Re: Friday Five October 25
?
Arabs are not semitic - they are tribesmen from the Arabian Peninsula.
Semites are traditionally from the Fertile Crescent and areas to the west, not the desert.
Marvin
:
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman= [email protected]> wrote:
?
Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
?
?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste
?
So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??
?
Ed
?
Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
?
On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history.
Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
?
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
?
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:
// ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.
?
I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.
?
Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
?
?
?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Very cool, Celeste! Your ancestral history shares a geographic association with Dracula!?
(This is my level of ancestral focus! You can see why I am never invited to serious discussions on the subject!)
D
On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:23?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've had
genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from. Magyar
history is pretty well known. I'm very close to 100% Magyar. No
slaveholders and no associations with Africa since the initial
migration of humans from Africa.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of
your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern
genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of
African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell
whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since
many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in
Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The
number of ancestors a living human can be said to have
increases exponentially as you go back in time, but
there are several complicating factors that make an
exact count impossible:
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30,
Celeste wrote:
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of
all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at
00:50, Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry
to disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you
understand slavery and discrimination
better than I do, so you feel you have to
tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree
with you?
If my question makes no sense to you
there is an alternative reason other
than I'm not making any sense to
anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how
someone else's ancestors treated another
someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does
not transcend generations. We don't
inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I
expect someone to pay me because their
ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations
should be considered on a societal
level, ?then you should believe
reparations should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into someone
whose ancestor was owned by one of your
ancestors, how much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay that other
person to alleviate the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure-
would $20,000 square things up?
On Tue,
Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the
disadvantages of slavery (destroying
families) and a couple of centuries
of segregation and discrimination
have put black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you skipped
over that because you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check
I would write makes no sense
whatsoever. You keep going back to
feeling guilty even though you don't
want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
The former
slaves are all long gone.? Why
should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of
their great grandparents?? If it
could be proven that your ancestor
had owned a slave, would how large a
check would you personally be
willing to write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024,
Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a
bell that can't be unrung.
The only people who were
ever enslaved and actively
segregated were
African-Americans. If they
have African-American
ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible
to get the subsidy. There is
no blame needed for this to
happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed
Lomas wrote:
How
can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame,
and how far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.?
Second, how do you handle
mixed-race people,
especially those who are
unaware that they are of
mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered
discrimination due to their
religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons,
Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped
people, including
stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and
what about those with
multiple sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you
that this is just a bell
that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't
matter if their
ancestors are alive
or not. When you've
been discriminated
against (as I have,
for example) it is
fair to try to make
up for that
unfairness. Nobody
(except perhaps you)
is condemning those
who are alive now as
being responsible
for that unfairness.
That doesn't mean it
didn't happen and
shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024
5:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't
understand why
anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others.
Africans who
were brought
to America
suffered a lot
of loss and
then weren't
allowed to
even try to
make up for
it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On
10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
I have to say that I have no idea who my ancestors were after about 3 generations back. As an aside, my sister is fascinated?by researching this!
That being?said, my life is certainly influenced by the ancestors of other people being slaves!
:)
On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 8:18?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
David,
Well, I do know that some of my ancestors were slaves. The Vikings
liked their skills, so if they had a chance to capture some
Magyars then they would do so. In any case if I had any ancestors
who were slaveholders (unlikely) then it happened so long ago and
so far away that it certainly has had no effect on my life. Nor
has there been any effects on my life from my ancestors who were
slaves.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 6:20 AM, David Smith
wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The number
of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases
exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several
complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
1. Exponential
Growth in Ancestors: Every
person has two parents, four grandparents, eight
great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of
ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n
generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2
parents (1st generation)
? 4
grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8
great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and
so forth.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, Celeste
wrote:
?
David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David
Smith via wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of
your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50,
Celeste wrote:
?
Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to
disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM,
Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you understand
slavery and discrimination better than I do, so
you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so
that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there
is an alternative reason other than I'm not
making any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone
else's ancestors treated another someone
else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend
generations. We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be
considered on a societal level, ?then you
should believe reparations should be
considered on a personal level. If you ran
into someone whose ancestor was owned by one
of your ancestors, how much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay that other
person to alleviate the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure- would
$20,000 square things up?
On Tue, Oct
29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the
disadvantages of slavery (destroying
families) and a couple of centuries of
segregation and discrimination have put
black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess
you skipped over that because you don't
want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I
would write makes no sense whatsoever. You
keep going back to feeling guilty even
though you don't want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves
are all long gone.? Why should their
descendants deserve compensation for the
suffering of their great grandparents?? If
it could be proven that your ancestor had
owned a slave, would how large a check
would you personally be willing to write
to that slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste
wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The only people
who were ever enslaved and
actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then
that's the group that would be
eligible to get the subsidy. There
is no blame needed for this to
happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be quantified, who is
to blame, and how far back do we
have to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.?
Second, how do you handle
mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they
are of mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and those
who suffered discrimination due to
their religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped
people, including stutters,
those with autism, and
aspergers, and what about those
with multiple sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that
this is just a bell that can't
be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter
if their ancestors are
alive or not. When you've
been discriminated against
(as I have, for example)
it is fair to try to make
up for that unfairness.
Nobody (except perhaps
you) is condemning those
who are alive now as being
responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't
mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified,
though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't understand
why anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages
as others.
Africans who
were brought to
America suffered
a lot of loss
and then weren't
allowed to even
try to make up
for it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
?
Read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain - he spent about two weeks wandering around preZionist Palestine - and didn't think much of it.
Marvin
?
.
"Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't."
?
Russian Jews are descended from the semitic Jews who were driven from their homeland by invaders including the Arabs. Jews do not proselytize as other religions do; you mostly have to be born Jewish. So, although the bloodlines have been diluted through long years of exile in Europe, they are still indigenous to their homeland in the Levant. The Arab invaders who now call themselves "Palestinians" (since 1967) are not.?
?
Pat ?
?
?
------ Original Message ------
From: relomas2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30th 2024, 09:03 PM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five October 25
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
?
?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste
?
So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??
?
Ed
?
On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
?
On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history.
Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
?
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:
// ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!
?
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.
?
I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.
?
Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
?
?
?
?
|
Re: [M-Positive} Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
Pat said: "
The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh.? "
To which Darrell replied: LOL! Awesome, Pat!
.
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
? Neither. It is because she is a nasty, unpleasant, unlikeable person. She was a complete failure as VP, ?has no record of accomplishments or achievements, has a reputation for using sexual favours to get appointments, then handling them badly through laziness and incompetence. She is clearly unqualified and unfit to be President. She is in fact the female version of Justin Trudeau. If anyone is actually considering voting for this horrible woman and her unspeakably vile sidekick, take a good hard look first at what has happened to Canada under the crushing heel of Justin Trudeau's woke jackboots. He is the most detested Prime Minister in Canadian history. Even the youth have turned against him, since he has ruined their lives. His is a government of corruption, authoritarian tyranny, censorship, trampling of human rights (sometimes with horses); massive debt, massive inflation, housing shortages and unaffordable housing; open borders, excessive immigration that has over-run medical services, housing, and jobs; arrogance, complete disregard for what Canadians want, endless scandals and ethics violations. Taxpayers money is tossed out like confetti, with most of it going to unacceptable foreign groups like UNRWA or into Liberal insiders' pockets. Most Canadians are just waiting for an election, heads down and trying to survive until Trudeau and his Liberal government are gone. If you want that in the USA, go ?ahead and vote for Harris. ? ? 2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war? ? Not obviously so far, but hundreds of Hamas terrorists are surrendering so maybe it has had an effect on their morale and motivation. Plus the symbolism is great ?- he died like a cornered rat, killed by the most junior soldier. Just what he deserved. ? 3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions. ? The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh. ? 4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week? ? Joe Biden calling all Trump supporters - more than half of all Americans - garbage was right up there. Donald Trump's response was perfect.
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared? ? Pass ? Pat
?
------ Original Message -------?
From: chapman@...
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...
Sent: Friday, October 18th 2024, 06:12 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
?
?
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war?
3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions.
4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week?'
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared?
?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "M-Positive" group.
