Gray-Curve (Toner_Curve) and Linearize. Thanks to all for the help along the way...
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New to QTR, paper profiles question
Hello,
As Epson ABW gives me warm tint in highlights and cool tint in shadows I decided to try QTR.
I basically stopped printing since the tints are driving me crazy and I only do B&W (well, now mostly in darkroom).
Please correct me if I am wrong however I feel like the necessary step would be to buy (I have nowhere to rent) printer/paper calibration device.
Is it possible to use somebody else's QTR profile (I use Hahnemuele Photo RAg 308/500, HM Ulrasmooth mostly) for the time being or do I need to create my own??
I used?UCmk-HMPRduo-neutral just to try however, the print is promising in terms of neutrality however very washed out and less contrasty compared to ABW print. ABW creates prints which are almost 1:1 (in terms of contrast) to what I see on monitor however have these color tints.
It's clear I am at the beginning of steep learning curve and understand I need to invest time however I am confused as to how proceed and wasn't very successful in finding accessible tutorial ... I am more comfortable in my darkroom :)
Woul
Petr?
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Pull that image into Photoshop and measure?the densities with the eyedropper tool.? The STS hits L 17; the Piezo hits L 18.? (Lower L number is darker.)? The main difference is that the STS hits its dmax much earlier.? (And that translates into even lower MK ink costs.)??
Paul
On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 7:10?AM Richard Boutwell < richard@...> wrote: I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago:
Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
I did a comparison of the Epson, cone, and sts MK when I first converted one of my printers over to the UDMK. Here is the blog post from a few years ago: Hope that helps,?
Richard Boutwell
?
http://www.richardboutwell.com/
http://www.bwmastery.com/
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
That's what I use in my Piezo PRO set up since I still had some Epson MK left. I just made profiles with it.
Hi,
New to the forum. I would normally post this over on the Piezography forum but it's down at the moment and I imagine plenty of you over here will have experience of piezography. Plus I'd thought about dipping my toe in these here waters anyway :)
Has anyone ever tried using official Epson matte black in place of Piezography ultra HD matte black ink? While still using the other Piezography dark, medium and light gray inks, as well as the PIezography Pro linearisation tools.
Roughly speaking, would this work? I envisage some hit to dmax, but that's fine, this is for printing hand made zines and books and so dmax isn't as much a concern as it is for when I make wall prints on fancier papers.
I have a "Piezography Pro" setup on a 3880 and a R3000. I am only using 7 channels on each as I never print gloss/photo black, so my thinking is I would just use one of the two spare channels on each printer for an Epson matte black cartridge. Keeping the Piezography ultra HD matte black cartridge in place for when I make prints.
Why would I do this you ask? Until investing in my piezography setup I had no idea quite how unstable Piezography matte black can be on the surface of the paper compared to Epson matte black. On many papers, the mearest light touch can easily smudge the Piezography matte black ink. Not such a problem for wall prints, but definitely an issue for zines and books. For my first book made using piezography inks () I got around this by using a spray fixative (I found Permajet PermaSeal the best) and really reducing the ink limit as much as possible while still getting a satisfactory dmax. However spraying each page was loooong, not to mention smelly. When printing on the same papers using standard Epson inks the result is vastly more stable to touch.
I do have a P600 still running Epson inks, which I use for colour work, however I predominantly work in BW and I want to keep the Piezography workflow which I have found so precise and efficient for trialling and optimising papers that I may use in my books and zines, not to mention the toning, which I find lifts the end result above what I have ever been able to achieve with Epson inks.
Cheers,
Chris.
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
On Sun, Mar 3, 2024 at 11:46?AM Chris Jack < itsmrjack@...> wrote: ...
How stable is the STS ink to touch?
In my view, no print is totally immune?to damage by touching.? I put most of my matte prints behind glass.? That said, a matte canvas print has been on display at a friend's house for years without problems.? What I prefer, however, is a sprayed satin finish, un-glazed. ? And are you saying the STS formulation is similar or the same as Epson matt black?
It's close, but I have not compared them.? For the Arches printing I did, I needed 2 MK positions, regardless of source.
Paul
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
Oh, you’re completely correct. It’s a curve that you’d use to linearize your densities. Effectively the inverse curve.? E
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On Mar 3, 2024, at 8:06?PM, luigi@... wrote:
?OK this makes sense to me. However, where do I get expected densities? When I look at the output (GRAY_CURVE) from "BWMASTERY-21-step-QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool-for-Digital-Negatives", it looks like something different is going on. The first value of the pair is as you suggest the excepted value taken from the step tablet (0 to 100 in steps of 5). The second number is something altogether different. it is neither the expected nor the measured, but some correction factor. If I make a plot of the output pairs from the excel sheet, it looks like a mirror image of the original measured densities. Presumably, when applied this correction factor moves the measured densities onto the ideal straight line between 0;0 and 100;100. This sheet is designed to output a GRAY_CURVE for negatives, the principle should be the same if the curve is for a positive print to paper...I'm just not sure what to make of this correction factor...
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
If you can take a higher loss of density, PK ink has much better performance on?abrasion resistance. Or you can mix Epson PK and Piezography UHD MK in a ratio been tested on your paper, to recovery some density and keep the resistance?performance. And I mean using the QTR curve to control it, not mixing them in a bottle?physically.
