Re: U2 gps timing data

Hans Summers

Paul, Tony

That's all very very strange. I wonder if there is something in the firmware that is causing it! That will prompt me to do a new printout of the current firmware and contemplate it during my train ride to/from work...

73 Hans G0UPL

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...> wrote:

?

I have exactly the same experience Paul. I am gradually zeroing in on the perfect clock setting and am currently at?19984500 for the entry of the System Clock. This has kept it pretty close to the BBC time signal for 24 hours. Funnily enough, when I listen in on my FT 857 D, the clock can clearly be taken to zero beat in USB ?mode at 20,002,000. Very odd, but I have mine keeping time quite well now. If I set SYSTEM CLOCK to the value of the actual clock oscillation the clock runs slow.

Tony G0bzb

Re: U2 gps timing data

Tony Volpe

#1479

I have exactly the same experience Paul. I am gradually zeroing in on the perfect clock setting and am currently at?19984500 for the entry of the System Clock. This has kept it pretty close to the BBC time signal for 24 hours. Funnily enough, when I listen in on my FT 857 D, the clock can clearly be taken to zero beat in USB ?mode at 20,002,000. Very odd, but I have mine keeping time quite well now. If I set SYSTEM CLOCK to the value of the actual clock oscillation the clock runs slow.

Tony G0bzb

Re: U2 gps timing data

"Paul KE7HR"

#1478

My new 2.02a has also changed the clock settings by only changing the processor.  I have a small piece of the foam that the processor was stuck into for shipping as an insulator over the 20 MHz crystal.  Enough to go the length of the DDS and fill the gap between the main board and the DDS.  This did not change when I changed the chip.

My stable setting with version 2.01 was 20,002,000 (which would run for several days without needing to be reset) and I am still zeroing in on the new setting but, it is down around 19,978,000.  All running without GPS.  Around 24 kHz of change seems like a lot for only changing the chip.  I have not tried changing the frame rate to see if there is a correlation between the transmit duty cycle and the timekeeping.  I have been staying at a frame rate of 06 on WSPR and was spotted 124 times last night on 80 meters as the clock was more stable over night.

The DDS oscillator calculation stayed stable with the processor change.

Nothing else has changed - room air conditioner at the same setting, same position in the room, same power supply, etc.

Paul KE7HR DM33xo

Re: 2nd U2 kit build

"Yannick"

#1477

Yes, very nice work indeed Philip.

73,
Yan - XV4Y.

Show quoted text

--- In QRPLabs@..., Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...> wrote:

I love the way you build things Philip.

That stuff looks great.

G0bzb
Tony

Re: U2 gps timing data

Andy Cutland

#1476

Hans, you were right. When I got back home I pulled the insulation cover away from the U2 and found a Murphy's whisker causing problems. All sorted now with the system clock keeping good time.

73's
andy

------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 11:14 AM PDT Tony Volpe wrote:

Thanks for the explanation Hans. If you say it, it must be true. The reason
I sound puzzled is that when I started having trouble with the U2 and my
GPS board, and since I don't have a scope, I rigged up a way of listening
for the GPS board's 1pps with an earphone. I watched the behaviour, or
listened to it on the 1pps line. When the unit had no lock, all was silent,
then as it got lock, the red led on the gps unit began flashing and about
eight seconds later, I started to hear a tick in the earphone as the GPS
began sending the 1pps. You must be right and it keeps sending even if
there is no lock, but I didn't think so. When I get the chance, I'll set up
my 'ear scope' again and see. :))

Tony


On 1 July 2013 14:53, Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:

**



Andy:

When GPS is ON, the U2 relies on the 1pps as it's one second tick. The U1
behaved exactly the same way. If you have a GPS module which stops sending
the 1pps signal when it loses satellite lock, then the U2 time would stop
too.

Tony:

Some GPS modules stop the 1pps signal when the satellites lose lock. If
you have that kind, the U2 would stop then too. The U1 behaved the same. If
your GPS module lost lock then I think it must be the kind which still
sends a 1pps signal regardless (from the GPS module's internal timing).

Andy:

If your U2 jumps 1's and 2's seconds when not in GPS mode then I think you
have some other problem, RF pickup, ground loops, I have no idea... but
that definitely isn't normal! The U2 should be able to operate correctly
with no GPS module and should be accurate enough once you calibrate the
system clock, for many days of WSPR operation.

All:

You are all correct though: I should make the software so that if the 1pps
signal stops for any reason, the system keeps time with its own internal
oscillator, the same way as when GPS is off. One more enhancement for the
list :-/

73 Hans G0UPL





On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

**


Hi Tony,

I've only switched the U2 off gps once to check the 20mhz clock setting
anf the results scared me so I switched the gps back in straight away. The
seconds were very random, jumping up in twos and stopping then jumping
again? I guess this may be the problem then !