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|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Ed,
My ancestors were far, far removed from CE Africa. I've had
genetic testing. I know where my ancestors are from. Magyar
history is pretty well known. I'm very close to 100% Magyar. No
slaveholders and no associations with Africa since the initial
migration of humans from Africa.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 6:52 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of
your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern
genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of
African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell
whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since
many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in
Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The
number of ancestors a living human can be said to have
increases exponentially as you go back in time, but
there are several complicating factors that make an
exact count impossible:
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30,
Celeste wrote:
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of
all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at
00:50, Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry
to disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you
understand slavery and discrimination
better than I do, so you feel you have to
tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree
with you?
If my question makes no sense to you
there is an alternative reason other
than I'm not making any sense to
anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how
someone else's ancestors treated another
someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does
not transcend generations. We don't
inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I
expect someone to pay me because their
ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations
should be considered on a societal
level, ?then you should believe
reparations should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into someone
whose ancestor was owned by one of your
ancestors, how much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay that other
person to alleviate the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure-
would $20,000 square things up?
On Tue,
Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the
disadvantages of slavery (destroying
families) and a couple of centuries
of segregation and discrimination
have put black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you skipped
over that because you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check
I would write makes no sense
whatsoever. You keep going back to
feeling guilty even though you don't
want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
The former
slaves are all long gone.? Why
should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of
their great grandparents?? If it
could be proven that your ancestor
had owned a slave, would how large a
check would you personally be
willing to write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024,
Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a
bell that can't be unrung.
The only people who were
ever enslaved and actively
segregated were
African-Americans. If they
have African-American
ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible
to get the subsidy. There is
no blame needed for this to
happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed
Lomas wrote:
How
can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame,
and how far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.?
Second, how do you handle
mixed-race people,
especially those who are
unaware that they are of
mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered
discrimination due to their
religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons,
Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped
people, including
stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and
what about those with
multiple sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you
that this is just a bell
that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't
matter if their
ancestors are alive
or not. When you've
been discriminated
against (as I have,
for example) it is
fair to try to make
up for that
unfairness. Nobody
(except perhaps you)
is condemning those
who are alive now as
being responsible
for that unfairness.
That doesn't mean it
didn't happen and
shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024
5:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't
understand why
anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others.
Africans who
were brought
to America
suffered a lot
of loss and
then weren't
allowed to
even try to
make up for
it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On
10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
David,
Well, I do know that some of my ancestors were slaves. The Vikings
liked their skills, so if they had a chance to capture some
Magyars then they would do so. In any case if I had any ancestors
who were slaveholders (unlikely) then it happened so long ago and
so far away that it certainly has had no effect on my life. Nor
has there been any effects on my life from my ancestors who were
slaves.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 6:20 AM, David Smith
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't. ?Impossible.
cgpt:
The number
of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases
exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several
complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
1. Exponential
Growth in Ancestors: Every
person has two parents, four grandparents, eight
great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of
ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n
generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2
parents (1st generation)
? 4
grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8
great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and
so forth.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, Celeste
wrote:
?
David,
I know where all of them came from.
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David
Smith via groups.io wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of
your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50,
Celeste wrote:
?
Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to
disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM,
Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you understand
slavery and discrimination better than I do, so
you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so
that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there
is an alternative reason other than I'm not
making any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone
else's ancestors treated another someone
else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend
generations. We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be
considered on a societal level, ?then you
should believe reparations should be
considered on a personal level. If you ran
into someone whose ancestor was owned by one
of your ancestors, how much should you, as a
descendent, be willing to pay that other
person to alleviate the damage that your
slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure- would
$20,000 square things up?
On Tue, Oct
29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the
disadvantages of slavery (destroying
families) and a couple of centuries of
segregation and discrimination have put
black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess
you skipped over that because you don't
want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I
would write makes no sense whatsoever. You
keep going back to feeling guilty even
though you don't want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves
are all long gone.? Why should their
descendants deserve compensation for the
suffering of their great grandparents?? If
it could be proven that your ancestor had
owned a slave, would how large a check
would you personally be willing to write
to that slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste
wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The only people
who were ever enslaved and
actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then
that's the group that would be
eligible to get the subsidy. There
is no blame needed for this to
happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be quantified, who is
to blame, and how far back do we
have to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.?
Second, how do you handle
mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they
are of mixed race?? How about the
Irish, Jews, Italians, and those
who suffered discrimination due to
their religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped
people, including stutters,
those with autism, and
aspergers, and what about those
with multiple sources of
impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that
this is just a bell that can't
be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter
if their ancestors are
alive or not. When you've
been discriminated against
(as I have, for example)
it is fair to try to make
up for that unfairness.
Nobody (except perhaps
you) is condemning those
who are alive now as being
responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't
mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified,
though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is
formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had
the same
advantages as
others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in
the mountain
cold at a
state park in
New Mexico. I
do not condemn
all campers
using the
campground nor
do I assess
whether?society
at large
should be
condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and
did what I
consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I
feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost
puppies!), and
I try to
respect those
around?me.
Even other
drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider
myself as
advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and
the strike of
being from
"the wrong
side of the
tracks." For
the most part,
I have earned
any positive
changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help
from others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I
expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by
the
descendants of
any who abused
my
ancestors--those
people
currently
breathing were
not part of
those
historical
stories. This
is an accepted
fact in a
culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with
today and do
not try to
atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted
for historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed
at such a
lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur
if I can and
approve of
society
stimulating
such resources
for the
benefit of
all. I simply
think we need
to be aware
that there is
(in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into
a manipulative
and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral
lever of
guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's
or 1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for
some
modern-day
effort, you
had better use
a more clearly
and rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity
with whatever
trials your
ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about
their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't understand
why anyone would
be against
helping those
who have been
discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages
as others.
Africans who
were brought to
America suffered
a lot of loss
and then weren't
allowed to even
try to make up
for it. I think
there were
plenty around
who would have
liked to become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024
12:59 PM,
Darrell King
wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
------ Original Message ------
From: dvdcsmth@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 31st 2024, 03:57 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five October 25
? ?
?
On Oct 31, 2024, at 03:04, Pat Trivers via groups.io <pat_trivers@...> wrote:
?
. "Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't." ? Russian Jews are descended from the semitic Jews who were driven from their homeland by invaders including the Arabs. Jews do not proselytize as other religions do; you mostly have to be born Jewish. So, although the bloodlines have been diluted through long years of exile in Europe, they are still indigenous to their homeland in the Levant. The Arab invaders who now call themselves "Palestinians" (since 1967) are not.? ? Pat ?
?
?
------ Original Message ------
From: relomas2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30th 2024, 09:03 PM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five October 25
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman=[email protected]> wrote:
? Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
? ?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste ? So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well?? ? Ed ? On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote: Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
? On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history. Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote: Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
? On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote: // ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?// ? ChatGPT: ? Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent: ? ?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants? Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote: Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
? On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists. What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment? ? Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote: Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
? On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.? ? Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.) ? I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.? ? I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors. ? I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt. ? With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through! ? Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
? Celeste wrote: Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
? On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote: I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment. ? I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions! ? D On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote: Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
? On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly?? ? Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins. ? I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people. ? Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..? ? Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
? ?
? ?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 31, 2024, at 03:04, Pat Trivers via groups.io <pat_trivers@...> wrote:
? . "Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't." ? Russian Jews are descended from the semitic Jews who were driven from their homeland by invaders including the Arabs. Jews do not proselytize as other religions do; you mostly have to be born Jewish. So, although the bloodlines have been diluted through long years of exile in Europe, they are still indigenous to their homeland in the Levant. The Arab invaders who now call themselves "Palestinians" (since 1967) are not.? ? Pat ?
?
?
------ Original Message ------
From: relomas2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30th 2024, 09:03 PM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five October 25
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman=[email protected]> wrote:
? Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
? ?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste ? So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well?? ? Ed ? On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote: Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
? On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history. Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote: Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
? On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote: // ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?// ? ChatGPT: ? Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent: ? ?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants? Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote: Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
? On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists. What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment? ? Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote: Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
? On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.? ? Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.) ? I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.? ? I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors. ? I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt. ? With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through! ? Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
? Celeste wrote: Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
? On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote: I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment. ? I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions! ? D On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote: Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
? On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly?? ? Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins. ? I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people. ? Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..? ? Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
? ?
