"Paying women to have more children" is putting crudely what has been the tacit policy of world governments for many hundreds of years.? Only with the intense emphasis over the past half century or so on a "right" of every human being to experience as much sexual pleasure as he or she can stand has having offspring as a result of copulation become almost universally considered a nearly intolerable burden.? If the western world's priorities are to prevail, humans everywhere will cease to procreate and the race will die off.? Or maybe Aldous Huxley's vision of governments deciding on how many babies - and of which kinds - are desired to keep the species alive will prevail.

On Apr 26, 2025, at 13:32, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

Is paying women to have children a good idea?

I understand that farming consumers?pays more when there are many full stalls in the factory farm. I do not think we really need more people, however. We have outstripped out social wisdom and natural resource production. I suppose the idea has smaller validity if someone wants a specific genetic line continued or cannot have his or her own children, but I do not support?the urgency to slow population decline when the numbers are still in the multiple billions.

Categorizing *everything* is what the currently fashionable human mind evidently cannot stop itself from doing.? To Homo modernus, if it does not have a label it does not exist.

Needless to say, I hope, this has little or nothing to do with wisdom. ?

For what it's worth, here's ChatGPT:

Wisdom is the ability to understand what is true, good, or right — and to apply that understanding in real life.

It’s not just knowing facts; it’s seeing how things fit together and what matters most, especially when making decisions.

People often say wisdom involves:

? Experience — learning from what you and others have gone through.

? Judgment — choosing well when situations are unclear.

? Perspective — seeing beyond the immediate moment to the bigger picture.

? Humility — realizing you don’t know everything.

In short: Wisdom is living knowledge, shaped by reflection and used with care.

On Apr 26, 2025, at 13:32, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

5. Is categorizing knowledge important to attainment of wisdom?

Need to think about that one, maybe organize what I already know...

Not the highest priority, but maybe important? IMHO, accessing my knowledge base when making decisions is most effective when I am organized. Having said that, I often wake up with some of my best insights and plans...

When families no longer breed generation after generation, there are no more ancestors.? There is no history.? The seed of this was planted with the contraceptive pill (and the other devices using the same or similar chemicals) and the enthusiastic adoption of it by Western thought leaders.? Then we got the equally enthusiastic adoption of abortion.? Prevent children, kill children.? And now, of course, kill the old.? We have become a culture of pleasure and death.? Pleasure in the now and painless death when pleasure ceases to please.

On Apr 26, 2025, at 15:20, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

?

I do not feel that procreation has ceased, David, although I do not have peer-reviewed RCT's evidence to back this feeling! I do, however, know many families who have intentionally bred children from their stated personal desires to do so. In this matter, I suspect the media has selectively emphasized a downtrend in population quantities?to alarm consumers because special interests like large herds of consumers to support profits. Having offspring is not "universally an intolerable burden" due to any emphasis on consequence-free sexual indulgence, although I do see some justifiable reasons to reconsider breeding. Ridiculous qualities of poverty come to mind, as do endless regional warfare and the pressures of consumerism pushing the nuclear family into fulltime work.

The species may be flirting with extinction, but I suspect such an outcome will come from more dramatic influences than excited bunny-hopping away from breeding.?

D

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:04?AM David Smith via <dvdcsmth=[email protected]> wrote:

"Paying women to have more children" is putting crudely what has been the tacit policy of world governments for many hundreds of years.? Only with the intense emphasis over the past half century or so on a "right" of every human being to experience as much sexual pleasure as he or she can stand has having offspring as a result of copulation become almost universally considered a nearly intolerable burden.? If the western world's priorities are to prevail, humans everywhere will cease to procreate and the race will die off.? Or maybe Aldous Huxley's vision of governments deciding on how many babies - and of which kinds - are desired to keep the species alive will prevail.

On Apr 26, 2025, at 13:32, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

Is paying women to have children a good idea?

I understand that farming consumers?pays more when there are many full stalls in the factory farm. I do not think we really need more people, however. We have outstripped out social wisdom and natural resource production. I suppose the idea has smaller validity if someone wants a specific genetic line continued or cannot have his or her own children, but I do not support?the urgency to slow population decline when the numbers are still in the multiple billions.

Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?


> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.

// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//

Yep, that is where we are.? Standards make life workable.? No standards = chaos without end.? Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable.? With no standards, you have the wild west.? That didn't last long.? People instinctively want peace and order and civility.? Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body.? Humans are not bacteria.? We have minds and we *will* use them.? The human mind longs for and strives for order.

// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//

That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves.? But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid.? We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology.? That will give us Brave New World.? I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape.? We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.

On Apr 27, 2025, at 13:18, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

?

Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.

I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.

Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.

It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.

In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?

D

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 9:41?PM David Smith via <dvdcsmth=[email protected]> wrote:

Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?


> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.

// ? ? ?David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."

And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard.?? ? ?//

I imagine that most people just want living arrangements to work well enough now.? Planning for the distant future is for professional thinkers, who seem seldom to appreciate the high degree to which their perfect systems are merely fantasies peopled by imaginary creatures.? We real people live from day to day, with the people with whom we need to associate amicably enough now, not forever.

By the way, consider Ukraine.? Politicians and diplomats are focused on their fantasies of perfectly fair and balanced solutions, whereas Ukrainians on the ground are suffering and being maimed and slaughtered?now.

// ? ??Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.? ? ? ?//

Yep, the here and now, the tangible, what works now, not might work or should work for a generation or forever.

// ? ??if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years? ? ?//

If we didn't make poor judgements we wouldn't have them to learn from.? Pass the wisdom on to your children.? If they respect you, some of it will stick and guide them.? To return to my hobby horse, I'd imagine that passing wisdom along is more likely to be fruitful if there is a traditional home life in which to do it, an environment in which people are accustomed to talking and listening to one another at length rather than grabbing a snack and running away.

// ? ??I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the?uneducated?striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically? ? ? //

Boy, do I hate that word "educated", almost as much as I hate "trained".

Another hobby horse.? Sigh.

On Apr 28, 2025, at 13:25, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

?

David said: "People instinctively want peace and order and civility."

And Darrell agreed: Yes, the human mind is basically a tool to extrapolate future possibilities?from past learning?in pursuit of extending survival. Since this does not involve a true oracle but rather a best guess, having things neat and orderly best supports prediction. We strive mightily to organize the world so the next moment will not catch us off guard. When it works, it is a more miraculous survival trait than long fangs, horrifying claws or deadly neurotoxins. It is unfortunate that we have also the habit of applying it inappropriately to...well, pretty much everything.

Then David stated based on Darrell's musings about lost ancestral wisdom and chaotic growth: "That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves."

Darrell then rambled?on: This topic, and the human mind in general, fascinates me. I agree that humans will try to frame their world into orderly patterns with predictable consequences. I think this is an almost inevitable behavior because it is necessary to the operation of our survival computer, the human mind. I hope that there is a third?choice, however, aside from "machine order" or spastic chaos. It is possible to use the mind without immersing the operator. Mindfulness and similar tools can allow one to see the distinction. In this scenario, we use social standards constructively to bridge cultures without the desperate need to cram success into every attempt. We recognize individual differences and find gentle ways to account for such.

Referring back to the start of this thread, we could recognize that trying to block or deny the biologically embedded reproductive drives of youth is a doomed effort. We are truthful and we apply teaching from a preadolescent age to acknowledge to the child in advance that when puberty arrives, he will feel a hormonal maelstrom that will push sex and romance to the forefront of his attention. We explain consequences matter-of-factly and evolve a partnership with our children that endures throughout their journey to adulthood. I suppose this sounds like a pipe dream, but if I had had the wisdom?at 19 that I have at 66, I would have used this approach to secure?my then nuclear family and so prevented a lot of pain my children?experienced during?these intervening?years.

My focus during my active Nursing career was on coaching change for clients and patients. I consider this a proactive approach to nurturing intrinsic?motivation to approach constructive?behaviors in a manner that opens the eyes a little more each day. I agree that people will suffer from "No standards = chaos without end" and yet I submit that it is the uneducated striving for order that has gotten the species into the current mess. If folks were trained to look more critically at their own thoughts and emotions rather than buying into the inner narrative as some magical?Me, they would automatically gravitate?toward those constructive?behaviors and so the adoption of more enduring social standards.