73's
De andy


  ------------------------------
 *From:* Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...>
*To:* QRPLabs@...
*Sent:* Monday, July 1, 2013 1:05 PM
*Subject:* [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data


How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator
frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few
minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if
the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the
GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might
 lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then
regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its
operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the
unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR
time parameters.

Tony
G0BZB



 

Re: U2 gps timing data

Tony Volpe

#1475

Thanks for the explanation Hans. If you say it, it must be true. The reason I sound puzzled is that when I started having trouble with the U2 and my GPS board, and since I don't have a scope, I rigged up a way of listening for the GPS board's 1pps with an earphone. I watched the behaviour, or listened to it on the 1pps line. When the unit had no lock, all was silent, then as it got lock, the red led on the gps unit began flashing and about eight seconds later, I started to hear a tick in the earphone as the GPS began sending the 1pps. You must be right and it keeps sending even if there is no lock, but I didn't think so. When I get the chance, I'll set up my 'ear scope' again and see. :))

Tony

Show quoted text

On 1 July 2013 14:53, Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:

?

Andy:

When GPS is ON, the U2 relies on the 1pps as it's one second tick. The U1 behaved exactly the same way. If you have a GPS module which stops sending the 1pps signal when it loses satellite lock, then the U2 time would stop too.

Tony:

Some GPS modules stop the 1pps signal when the satellites lose lock. If you have that kind, the U2 would stop then too. The U1 behaved the same. If your GPS module lost lock then I think it must be the kind which still sends a 1pps signal regardless (from the GPS module's internal timing).

Andy:?

If your U2 jumps 1's and 2's seconds when not in GPS mode then I think you have some other problem, RF pickup, ground loops, I have no idea... but that definitely isn't normal! The U2 should be able to operate correctly with no GPS module and should be accurate enough once you calibrate the system clock, for many days of WSPR operation.

All:

You are all correct though: I should make the software so that if the 1pps signal stops for any reason, the system keeps time with its own internal oscillator, the same way as when GPS is off. One more enhancement for the list :-/

73 Hans G0UPL

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

?

Hi Tony,

I've only switched the U2 off gps once to check the 20mhz clock setting anf the results scared me so I switched the gps back in straight away. The seconds were very random, jumping up in twos and stopping then jumping again? I guess this may be the problem then !

73's
De andy

From: Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...>
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

?

How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might ?lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR time parameters.?

Tony
G0BZB

Re: U2 using gps without 1pps

"Colin XSD"

#1474

开云体育

I think that would be ideal Hans. If the 1pps is available use it, if not use the NMEA data to auto correct the Frequency Reference.

I doubt that is a simple task but it would allow use of a greater variety of GPS modules (& even Bluetooth units, if a Bluetooth Module is fitted).

?

73, Colin M0XSD.

?

Show quoted text

From: Hans Summers

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:53 PM

To: QRPLabs@...

Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

?

All:

?

You are all correct though: I should make the software so that if the 1pps signal stops for any reason, the system keeps time with its own internal oscillator, the same way as when GPS is off. One more enhancement for the list :-/

?

73 Hans G0UPL

?

Re: U2 gps timing data

Andy Cutland

#1473

Hi Hans

Thanks for the reply.

Its certainly strange as I had the kits clock working fine (kept perfect time over 3 days) with version 2.01. All I have done is put 2.02a in.

Now that I know its working fine with the reyax up 501 module I will experiment without it to see if I can get the clock working ok on its own.

I'll let you know how I get on.

73's

andy

Show quoted text

From: Hans Summers
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

Andy:

When GPS is ON, the U2 relies on the 1pps as it's one second tick. The U1 behaved exactly the same way. If you have a GPS module which stops sending the 1pps signal when it loses satellite lock, then the U2 time would stop too.

Tony:

Some GPS modules stop the 1pps signal when the satellites lose lock. If you have that kind, the U2 would stop then too. The U1 behaved the same. If your GPS module lost lock then I think it must be the kind which still sends a 1pps signal regardless (from the GPS module's internal timing).

Andy:?

If your U2 jumps 1's and 2's seconds when not in GPS mode then I think you have some other problem, RF pickup, ground loops, I have no idea... but that definitely isn't normal! The U2 should be able to operate correctly with no GPS module and should be accurate enough once you calibrate the system clock, for many days of WSPR operation.

All:

You are all correct though: I should make the software so that if the 1pps signal stops for any reason, the system keeps time with its own internal oscillator, the same way as when GPS is off. One more enhancement for the list :-/

73 Hans G0UPL

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

?

Hi Tony,

I've only switched the U2 off gps once to check the 20mhz clock setting anf the results scared me so I switched the gps back in straight away. The seconds were very random, jumping up in twos and stopping then jumping again? I guess this may be the problem then !

73's
De andy

From: Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...>
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

?