? ?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
. "Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't." ? Russian Jews are descended from the semitic Jews who were driven from their homeland by invaders including the Arabs. Jews do not proselytize as other religions do; you mostly have to be born Jewish. So, although the bloodlines have been diluted through long years of exile in Europe, they are still indigenous to their homeland in the Levant. The Arab invaders who now call themselves "Palestinians" (since 1967) are not.? ? Pat ?
?
?
------ Original Message ------
From: relomas2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30th 2024, 09:03 PM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five October 25
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman=[email protected]> wrote:
? Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
? ?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste ? So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well?? ? Ed ? On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote: Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
? On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history. Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote: Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
? On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote: // ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?// ? ChatGPT: ? Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent: ? ?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants? Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote: Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
? On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote: How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists. What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment? ? Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote: Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
? On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.? ? Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.) ? I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.? ? I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors. ? I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt. ? With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through! ? Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
? Celeste wrote: Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
? On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote: I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment. ? I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions! ? D On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote: Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
? On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote: And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly?? ? Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins. ? I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people. ? Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..? ? Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
? ?
? ?
|
Re: Friday Five Octgber 18
.
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
? Neither. It is because she is a nasty, unpleasant, unlikeable person. She was a complete failure as VP, ?has no record of accomplishments or achievements, has a reputation for using sexual favours to get appointments, then handling them badly through laziness and incompetence. She is clearly unqualified and unfit to be President. She is in fact the female version of Justin Trudeau. If anyone is actually considering voting for this horrible woman and her unspeakably vile sidekick, take a good hard look first at what has happened to Canada under the crushing heel of Justin Trudeau's woke jackboots. He is the most detested Prime Minister in Canadian history. Even the youth have turned against him, since he has ruined their lives. His is a government of corruption, authoritarian tyranny, censorship, trampling of human rights (sometimes with horses); massive debt, massive inflation, housing shortages and unaffordable housing; open borders, excessive immigration that has over-run medical services, housing, and jobs; arrogance, complete disregard for what Canadians want, endless scandals and ethics violations. Taxpayers money is tossed out like confetti, with most of it going to unacceptable foreign groups like UNRWA or into Liberal insiders' pockets. Most Canadians are just waiting for an election, heads down and trying to survive until Trudeau and his Liberal government are gone. If you want that in the USA, go ?ahead and vote for Harris. ? ? 2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war? ? Not obviously so far, but hundreds of Hamas terrorists are surrendering so maybe it has had an effect on their morale and motivation. Plus the symbolism is great ?- he died like a cornered rat, killed by the most junior soldier. Just what he deserved. ? 3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions. ? The earth ways nothing, obviously. It is floating in space, where everyone knows that everything is weightless. Duh. ? 4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week? ? Joe Biden calling all Trump supporters - more than half of all Americans - garbage was right up there. Donald Trump's response was perfect.
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared? ? Pass ? Pat
?
------ Original Message -------?
From: chapman@...
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; m-scholars-and-scribes@...
Sent: Friday, October 18th 2024, 06:12 AM
Subject: Re: [M-Powered] Friday Five Octgber 18
?
?
1.? Is the antipathy to Harris raical, sexual, both or neither?
2.? Will the death of Silwar (the leader of Hamas in Gaze) effect the current war?
3. A friend asked me hose much the earth weighs.? Using only pen and paper calculate that - and state your assumptions.
4.? what is the strangest headline you have seen this week?'
5.? what one question would you ask your closest friend if you dared?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Arabs, including Palestinians of all religions and Jews indigenous to the Levant, are all semitic.? Russian Jews aren't. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, mrvnchpmn via <chapman= [email protected]> wrote:
?
Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
?
?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste
?
So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??
?
Ed
?
Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
?
On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history.
Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
?
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
?
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:
// ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.
?
I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.
?
Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
?
Actually with regard to Hamas in Gaza, the Isreailis have been in that part of the world melleniia longer than the Arabs.
And I have met people both Jewish and Muslim from that part of the world and the consensus is that the part of the area developed by the Jews after 1900 is massively better of than it was before.
If you want to know what that area was like in the 19th century - read The Innocents Abroad by Mark Twain.
Marvin
?
?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."
Celeste
?
So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??
?
Ed
?
On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
?
On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou should brush up on American history.
Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think there were?
?
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
?
You don't know what you are talking about.? There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant to that fact?
?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:
// ??The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human slavery has been a widespread and tragic part of human history, practiced in different forms across civilizations for thousands of years. Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and regions where slavery was prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.
?
I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.
?
Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
?"Indigenous people were entitled to do anything they saw fit to do with invaders."Celeste
So the Indians who took over 100 white people from Deerfield, MA in the early 1700s had the right to do so, since the settlers had been in the region less than 100 years?? How is that different from the Palestinians who took about 100 Jewish hostages from Israel last year?? May they also "do anything they saw fit to do with those invaders," too, since the non-Arabic European settlers in the Levant have been there for about 100 years as well??
Ed
On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:35?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Ed,
Then cite a reputable source for that. Still, it has nothing to do
with the topic. Indigenous people were entitled to do anything
they saw fit to do with invaders.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 4:59 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
Celeste- There were white slaves taken by Indians.? Perhaps uou
should brush up on American history.
Ed
On Tuesday, October 29, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Marvin,
There were no white slaves in the U.S. Why do you think
there were?
On 10/29/2024 6:08 AM, Marvin wrote:
?
You don't know what you are talking about.?
There were white slaves, and even black slave owners.
As well as slaves held by indigenous people.
Celeste wrote:
David,
They were the only group of people enslaved in the
U.S. Why do you want to quote something irrelevant
to that fact?
On 10/27/2024 12:55 PM, David Smith wrote:
// ??The
only people who were ever enslaved and actively
segregated were African-Americans.?//
?
ChatGPT:
?
Human
slavery has been a widespread and tragic part
of human history, practiced in different forms
across civilizations for thousands of years.
Here¡¯s a brief sketch of key periods and
regions where slavery was prominent:
?
?The former slaves are all long
gone.? Why should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could be proven that your
ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a
check would you personally be willing to write
to that slave's descendants?
Ed
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The only people who
were ever enslaved and actively
segregated were African-Americans. If
they have African-American ancestry
then that's the group that would be
eligible to get the subsidy. There is
no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be quantified, who is to
blame, and how far back do we have to
go?? Slavery in the USA ended five
generations ago.? Second, how do you
handle mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they are of
mixed race?? How about the Irish,
Jews, Italians, and those who suffered
discrimination due to their religious
or political beliefs, like Mormons,
Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and what
about those with multiple sources of
impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this
is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if
their ancestors are alive or
not. When you've been
discriminated against (as I
have, for example) it is fair
to try to make up for that
unfairness. Nobody (except
perhaps you) is condemning
those who are alive now as
being responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't mean
it didn't happen and shouldn't
be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment.
Your reference to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages as
others..." would,
in my mind,
address people
alive now?who
are being treated
in a manner at
odds with my
values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in the
mountain cold at a
state park in New
Mexico. I do not
condemn all
campers using the
campground nor do
I assess
whether?society at
large should be
condemned?for
animal abuse since
I do not know if
all members of
society were
involved in losing
or abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and did
what I consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use the
male pronouns I
was taught apply
to me in grade
school English
classes. I feel
protective of
women and children
(and lost
puppies!), and I
try to respect
those around?me.
Even other
drivers!? Despite
all this, I do not
consider myself as
advantaged. I grew
up very poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and the
strike of being
from "the wrong
side of the
tracks." For the
most part, I have
earned any
positive changes I
benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge having
help from others
(including social
breaks) whenever
such benefited
me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages, nor
do I expect to be
lifted up or
reimbursed by the
descendants of any
who abused my
ancestors--those
people currently
breathing were not
part of those
historical
stories. This is
an accepted fact
in a culture where
time travel?or
common extreme
longevity are not
likely truths.