D

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 11:54?AM David Smith via <dvdcsmth=[email protected]> wrote:

// ? ??I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.? ? ? ?//

Yep, that is where we are.? Standards make life workable.? No standards = chaos without end.? Standards make nothing "clean and neat", Darrell, only workable.? With no standards, you have the wild west.? That didn't last long.? People instinctively want peace and order and civility.? Constant chaos is very hard on the brain and the body.? Humans are not bacteria.? We have minds and we *will* use them.? The human mind longs for and strives for order.

// ? ??Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host.? ? ? ?//

That's mindless, Darrell.? It's not human.? Humans *will* make order for themselves.? But the order that will be chosen by default is machine order, I'm afraid.? We can do much better, but the current, lazy movement is to follow the technology.? That will give us Brave New World.? I wonder if, once we've got there, we can ever escape.? We may well be killed and eaten by our own tools.

On Apr 27, 2025, at 13:18, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:

?

Okay, I think I see some of it. It may well be that we are viewing the question from different cultural perspectives. My father's sire died when he was young and his mother while?I was very young. My mother's parents divorced before I was born and I only met the original husband when I was a toddler. My maternal grandmother was the most stable link to the previous generations and even through her I know very little of them. My baby sister is fascinated by the family history and has spearheaded an effort to compile it into an organized format. I find it interesting, but not influential to me at all.

I do not see myself as strongly attached to the past, although I do see where such a perspective might lead to social stability. It is true that my family (using them as a personal example) has many parents in each generation, often with maternal household stability linking differing paternal presences. I have attributed this to the rural trend of youthful pregnancies leading to marriages at ages way too young, these leading to divorce or abandonment when the parents finally approach adulthood around 30. I have simply thought of this as the country curse wherein entrenched?Christian mores insist that deflowering of the maiden be quickly patched with "doing the right thing" no matter the well-known future pain it will bring.

Broadened to a wider perspective, I also see U.S. society as a network of many diverse cultures, each with stories and values in a manner similar to mine. The inner city, the Latino population, the Asian neighborhoods, the rural areas, the Native centers and reservations, Suburbia, Ultra-rich Suburbuia, and so on. I feel there are too many people for this diversity to ever coalesce into anything that resembles a single?culture. It is a closely packed sea of colonies and I expect it to continue in the manner that bacterial colonies do: unchecked chaotic?growth until some external factor limits expansion. At that point, the colonies stagnate?and mutate, cannibalize, or simply whither as resources are exhausted. Life is not clean and neat, including cultural growth.

It seems to me that the "social standards" of these human infections will also follow this natural pathway. I had not looked at this until you brought?it up, but I find myself neither surprised nor concerned. Future?generations will not be orderly extensions of ancestral wisdom and values. Life breeds wildly, feeds on nearby life and inevitably changes the host. I do often think back to America's Golden Ages, like the suburban 50's with their Happy Days wholesome nuclear families, wondering if we lost some wholesomeness there. I think we did, but I also believe it was as unavoidable as aging and death (currently are.) Youth seeks change and while maturity?may temper that, adulthood grows from the seeds planted in younger years.

In the end, however, it does not matter as we will continue to colonize our host with riotous change until?some factor sets an effective boundary. Then we will either adapt and grow in a different direction or we will succumb and become extinct. This is not just a physical, biological analogy?but also a social and cultural one.?

D

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 9:41?PM David Smith via <dvdcsmth=[email protected]> wrote:

Lots of kids without ancestors, no?? Multiple fathers and multiple mothers don't make clear lines of succession.? It sounds to me very messy, Darrell.? I suppose it seems fine and normal to you, and that's sort of my point:? it *is* perfectly normal.? The culture is floundering, flopping around, directionless.? In fact, there is no longer a single national culture.? My family includes a couple of gay guys who may or may not be married but have succeeded in buying a child perfectly legally.? And on it goes, with everyone doing his own thing, with commitments always provisional, with all avenues always open, no stop signs.? I know how easy it is to divorce and start over - I'm divorced.? Nothing to it.? Not a bit of social opprobrium.? There are no longer any obstacles to doing anything anyone wants to do.? When's the last time you heard the phrase "social standards"?


> On Apr 27, 2025, at 00:09, Darrell King via <DarrellGKing=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I guess my confusion is that I do not see that families are no longer breeding generation after generation. Or I am misunderstanding. I had two children with my first wife. My present wife has two from her first marriage. Almost everyone in our combined families has children. Many of the children are having children. Most of our friends do as well, and I see hordes of children in the communities I pass through.