How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might ?lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR time parameters.?

Tony
G0BZB

Re: U2 gps timing data

Hans Summers

#1472

Andy:

When GPS is ON, the U2 relies on the 1pps as it's one second tick. The U1 behaved exactly the same way. If you have a GPS module which stops sending the 1pps signal when it loses satellite lock, then the U2 time would stop too.

Tony:

Some GPS modules stop the 1pps signal when the satellites lose lock. If you have that kind, the U2 would stop then too. The U1 behaved the same. If your GPS module lost lock then I think it must be the kind which still sends a 1pps signal regardless (from the GPS module's internal timing).

Andy:?

If your U2 jumps 1's and 2's seconds when not in GPS mode then I think you have some other problem, RF pickup, ground loops, I have no idea... but that definitely isn't normal! The U2 should be able to operate correctly with no GPS module and should be accurate enough once you calibrate the system clock, for many days of WSPR operation.

All:

You are all correct though: I should make the software so that if the 1pps signal stops for any reason, the system keeps time with its own internal oscillator, the same way as when GPS is off. One more enhancement for the list :-/

73 Hans G0UPL

Show quoted text

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...> wrote:

?

Hi Tony,

I've only switched the U2 off gps once to check the 20mhz clock setting anf the results scared me so I switched the gps back in straight away. The seconds were very random, jumping up in twos and stopping then jumping again? I guess this may be the problem then !

73's
De andy

From: Tony Volpe <tony.volpe.1951@...>
To: QRPLabs@...
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

?

How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might ?lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR time parameters.?

Tony
G0BZB

Re: U2 gps timing data

Andy Cutland

#1471

Hi Tony,

I've only switched the U2 off gps once to check the 20mhz clock setting anf the results scared me so I switched the gps back in straight away. The seconds were very random, jumping up in twos and stopping then jumping again? I guess this may be the problem then !

73's
De andy

Show quoted text

From: Tony Volpe
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: [QRPLabs] Re: U2 gps timing data

How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might ?lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR time parameters.?

Tony

G0BZB

Re: U2 gps timing data

Tony Volpe

#1470

How far out is the nominal 20MHZ clock setting from the actual oscillator frequency Andy? I can't see how the unit could go off time over a few minutes? My understanding is that it resorts to its own internal clock if the GPS loses lock. My UQ1 certainly did that. I have often observed the GPS board losing lock in my year long 24/7 operation of the UQ1. It might ?lose the satellites for ten minutes at a time (being indoors) and then regain it. Its time keeping remained well within bounds throughout its operation. Even with the system clock being set at the nominal value, the unit ought to keep time for many hours without getting outside the WSPR time parameters.?

Tony

G0BZB

U2 gps timing data

Andy Cutland

#1469

Hi Hans,

Just wondering if you could clear something up for me please. 

I thought timing sync came from the nmea data from the gps. It looks to me that once a pps signal is received, the U2 takes its timing from that rather than the nmea data flow. I've noticed this because my U2 kit is located in a marginal gps signal location. On occasions the heart beat on the lcd will stop every now and again and as a consequence the time will be wrong after the tx period.

If this is the case, it may make more sense to have a time resync straight after a transmission period as any time discrepancy over 12 seconds may mean the kit misses the next tx frame.

I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this phenomenon?

73's
De Andy

Re: u2- v2.02a

Peter Douglas

#1468

Andy

Yes I have various GPS units that I have yet to try with v2.02a; none of them worked with v2.02, even the UP501, which other people managed to work. My difficulty is lack of time at the moment to work out the solutions, and a little circuit to tie in a led on the pps.?

73 Barry

Show quoted text

From: Andy Cutland
To: qrplabs@...
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] u2- v2.02a

Ok Barry, glad you found the problem. Are you going to use gps in the future?

------------------------------
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:23 AM PDT Peter Douglas wrote:

>Hi Andy
>Your email prompted me to make the obvious check: connections,
>
>I use females headers to the male pins on the pcb so I can remove the unit and other bits easily. Of course, one connector, feeding the common to S1 and S2, had failed!! Curious after 24hrs continuous use.
>
>Back in service now, and back to frequency calibration.
>
>Thanks for the reply. It really is a great little kit.
>73
>Barry
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...>
>To: qrplabs@...
>Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:57 PM
>Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] u2- v2.02a
>
>
>
>?
>
>
>Hi Barry,
>
>I think whats happening is the kit is waiting for the next transmit cycle so you may just have to wait a while after powering up before you see anything on the lcd. Did you have any number in the frame setting and start setting?
>
>73's
>De Andy
>
>------------------------------
>On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 3:45 AM PDT denyergr23 wrote:
>
>>Help please.
>>Just received v2.02a, inserted same, entered call-sign, message and other variables etc, and ran for 24 hrs to enable recalibration for time. After adjusting the ozzy for time, pulled the plug to reset frequency for frequency adjustment. On switching power on, clock starts from zero, fine, but neither button now does anything. So, I can neither reset time nor anything else! Have I missed something?
>>73 Barry M0HBM
>>
>
>
>

Re: u2- v2.02a

Andy Cutland

#1467

Ok Barry, glad you found the problem. Are you going to use gps in the future?