Basically, I deal
with today and do
not try to
atone?for the sins
of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted for
historic
mistreatment, have
the potential to
become successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it in
software
despite?not
initially
believing?I could
succeed at such a
lofty ambition. I
am fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if I
can and approve of
society
stimulating such
resources for the
benefit of all. I
simply think we
need to be aware
that there is (in
my judgement) an
ongoing effort to
twist the story of
historic treatment
into a
manipulative and
demonstrably
logically invalid
behavioral lever
of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or
1800's and
therefore, if the
figurative and
generic 'you' want
my support for
some modern-day
effort, you had
better use a more
clearly and
rationally
expressed argument
than that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity with
whatever trials
your ancestors
went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty
about their
mistreatment either.
I just don't
understand why
anyone would be
against helping
those who have been
discriminated
against and haven't
had the same
advantages as
others. Africans who
were brought to
America suffered a
lot of loss and then
weren't allowed to
even try to make up
for it. I think
there were plenty
around who would
have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024
12:59 PM, Darrell
King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
?
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism
in any group
and so I am
wary of this
constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
?
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
?
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
?
Well said.
I know from a book on the history of Texas that I had a direct ancestor who fought at the Battle of San Jacinto with Sam Houston that beat Santa Ana and freed Texas from Mexico.? And I I strongly suspect that I have a first cousin eight times removed who was one of the five most fear gunfighters in Texas history - but also the first victim of being shot with a double action revolver - by an diiot who didint' neet do cockhis weapon.
Marvin
?
Well, this actually simplifies my world immensely! My ancestors were involved in all the good and all the bad that has ever happened. Six stages of separation. Everyone on this list and everyone?beyond is my family!!!?
?
:)
?
By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.
?
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered= [email protected]> wrote:
?
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
?
cgpt:
?
The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
?
1. Exponential Growth in Ancestors: Every person has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2 parents (1st generation)
? 4 grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8 great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and so forth.
2. Overlapping or ¡°Collapsing¡± Pedigree: At some point, due to population sizes and historical trends (like endogamy or small, isolated populations), the number of theoretical ancestors exceeds the total human population of a given time period. This means many of your ancestors are repeated in your family tree. In other words, you share common ancestors with yourself many times over. This phenomenon, called ¡°pedigree collapse,¡± results from ancestors marrying distant relatives.
3. Population Bottlenecks: Events like pandemics, migrations, or other factors reduce the number of people in a population, limiting the pool of ancestors at certain points in history.
4. Finite Human History: Homo sapiens as a species is estimated to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. While humans had many generations, the total population size was much smaller for most of human history, especially prior to the advent of agriculture around 10,000 years ago.
?
A Simplified Example
?
If we consider 25 years as an average generational span:
?
? 10 generations back (250 years ago) would give you 1,024 ancestors.
? 20 generations back (500 years ago) would theoretically give 1,048,576 ancestors.
? However, 30 generations back (~750 years) would give over 1 billion theoretical ancestors, which exceeds the global population at that time, indicating heavy pedigree collapse.
?
In summary, while each individual technically has an exponentially increasing number of ancestors going back in time, overlapping pedigrees mean that the actual number of distinct ancestors is far smaller than what pure mathematics would suggest, especially for more distant generations.
?
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, a1thighmaster via <thighmaster=[email protected]> wrote:
?
? David,
I know where all of them came from.
Aloha,
Celeste
?
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith via wrote:
?
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste wrote:
?
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint you.
?
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you understand slavery and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?
?
If my question makes no sense to you there is an alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense to anyone.?
?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
?
If you believe that reparations should be considered on a societal level, ?then you should believe reparations should be considered on a personal level. If you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000 square things up?
?
On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages of slavery (destroying families) and a couple of centuries of segregation and discrimination have put black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that because you don't want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit it.
?
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are all long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve compensation for the suffering of their great grandparents?? If it could be proven that your ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check would you personally be willing to write to that slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be unrung. The only people who were ever enslaved and actively segregated were African-Americans. If they have African-American ancestry then that's the group that would be eligible to get the subsidy. There is no blame needed for this to happen.
?
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be quantified, who is to blame, and how far back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA ended five generations ago.? Second, how do you handle mixed-race people, especially those who are unaware that they are of mixed race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and those who suffered discrimination due to their religious or political beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people, including stutters, those with autism, and aspergers, and what about those with multiple sources of impairment?
?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their ancestors are alive or not. When you've been discriminated against (as I have, for example) it is fair to try to make up for that unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps you) is condemning those who are alive now as being responsible for that unfairness. That doesn't mean it didn't happen and shouldn't be rectified, though.
?
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as it is formatted as verifiable and objectively present-moment. Your reference to "...discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others..." would, in my mind, address people alive now?who are being treated in a manner at odds with my values.?
?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a small dog shivering in the mountain cold at a state park in New Mexico. I do not condemn all campers using the campground nor do I assess whether?society at large should be condemned?for animal abuse since I do not know if all members of society were involved in losing or abandoning the pup. I simply rescued?the critter?and did what I consider proper (he is safely with a protective advocate now.)
?
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S. citizen. I use the male pronouns I was taught apply to me in grade school English classes. I feel protective of women and children (and lost puppies!), and I try to respect those around?me. Even other drivers!? Despite all this, I do not consider myself as advantaged. I grew up very poor in a backwoods rural?community with social anxiety, bullying?and the strike of being from "the wrong side of the tracks." For the most part, I have earned any positive changes I benefit from, although?I acknowledge having help from others (including social breaks) whenever such benefited me.?
?
I did not get any free rides due to my disadvantages, nor do I expect to be lifted up or reimbursed by the descendants of any who abused my ancestors--those people currently breathing were not part of those historical stories. This is an accepted fact in a culture where time travel?or common extreme longevity are not likely truths. Basically, I deal with today and do not try to atone?for the sins of my ancestors.
?
I agree that it is likely that many citizens, regardless of belonging to groups noted for historic mistreatment, have the potential to become successful entrepreneurs. Hell, I did it in software despite?not initially believing?I could succeed at such a lofty ambition. I am fine with supporting an entrepreneur if I can and approve of society stimulating such resources for the benefit of all. I simply think we need to be aware that there is (in my judgement) an ongoing effort to twist the story of historic treatment into a manipulative and demonstrably logically invalid behavioral lever of guilt.
?
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone in the 1700's or 1800's and therefore, if the figurative and generic 'you' want my support for some modern-day effort, you had better use a more clearly and rationally expressed argument than that of emphasizing my nonexistent complicity with whatever trials your ancestors went through!
?
Thank you for the sensible discussion, Celeste!
?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about their mistreatment either. I just don't understand why anyone would be against helping those who have been discriminated against and haven't had the same advantages as others. Africans who were brought to America suffered a lot of loss and then weren't allowed to even try to make up for it. I think there were plenty around who would have liked to become entrepreneurs.
?
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM, Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of helping the descendants?of people who were mistreated in the U.S. before your parents arrived, Celeste. Therein lies my quibble: we have been conditioned to ignore this distinction as though I was port?of that mistreatment. I was not and I hope that even if I had been alive and adult back in that day, I would?not have contributed to mistreatment.
?
I often help people on an individual basis. I share frequently when able. This?is not out of any sense of guilt or responsibility?related to the behaviors of my social?or biological ancestors, however, but rather?originates on my personal?values on the subject. I admit to feeling a little put out when somebody insists I owe?some person or group because some predecessor?acted a certain way. Even if I disapprove of some historical behavior, such as the treatment uf North American indigenous people by European immigrants, I am still not personally liable for those immigrants' behaviors.
Doesn't mean I am against helping them or anyone. Just means that?rationally I may deal with the fallout (karma?) from history but I do not feel guilty about someone else's actions!
?
D
?
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response sounds incredibly bigoted. My ancestors weren't even in the U.S. until the 20th century and I'm still in favor of helping peoples who were mistreated in the U.S. before they arrived. And, of course, that includes the indigenous peoples. You, however, I am disappointed in.
?
On 10/26/2024 7:27 AM, Darrell King wrote:
And Darrell wondered: I am curious how many eligible?black entrepreneurs were around during the "slavery and discrimination eras" to lose time thusly??
?