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Kang-Wei Hsu
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Effect of Fixatives on Inkjet Papers Preservation and Imaging Quality
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
OK this makes sense to me. However, where do I get expected densities? When I look at the output (GRAY_CURVE) from "BWMASTERY-21-step-QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool-for-Digital-Negatives", it looks like something different is going on. The first value of the pair is as you suggest the excepted value taken from the step tablet (0 to 100 in steps of 5). The second number is something altogether different. it is neither the expected nor the measured, but some correction factor. If I make a plot of the output pairs from the excel sheet, it looks like a mirror image of the original measured densities. Presumably, when applied this correction factor moves the measured densities onto the ideal straight line between 0;0 and 100;100. This sheet is designed to output a GRAY_CURVE for negatives, the principle should be the same if the curve is for a positive print to paper...I'm just not sure what to make of this correction factor...
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Epson MK will work just fine. Slight loss of dmax but no need to recalibrate
best, Walker
Hi,
New to the forum. I would normally post this over on the Piezography forum but it's down at the moment and I imagine plenty of you over here will have experience of piezography. Plus I'd thought about dipping my toe in these here waters anyway :)
Has anyone ever tried using official Epson matte black in place of Piezography ultra HD matte black ink? While still using the other Piezography dark, medium and light gray inks, as well as the PIezography Pro linearisation tools.
Roughly speaking, would this work? I envisage some hit to dmax, but that's fine, this is for printing hand made zines and books and so dmax isn't as much a concern as it is for when I make wall prints on fancier papers.
I have a "Piezography Pro" setup on a 3880 and a R3000. I am only using 7 channels on each as I never print gloss/photo black, so my thinking is I would just use one of the two spare channels on each printer for an Epson matte black cartridge. Keeping the Piezography ultra HD matte black cartridge in place for when I make prints.
Why would I do this you ask? Until investing in my piezography setup I had no idea quite how unstable Piezography matte black can be on the surface of the paper compared to Epson matte black. On many papers, the mearest light touch can easily smudge the Piezography matte black ink. Not such a problem for wall prints, but definitely an issue for zines and books. For my first book made using piezography inks () I got around this by using a spray fixative (I found Permajet PermaSeal the best) and really reducing the ink limit as much as possible while still getting a satisfactory dmax. However spraying each page was loooong, not to mention smelly. When printing on the same papers using standard Epson inks the result is vastly more stable to touch.
I do have a P600 still running Epson inks, which I use for colour work, however I predominantly work in BW and I want to keep the Piezography workflow which I have found so precise and efficient for trialling and optimising papers that I may use in my books and zines, not to mention the toning, which I find lifts the end result above what I have ever been able to achieve with Epson inks.
Cheers,
Chris.
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
GRAY_CURVE has pairs of numbers - in each pair, the first number is the expected density, and the second number is the actual (measured) density. The expected densities go from 0 to 100. Measured densities can, I believe, be in any monotonically-increasing units. ? Example: both the expected and the actual 0 density were the same 0 value. Next value, I printed out a gray value of 5% but when I measured it it was 11%. Third one, I printed out 10% but it measured as 19%.? So, my GRAY_CURVE might start out GRAY_CURVE=“0;0 ?5;11 ? 10;19 ? [and so on until the end of the curve…] ?95;70 ?100;72"
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I managed to create a warm curve for Canson Arches 88 paper on my P-800. The process worked out better than I expected. The 21-step target printed almost perfectly linear (using LINEARIZE with Data-Tool). I started with the warm because it did not require toner inks. I have to say that the tone of the black inks alone is not to my liking at all :) I'll be working on the other curves this week.
The new problem has to do with Gray_Curve. I think this is an important tool in the arsenal to get linear curves and I would like to experiment. The document "Quad Ink Descriptor File Format?Specification For QuadToneRIP 2.8" is a godsend for learning the ins and outs of the ink descriptor file. However, the format for the Gray_Curve key still has me puzzled. I get the overall format but not "input-output coordinates." It appears from the description I can use density measurements but I'm not sure if they are the input or output, and what's the other number? I tried with the %lightness of the 21-step target as the "other" and get crazy non-linear results...Thanks for your continued support with this.
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Re: Just starting out with QTR
I managed to create a warm curve for Canson Arches 88 paper on my P-800. The process worked out better than I expected. The 21-step target printed almost perfectly linear (using LINEARIZE with Data-Tool). I started with the warm because it did not require toner inks. I have to say that the tone of the black inks alone is not to my liking at all :) I'll be working on the other curves this week.
The new problem has to do with Gray_Curve. I think this is an important tool in the arsenal to get linear curves and I would like to experiment. The document "Quad Ink Descriptor File Format?Specification For QuadToneRIP 2.8" is a godsend for learning the ins and outs of the ink descriptor file. However, the format for the Gray_Curve key still has me puzzled. I get the overall format but not "input-output coordinates." It appears from the description I can use density measurements but I'm not sure if they are the input or output, and what's the other number? I tried with the %lightness of the 21-step target as the "other" and get crazy non-linear results...Thanks for your continued support with this.
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
Hi Paul, I have been interested in your recipes/approach. Particularly in regards to this 'touch stability' issue (please correct me if there's a better term to use), so I'm glad you chipped in.
How stable is the STS ink to touch?
And are you saying the STS formulation is similar or the same as Epson matt black? Apologies if not, that's what I'm inferring from your reply.
Cheers,
Chris.
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Re: Using Epson Matte Black instead of Piezography Ultra HD Matte
...?I had no idea quite how unstable Piezography matte black can be on the surface of the paper compared to Epson matte black. On many papers, the mearest light touch can easily smudge the Piezography matte black ink. Not such a problem for wall prints, but definitely an issue for zines and books. ...
Interesting comment.? I have usually used STS (source of old MIS) inks.? I bought a sample of Piezo Mk and noticed the dmax was better.? However, more carbon in the solution appears to come with some potential negatives.? On the wall, I don't think anyone notices the differences in dmax.? I suspect Epson decided on its MK carbon ink load based on practical market experience.
FWIW
Paul &
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Richard Boutwell
Kang-Wei Hsu