------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:23 AM PDT Peter Douglas wrote:

Hi Andy
Your email prompted me to make the obvious check: connections,

I use females headers to the male pins on the pcb so I can remove the unit and other bits easily. Of course, one connector, feeding the common to S1 and S2, had failed!! Curious after 24hrs continuous use.

Back in service now, and back to frequency calibration.

Thanks for the reply. It really is a great little kit.
73
Barry


________________________________
From: Andy Cutland <gj7rwt@...>
To: qrplabs@...
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] u2- v2.02a



?


Hi Barry,

I think whats happening is the kit is waiting for the next transmit cycle so you may just have to wait a while after powering up before you see anything on the lcd. Did you have any number in the frame setting and start setting?

73's
De Andy

------------------------------
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 3:45 AM PDT denyergr23 wrote:

Help please.
Just received v2.02a, inserted same, entered call-sign, message and other variables etc, and ran for 24 hrs to enable recalibration for time. After adjusting the ozzy for time, pulled the plug to reset frequency for frequency adjustment. On switching power on, clock starts from zero, fine,  but neither button now does anything. So, I can neither reset time nor anything else! Have I missed something?
73 Barry M0HBM

Re: u2- v2.02a

Peter Douglas

#1466

Hi Andy

Your email prompted me to make the obvious check: connections,

I use females headers to the male pins on the pcb so I can remove the unit and other bits easily. Of course, one connector, feeding the common to S1 and S2, had failed!! Curious after 24hrs continuous use.

Back in service now, and back to frequency calibration.

Thanks for the reply. It really is a great little kit.

73

Barry

Show quoted text

From: Andy Cutland
To: qrplabs@...
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] u2- v2.02a

Hi Barry,

I think whats happening is the kit is waiting for the next transmit cycle so you may just have to wait a while after powering up before you see anything on the lcd. Did you have any number in the frame setting and start setting?

73's
De Andy

------------------------------
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 3:45 AM PDT denyergr23 wrote:

>Help please.
>Just received v2.02a, inserted same, entered call-sign, message and other variables etc, and ran for 24 hrs to enable recalibration for time. After adjusting the ozzy for time, pulled the plug to reset frequency for frequency adjustment. On switching power on, clock starts from zero, fine, but neither button now does anything. So, I can neither reset time nor anything else! Have I missed something?
>73 Barry M0HBM
>

U2 and Trimble GPS

"RAY"

#1465

Hi All

I've had my U2 working for a few days now with a Trimble (Silvana/Condor)GPS.

The GPS is producing data & 1pps and sets the time and freq adjustment on the U2.

However it does not seem to want to update the locator and I'm not sure how or if it will do this. I enter the locator manually and all is fine.

Any advice would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Ray G4MSN

Re: u2- v2.02a

Andy Cutland

#1464

Hi Barry,

I think whats happening is the kit is waiting for the next transmit cycle so you may just have to wait a while after powering up before you see anything on the lcd. Did you have any number in the frame setting and start setting?

73's
De Andy

------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 3:45 AM PDT denyergr23 wrote:

Help please.
Just received v2.02a, inserted same, entered call-sign, message and other variables etc, and ran for 24 hrs to enable recalibration for time. After adjusting the ozzy for time, pulled the plug to reset frequency for frequency adjustment. On switching power on, clock starts from zero, fine,  but neither button now does anything. So, I can neither reset time nor anything else! Have I missed something? 
73 Barry M0HBM

u2- v2.02a

"denyergr23"

#1463

Help please.
Just received v2.02a, inserted same, entered call-sign, message and other variables etc, and ran for 24 hrs to enable recalibration for time. After adjusting the ozzy for time, pulled the plug to reset frequency for frequency adjustment. On switching power on, clock starts from zero, fine,  but neither button now does anything. So, I can neither reset time nor anything else! Have I missed something?
73 Barry M0HBM

Re: 2nd U2 kit build

"Philip"

#1462

unlike Philip, who probably made his first crystal set in an immaculate
enclosure.

bzb  :))

Of course!
Actually, it was one of my uncles cigar boxes...

This thread could turn into a Monty Python sketch....

"You were lucky, when I was a lad, five of use had to live in a cigar box and it had no lid"   :)

Great site you have there Hans....tinkerers paradise...

Philip  G4JVF

Re: beginnings => was: Re: Re: 2nd U2 kit build

Tony Volpe

#1461

That video is brilliant Graham.

I just sent it to my engineer son.

:))

bzb