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine that the sins of the fathers?are carried to the sons! While I do believe in continuous improvement?on a social level, I consider myself as bearing absolutely no personal responsibility for any alleged sins my forefathers may have been involved?in! I certainly do not oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant effort to make amends?for those sins to a generation that had no exposure to said sins.
?
I suppose social assistance for deserving entrepreneurs no matter ethnicity or other social factors. Base such support?on the validity and value of the business plan, sure. I suppose I lean rightward on the idea that I should make up for the idea that a given population deserves to be lifted out of their woes simply because of historical mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people decently as part of my personal morality, but I am not responsible for how others have treated people.
?
Having vented all that, I would support forgivable loans for ideas assessed solely?on their business plans and ongoing monitoring of their use without consideration of ethnicity or similar?'disadvantaged' factoring..?
?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable $20,000 loans to black men the equivalent of shiny beads to Indians??with "No, not in any way. It's for black entrepreneurs. It gives them a chance to make up for lost time during the slavery and discrimination eras."
?
?
?
?
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Well, this actually simplifies my world immensely! My ancestors were involved in all the good and all the bad that has ever happened. Six stages of separation. Everyone on this list and everyone?beyond is my family!!!?
:)
By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered= [email protected]> wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
1. Exponential Growth in Ancestors: Every person has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2 parents (1st generation)
? 4 grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8 great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and so forth.
2. Overlapping or ¡°Collapsing¡± Pedigree: At some point, due to population sizes and historical trends (like endogamy or small, isolated populations), the number of theoretical ancestors exceeds the total human population of a given time period. This means many of your ancestors are repeated in your family tree. In other words, you share common ancestors with yourself many times over. This phenomenon, called ¡°pedigree collapse,¡± results from ancestors marrying distant relatives.
3. Population Bottlenecks: Events like pandemics, migrations, or other factors reduce the number of people in a population, limiting the pool of ancestors at certain points in history.
4. Finite Human History: Homo sapiens as a species is estimated to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. While humans had many generations, the total population size was much smaller for most of human history, especially prior to the advent of agriculture around 10,000 years ago.
A Simplified Example
If we consider 25 years as an average generational span:
? 10 generations back (250 years ago) would give you 1,024 ancestors.
? 20 generations back (500 years ago) would theoretically give 1,048,576 ancestors.
? However, 30 generations back (~750 years) would give over 1 billion theoretical ancestors, which exceeds the global population at that time, indicating heavy pedigree collapse.
In summary, while each individual technically has an exponentially increasing number of ancestors going back in time, overlapping pedigrees mean that the actual number of distinct ancestors is far smaller than what pure mathematics would suggest, especially for more distant generations. ?
David,
I know where all of them came from.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith via
wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your
ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste
wrote:
?
Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint
you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
So you are sure that you understand slavery
and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have
to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is an
alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense
to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's
ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.?
Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit
guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be considered
on a societal level, ?then you should believe
reparations should be considered on a personal level. If
you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of
your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be
willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage
that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at
8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages of
slavery (destroying families) and a couple of
centuries of segregation and discrimination have put
black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you
skipped over that because you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write
makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to
feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit
it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are all
long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could be proven that your
ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check
would you personally be willing to write to that
slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be
unrung. The only people who were ever
enslaved and actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed for this
to happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame, and how far
back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.? Second, how do
you handle mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they are of mixed
race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians,
and those who suffered discrimination due to
their religious or political beliefs, like
Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with autism, and
aspergers, and what about those with
multiple sources of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is
just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their
ancestors are alive or not. When
you've been discriminated against
(as I have, for example) it is fair
to try to make up for that
unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps
you) is condemning those who are
alive now as being responsible for
that unfairness. That doesn't mean
it didn't happen and shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment. Your
reference to
"...discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others..." would, in my
mind, address people
alive now?who
are being treated in a
manner at odds with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog shivering in
the mountain cold at a
state park in New
Mexico. I do not condemn
all campers using the
campground nor do I
assess whether?society
at large should be
condemned?for animal
abuse since I do not
know if all members of
society were involved in
losing or abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the critter?and
did what I consider
proper (he is safely
with a protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use the male
pronouns I was taught
apply to me in grade
school English classes.
I feel protective of
women and children (and
lost puppies!), and I
try to respect those
around?me. Even other
drivers!? Despite all
this, I do not consider
myself as advantaged. I
grew up very poor in a
backwoods
rural?community with
social anxiety,
bullying?and the strike
of being from "the wrong
side of the tracks." For
the most part, I have
earned any positive
changes I benefit from,
although?I acknowledge
having help from others
(including social
breaks) whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages, nor do I
expect to be lifted up
or reimbursed by the
descendants of any who
abused my
ancestors--those people
currently breathing were
not part of those
historical stories. This
is an accepted fact in a
culture where time
travel?or common extreme
longevity are not likely
truths. Basically, I
deal with today and do
not try to atone?for the
sins of my ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of belonging
to groups noted for
historic mistreatment,
have the potential to
become successful
entrepreneurs. Hell, I
did it in software
despite?not initially
believing?I could
succeed at such a lofty
ambition. I am fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society
stimulating such
resources for the
benefit of all. I simply
think we need to be
aware that there is (in
my judgement) an ongoing
effort to twist the
story of historic
treatment into a
manipulative and
demonstrably logically
invalid behavioral lever
of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or 1800's
and therefore, if the
figurative and generic
'you' want my support
for some modern-day
effort, you had better
use a more clearly and
rationally expressed
argument than that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity
with whatever trials
your ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about
their mistreatment either.
I just don't understand
why anyone would be
against helping those who
have been discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others. Africans who were
brought to America
suffered a lot of loss and
then weren't allowed to
even try to make up for
it. I think there were
plenty around who would
have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM,
Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On
Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at
11:56?AM Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even in
the U.S. until
the 20th century
and I'm still in
favor of helping
peoples who were
mistreated in
the U.S. before
they arrived.
And, of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024
7:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
By that calculation, you'd have to know the genetic composition of your 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.? Modern genetic testing might reveal whether any of them had some trace of African ancestry, but you'd have to know their history to tell whether any of them were enslaved or were slave traders, since many African slaves were bought from black slave traders in Africa.
On Wednesday, October 30, 2024, David Smith via <david.smith.mpowered= [email protected]> wrote:
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't.? Impossible.
cgpt:
The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
1. Exponential Growth in Ancestors: Every person has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2 parents (1st generation)
? 4 grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8 great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and so forth.
2. Overlapping or ¡°Collapsing¡± Pedigree: At some point, due to population sizes and historical trends (like endogamy or small, isolated populations), the number of theoretical ancestors exceeds the total human population of a given time period. This means many of your ancestors are repeated in your family tree. In other words, you share common ancestors with yourself many times over. This phenomenon, called ¡°pedigree collapse,¡± results from ancestors marrying distant relatives.
3. Population Bottlenecks: Events like pandemics, migrations, or other factors reduce the number of people in a population, limiting the pool of ancestors at certain points in history.
4. Finite Human History: Homo sapiens as a species is estimated to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. While humans had many generations, the total population size was much smaller for most of human history, especially prior to the advent of agriculture around 10,000 years ago.
A Simplified Example
If we consider 25 years as an average generational span:
? 10 generations back (250 years ago) would give you 1,024 ancestors.
? 20 generations back (500 years ago) would theoretically give 1,048,576 ancestors.
? However, 30 generations back (~750 years) would give over 1 billion theoretical ancestors, which exceeds the global population at that time, indicating heavy pedigree collapse.
In summary, while each individual technically has an exponentially increasing number of ancestors going back in time, overlapping pedigrees mean that the actual number of distinct ancestors is far smaller than what pure mathematics would suggest, especially for more distant generations. ?
David,
I know where all of them came from.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith via
wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your
ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste
wrote:
?
Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint
you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
So you are sure that you understand slavery
and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have
to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is an
alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense
to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's
ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.?
Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit
guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be considered
on a societal level, ?then you should believe
reparations should be considered on a personal level. If
you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of
your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be
willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage
that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at
8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages of
slavery (destroying families) and a couple of
centuries of segregation and discrimination have put
black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you
skipped over that because you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write
makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to
feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit
it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are all
long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could be proven that your
ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check
would you personally be willing to write to that
slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be
unrung. The only people who were ever
enslaved and actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed for this
to happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame, and how far
back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.? Second, how do
you handle mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they are of mixed
race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians,
and those who suffered discrimination due to
their religious or political beliefs, like
Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with autism, and
aspergers, and what about those with
multiple sources of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is
just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their
ancestors are alive or not. When
you've been discriminated against
(as I have, for example) it is fair
to try to make up for that
unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps
you) is condemning those who are
alive now as being responsible for
that unfairness. That doesn't mean
it didn't happen and shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment. Your
reference to
"...discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others..." would, in my
mind, address people
alive now?who
are being treated in a
manner at odds with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog shivering in
the mountain cold at a
state park in New
Mexico. I do not condemn
all campers using the
campground nor do I
assess whether?society
at large should be
condemned?for animal
abuse since I do not
know if all members of
society were involved in
losing or abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the critter?and
did what I consider
proper (he is safely
with a protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use the male
pronouns I was taught
apply to me in grade
school English classes.
I feel protective of
women and children (and
lost puppies!), and I
try to respect those
around?me. Even other
drivers!? Despite all
this, I do not consider
myself as advantaged. I
grew up very poor in a
backwoods
rural?community with
social anxiety,
bullying?and the strike
of being from "the wrong
side of the tracks." For
the most part, I have
earned any positive
changes I benefit from,
although?I acknowledge
having help from others
(including social
breaks) whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages, nor do I
expect to be lifted up
or reimbursed by the
descendants of any who
abused my
ancestors--those people
currently breathing were
not part of those
historical stories. This
is an accepted fact in a
culture where time
travel?or common extreme
longevity are not likely
truths. Basically, I
deal with today and do
not try to atone?for the
sins of my ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of belonging
to groups noted for
historic mistreatment,
have the potential to
become successful
entrepreneurs. Hell, I
did it in software
despite?not initially
believing?I could
succeed at such a lofty
ambition. I am fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society
stimulating such
resources for the
benefit of all. I simply
think we need to be
aware that there is (in
my judgement) an ongoing
effort to twist the
story of historic
treatment into a
manipulative and
demonstrably logically
invalid behavioral lever
of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or 1800's
and therefore, if the
figurative and generic
'you' want my support
for some modern-day
effort, you had better
use a more clearly and
rationally expressed
argument than that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity
with whatever trials
your ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about
their mistreatment either.
I just don't understand
why anyone would be
against helping those who
have been discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others. Africans who were
brought to America
suffered a lot of loss and
then weren't allowed to
even try to make up for
it. I think there were
plenty around who would
have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM,
Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On
Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at
11:56?AM Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even in
the U.S. until
the 20th century
and I'm still in
favor of helping
peoples who were
mistreated in
the U.S. before
they arrived.
And, of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024
7:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
With respect, Celeste, no, you don't. ?Impossible.
cgpt:
The number of ancestors a living human can be said to have increases exponentially as you go back in time, but there are several complicating factors that make an exact count impossible:
1. Exponential Growth in Ancestors: Every person has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. Mathematically, the number of ancestors doubles with each generation. In theory, after n generations, you would have 2^n ancestors. For example:
? 2 parents (1st generation)
? 4 grandparents (2nd generation)
? 8 great-grandparents (3rd generation)
? and so forth.
2. Overlapping or ¡°Collapsing¡± Pedigree: At some point, due to population sizes and historical trends (like endogamy or small, isolated populations), the number of theoretical ancestors exceeds the total human population of a given time period. This means many of your ancestors are repeated in your family tree. In other words, you share common ancestors with yourself many times over. This phenomenon, called ¡°pedigree collapse,¡± results from ancestors marrying distant relatives.
3. Population Bottlenecks: Events like pandemics, migrations, or other factors reduce the number of people in a population, limiting the pool of ancestors at certain points in history.
4. Finite Human History: Homo sapiens as a species is estimated to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. While humans had many generations, the total population size was much smaller for most of human history, especially prior to the advent of agriculture around 10,000 years ago.
A Simplified Example
If we consider 25 years as an average generational span:
? 10 generations back (250 years ago) would give you 1,024 ancestors.
? 20 generations back (500 years ago) would theoretically give 1,048,576 ancestors.
? However, 30 generations back (~750 years) would give over 1 billion theoretical ancestors, which exceeds the global population at that time, indicating heavy pedigree collapse.
In summary, while each individual technically has an exponentially increasing number of ancestors going back in time, overlapping pedigrees mean that the actual number of distinct ancestors is far smaller than what pure mathematics would suggest, especially for more distant generations.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 30, 2024, at 11:30, a1thighmaster via groups.io <thighmaster@...> wrote:
?
David,
I know where all of them came from.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/29/2024 6:59 PM, David Smith via
groups.io wrote:
Celeste, surely you do not know the identity of all of your
ancestors.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50, Celeste
wrote:
?
Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to disappoint
you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
So you are sure that you understand slavery
and discrimination better than I do, so you feel you have
to tutor me on the basics so that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is an
alternative reason other than I'm not making any sense
to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone else's
ancestors treated another someone else's ancestors.?
Guilt does not transcend generations. We don't inherit
guilt or obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be considered
on a societal level, ?then you should believe
reparations should be considered on a personal level. If
you ran into someone whose ancestor was owned by one of
your ancestors, how much should you, as a descendent, be
willing to pay that other person to alleviate the damage
that your slave-owning ancestor did to that other
person?? Just give me a rough figure- would $20,000
square things up?
On Tue, Oct 29, 2024 at
8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages of
slavery (destroying families) and a couple of
centuries of segregation and discrimination have put
black Americans at a disadvantage. I guess you
skipped over that because you don't want to
acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would write
makes no sense whatsoever. You keep going back to
feeling guilty even though you don't want to admit
it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are all
long gone.? Why should their descendants deserve
compensation for the suffering of their great
grandparents?? If it could be proven that your
ancestor had owned a slave, would how large a check
would you personally be willing to write to that
slave's descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that can't be
unrung. The only people who were ever
enslaved and actively segregated were
African-Americans. If they have
African-American ancestry then that's the
group that would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed for this
to happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
How can unfairness be
quantified, who is to blame, and how far
back do we have to go?? Slavery in the USA
ended five generations ago.? Second, how do
you handle mixed-race people, especially
those who are unaware that they are of mixed
race?? How about the Irish, Jews, Italians,
and those who suffered discrimination due to
their religious or political beliefs, like
Mormons, Huguenots, and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with autism, and
aspergers, and what about those with
multiple sources of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that this is
just a bell that can't be unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if their
ancestors are alive or not. When
you've been discriminated against
(as I have, for example) it is fair
to try to make up for that
unfairness. Nobody (except perhaps
you) is condemning those who are
alive now as being responsible for
that unfairness. That doesn't mean
it didn't happen and shouldn't be
rectified, though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted as
verifiable and
objectively
present-moment. Your
reference to
"...discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others..." would, in my
mind, address people
alive now?who
are being treated in a
manner at odds with my
values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog shivering in
the mountain cold at a
state park in New
Mexico. I do not condemn
all campers using the
campground nor do I
assess whether?society
at large should be
condemned?for animal
abuse since I do not
know if all members of
society were involved in
losing or abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the critter?and
did what I consider
proper (he is safely
with a protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use the male
pronouns I was taught
apply to me in grade
school English classes.
I feel protective of
women and children (and
lost puppies!), and I
try to respect those
around?me. Even other
drivers!? Despite all
this, I do not consider
myself as advantaged. I
grew up very poor in a
backwoods
rural?community with
social anxiety,
bullying?and the strike
of being from "the wrong
side of the tracks." For
the most part, I have
earned any positive
changes I benefit from,
although?I acknowledge
having help from others
(including social
breaks) whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages, nor do I
expect to be lifted up
or reimbursed by the
descendants of any who
abused my
ancestors--those people
currently breathing were
not part of those
historical stories. This
is an accepted fact in a
culture where time
travel?or common extreme
longevity are not likely
truths. Basically, I
deal with today and do
not try to atone?for the
sins of my ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of belonging
to groups noted for
historic mistreatment,
have the potential to
become successful
entrepreneurs. Hell, I
did it in software
despite?not initially
believing?I could
succeed at such a lofty
ambition. I am fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if I can
and approve of society
stimulating such
resources for the
benefit of all. I simply
think we need to be
aware that there is (in
my judgement) an ongoing
effort to twist the
story of historic
treatment into a
manipulative and
demonstrably logically
invalid behavioral lever
of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or 1800's
and therefore, if the
figurative and generic
'you' want my support
for some modern-day
effort, you had better
use a more clearly and
rationally expressed
argument than that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent complicity
with whatever trials
your ancestors went
through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel guilty about
their mistreatment either.
I just don't understand
why anyone would be
against helping those who
have been discriminated
against and haven't had
the same advantages as
others. Africans who were
brought to America
suffered a lot of loss and
then weren't allowed to
even try to make up for
it. I think there were
plenty around who would
have liked to become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024 12:59 PM,
Darrell King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On
Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at
11:56?AM Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even in
the U.S. until
the 20th century
and I'm still in
favor of helping
peoples who were
mistreated in
the U.S. before
they arrived.
And, of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed in.
On 10/26/2024
7:27 AM, Darrell
King wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Celeste, I was just kind of exploring my own peeve a little, I guess. Sorry about being so verbose. I may be justifying it, but my own perspective was that I was trying to put into words my feelings.?
I applaud your values, although I was focused on?Kamala's?motivations when thinking about the political aspects and emotional appeal of the funding proposal. While there is certainly an argument to be made for it being?a morally admirable effort, I feel it is using the social backstory as political leverage.
D
On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 8:39?AM a1thighmaster via <thighmaster= [email protected]> wrote:
Darrell,
Wow! So much blah, blah, blah to try to justify your position. I
certainly don't see helping black entrepreneurs in the U.S. as
reparations. Nor do I see it as emotionally or politically
motivated. It's just the right thing to do.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 5:00 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
I think of historical
events as contributing factors from which karma, or
consequences, can be observed in the present day. No
phenomena arises from only one factor, so any problem we
tackle will have multiple contributing factors that are
defined by the human minds pointing at them.
Slavery is a word (concept, symbol) that can be pasted
onto many situations, including the
institutionalized?slavery so famous in U.S.?history, the
experience of Irish indentured servants, the
subjected?status a females in much of U.S.?history and the
experience of some European captives by
indigenous?American tribe members. Not everyone will agree
with every use of the word, but that is inherent in our
use of?symbols.
Stepping?back from
emotional social issues, any mistreatment of one
human?being by another, whether singular or group, is
likely to influence events downstream from its happening.
The impact of the slavery period may have influenced (and
been influenced by) the perspectives of social groups of
that time and then all these factors influenced the
evolution of today's class and racially-related issues. To
distill the problem(s) into one cause and then drive
solutions from that oversimplification?is a thought
process bound to result in fallacies. Indeed, I feel from
my personal?experience that many 'disadvantaged' people
likely contribute to?their own ongoing misfortunes?by
buying into the stereotype applied to them.
This is just my opinion,
but I feel that solutions are generally more effective
when they focus on how?to improve rather than on causes.
The latter can be useful, of course, but in this case as
an example, the original?question asked if the forgivable
loans were a distracting token used as a political
election gambit. (Assuming I understood the question
correctly!) I sidetracked with my pet peeve rant. I do
believe it is a political ploy and while I also believe
that subsidizing?worthy recipients from poverty into
self-supporting financial success is a valid use of social
common funds, I would not even have thought of slavery or
related history in the consideration?of the question.? To
me, the p[roblem is social success today?despite
or because of our individual?histories.
Everybody in
the discussion has valid points. My support for the $20k
loans is on the fence because I do not know the details of
the oversigt. To clarify my position (not that Kamala or
anyone else in government will care!), no, I do not
believe any social segment?alive today is owed reparations
for any historic wrongs done to their ancestors. I do?believe
that a society which invests in continuous improvements?to
poverty and related issues in wisely nurturing the
fundamental potential of its citizen base to carry the
communal well being higher in the future.
I will
support targeted improvements using?common resources
because it makes sense as a solution to a present?problem,
not because of any emotional political flag-waving?about
historic events.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50,
Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to
disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you understand
slavery and discrimination better than I do, so
you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so
that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is
an alternative reason other than I'm not making
any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone
else's ancestors treated another someone else's
ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend
generations. We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be
considered on a societal level, ?then you should
believe reparations should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into someone whose
ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how
much should you, as a descendent, be willing to
pay that other person to alleviate the damage
that your slave-owning ancestor did to that
other person?? Just give me a rough figure-
would $20,000 square things up?
On Tue, Oct 29,
2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages
of slavery (destroying families) and a
couple of centuries of segregation and
discrimination have put black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that
because you don't want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would
write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep
going back to feeling guilty even though you
don't want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are
all long gone.? Why should their descendants
deserve compensation for the suffering of
their great grandparents?? If it could be
proven that your ancestor had owned a slave,
would how large a check would you personally
be willing to write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste
wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The only people who
were ever enslaved and actively
segregated were African-Americans.
If they have African-American
ancestry then that's the group that
would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed
for this to happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be quantified, who is to
blame, and how far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in the USA ended
five generations ago.? Second, how
do you handle mixed-race people,
especially those who are unaware
that they are of mixed race?? How
about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered discrimination
due to their religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and what
about those with multiple sources
of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that
this is just a bell that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if
their ancestors are alive or
not. When you've been
discriminated against (as I
have, for example) it is
fair to try to make up for
that unfairness. Nobody
(except perhaps you) is
condemning those who are
alive now as being
responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't
mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified,
though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted
as verifiable
and objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages
as others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in the
mountain cold at
a state park in
New Mexico. I do
not condemn all
campers using
the campground
nor do I assess
whether?society
at large should
be condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and did
what I consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply to
me in grade
school English
classes. I feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost puppies!),
and I try to
respect those
around?me. Even
other drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider myself
as advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and the
strike of being
from "the wrong
side of the
tracks." For the
most part, I
have earned any
positive changes
I benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help from
others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I expect
to be lifted up
or reimbursed by
the descendants
of any who
abused my
ancestors--those
people currently
breathing were
not part of
those historical
stories. This is
an accepted fact
in a culture
where time
travel?or common
extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with today
and do not try
to atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted for
historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed at
such a lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if
I can and
approve of
society
stimulating such
resources for
the benefit of
all. I simply
think we need to
be aware that
there is (in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into a
manipulative and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral lever
of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or
1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for some
modern-day
effort, you had
better use a
more clearly and
rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity with
whatever trials
your ancestors
went through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't understand
why anyone would
be against helping
those who have
been discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages as
others. Africans
who were brought
to America
suffered a lot of
loss and then
weren't allowed to
even try to make
up for it. I think
there were plenty
around who would
have liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024
12:59 PM, Darrell
King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
Re: Friday Five October 25
Darrell,
Wow! So much blah, blah, blah to try to justify your position. I
certainly don't see helping black entrepreneurs in the U.S. as
reparations. Nor do I see it as emotionally or politically
motivated. It's just the right thing to do.
Aloha,
Celeste
On 10/30/2024 5:00 AM, Darrell King
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I think of historical
events as contributing factors from which karma, or
consequences, can be observed in the present day. No
phenomena arises from only one factor, so any problem we
tackle will have multiple contributing factors that are
defined by the human minds pointing at them.
Slavery is a word (concept, symbol) that can be pasted
onto many situations, including the
institutionalized?slavery so famous in U.S.?history, the
experience of Irish indentured servants, the
subjected?status a females in much of U.S.?history and the
experience of some European captives by
indigenous?American tribe members. Not everyone will agree
with every use of the word, but that is inherent in our
use of?symbols.
Stepping?back from
emotional social issues, any mistreatment of one
human?being by another, whether singular or group, is
likely to influence events downstream from its happening.
The impact of the slavery period may have influenced (and
been influenced by) the perspectives of social groups of
that time and then all these factors influenced the
evolution of today's class and racially-related issues. To
distill the problem(s) into one cause and then drive
solutions from that oversimplification?is a thought
process bound to result in fallacies. Indeed, I feel from
my personal?experience that many 'disadvantaged' people
likely contribute to?their own ongoing misfortunes?by
buying into the stereotype applied to them.
This is just my opinion,
but I feel that solutions are generally more effective
when they focus on how?to improve rather than on causes.
The latter can be useful, of course, but in this case as
an example, the original?question asked if the forgivable
loans were a distracting token used as a political
election gambit. (Assuming I understood the question
correctly!) I sidetracked with my pet peeve rant. I do
believe it is a political ploy and while I also believe
that subsidizing?worthy recipients from poverty into
self-supporting financial success is a valid use of social
common funds, I would not even have thought of slavery or
related history in the consideration?of the question.? To
me, the p[roblem is social success today?despite
or because of our individual?histories.
Everybody in
the discussion has valid points. My support for the $20k
loans is on the fence because I do not know the details of
the oversigt. To clarify my position (not that Kamala or
anyone else in government will care!), no, I do not
believe any social segment?alive today is owed reparations
for any historic wrongs done to their ancestors. I do?believe
that a society which invests in continuous improvements?to
poverty and related issues in wisely nurturing the
fundamental potential of its citizen base to carry the
communal well being higher in the future.
I will
support targeted improvements using?common resources
because it makes sense as a solution to a present?problem,
not because of any emotional political flag-waving?about
historic events.
On Oct 30, 2024, at 00:50,
Celeste wrote:
? Ed,
Nobody was owned by one of my ancestors. Sorry to
disappoint you.
On 10/29/2024 9:50 AM, Ed Lomas wrote:
So you are sure that you understand
slavery and discrimination better than I do, so
you feel you have to tutor me on the basics so
that I'll agree with you?
If my question makes no sense to you there is
an alternative reason other than I'm not making
any sense to anyone.?
I feel no guilt whatsoever over how someone
else's ancestors treated another someone else's
ancestors.? Guilt does not transcend
generations. We don't inherit guilt or
obligation, nor do I expect someone to pay me
because their ancestor wronged my ancestor.
If you believe that reparations should be
considered on a societal level, ?then you should
believe reparations should be considered on a
personal level. If you ran into someone whose
ancestor was owned by one of your ancestors, how
much should you, as a descendent, be willing to
pay that other person to alleviate the damage
that your slave-owning ancestor did to that
other person?? Just give me a rough figure-
would $20,000 square things up?
On Tue, Oct 29,
2024 at 8:35?AM Celeste wrote:
Ed,
I've already explained how the disadvantages
of slavery (destroying families) and a
couple of centuries of segregation and
discrimination have put black Americans at a
disadvantage. I guess you skipped over that
because you don't want to acknowledge that.
Your question about how big a check I would
write makes no sense whatsoever. You keep
going back to feeling guilty even though you
don't want to admit it.
On 10/27/2024 12:09 PM, Ed Lomas wrote:
The former slaves are
all long gone.? Why should their descendants
deserve compensation for the suffering of
their great grandparents?? If it could be
proven that your ancestor had owned a slave,
would how large a check would you personally
be willing to write to that slave's
descendants?
On Sunday, October 27, 2024, Celeste
wrote:
Ed,
No, I don't think it's a bell that
can't be unrung. The only people who
were ever enslaved and actively
segregated were African-Americans.
If they have African-American
ancestry then that's the group that
would be eligible to get the
subsidy. There is no blame needed
for this to happen.
On 10/27/2024 9:15 AM, Ed Lomas
wrote:
How can
unfairness be quantified, who is to
blame, and how far back do we have
to go?? Slavery in the USA ended
five generations ago.? Second, how
do you handle mixed-race people,
especially those who are unaware
that they are of mixed race?? How
about the Irish, Jews, Italians, and
those who suffered discrimination
due to their religious or political
beliefs, like Mormons, Huguenots,
and Communists.
What about handicapped people,
including stutters, those with
autism, and aspergers, and what
about those with multiple sources
of impairment?
Doesn't it seem to you that
this is just a bell that can't be
unrung?
Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
It really doesn't matter if
their ancestors are alive or
not. When you've been
discriminated against (as I
have, for example) it is
fair to try to make up for
that unfairness. Nobody
(except perhaps you) is
condemning those who are
alive now as being
responsible for that
unfairness. That doesn't
mean it didn't happen and
shouldn't be rectified,
though.
On 10/27/2024 5:27 AM,
Darrell King wrote:
I can agree with that statement, Celeste, as
it is formatted
as verifiable
and objectively
present-moment.
Your reference
to
"...discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages
as others..."
would, in my
mind, address
people alive now?who
are being
treated in a
manner at odds
with my values.?
Not only people...this past week we rescued a
small dog
shivering in the
mountain cold at
a state park in
New Mexico. I do
not condemn all
campers using
the campground
nor do I assess
whether?society
at large should
be condemned?for
animal abuse
since I do not
know if all
members of
society were
involved in
losing or
abandoning the
pup. I simply
rescued?the
critter?and did
what I consider
proper (he is
safely with a
protective
advocate now.)
I am a Caucasian?middle class male U.S.
citizen. I use
the male
pronouns I was
taught apply to
me in grade
school English
classes. I feel
protective of
women and
children (and
lost puppies!),
and I try to
respect those
around?me. Even
other drivers!?
Despite all
this, I do not
consider myself
as advantaged. I
grew up very
poor in a
backwoods
rural?community
with social
anxiety,
bullying?and the
strike of being
from "the wrong
side of the
tracks." For the
most part, I
have earned any
positive changes
I benefit from,
although?I
acknowledge
having help from
others
(including
social breaks)
whenever such
benefited me.?
I did not get any free rides due to my
disadvantages,
nor do I expect
to be lifted up
or reimbursed by
the descendants
of any who
abused my
ancestors--those
people currently
breathing were
not part of
those historical
stories. This is
an accepted fact
in a culture
where time
travel?or common
extreme
longevity are
not likely
truths.
Basically, I
deal with today
and do not try
to atone?for the
sins of my
ancestors.
I agree that it is likely that many citizens,
regardless of
belonging to
groups noted for
historic
mistreatment,
have the
potential to
become
successful
entrepreneurs.
Hell, I did it
in software
despite?not
initially
believing?I
could succeed at
such a lofty
ambition. I am
fine with
supporting an
entrepreneur if
I can and
approve of
society
stimulating such
resources for
the benefit of
all. I simply
think we need to
be aware that
there is (in my
judgement) an
ongoing effort
to twist the
story of
historic
treatment into a
manipulative and
demonstrably
logically
invalid
behavioral lever
of guilt.
With all respect, I never mistreated anyone
in the 1700's or
1800's and
therefore, if
the figurative
and generic
'you' want my
support for some
modern-day
effort, you had
better use a
more clearly and
rationally
expressed
argument than
that of
emphasizing my
nonexistent
complicity with
whatever trials
your ancestors
went through!
Thank you for the sensible discussion,
Celeste!
Celeste
wrote:
Darrell,
I don't feel
guilty about their
mistreatment
either. I just
don't understand
why anyone would
be against helping
those who have
been discriminated
against and
haven't had the
same advantages as
others. Africans
who were brought
to America
suffered a lot of
loss and then
weren't allowed to
even try to make
up for it. I think
there were plenty
around who would
have liked to
become
entrepreneurs.
On 10/26/2024
12:59 PM, Darrell
King wrote:
I believe you mean to say you are in favor of
helping the descendants?of
people who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before your
parents
arrived,
Celeste.
Therein lies
my quibble: we
have been
conditioned to
ignore this
distinction as
though I was
port?of that
mistreatment.
I was not and
I hope that
even if I had
been alive and
adult back in
that day, I
would?not have
contributed to
mistreatment.
I often help people on an individual basis. I
share
frequently
when able.
This?is not
out of any
sense of guilt
or
responsibility?related
to the
behaviors of
my social?or
biological
ancestors,
however, but
rather?originates
on my
personal?values
on the
subject. I
admit to
feeling a
little put out
when somebody
insists I owe?some
person or
group because
some
predecessor?acted
a certain way.
Even if I
disapprove of
some
historical
behavior, such
as the
treatment uf
North American
indigenous
people by
European
immigrants, I
am still not
personally
liable for
those
immigrants'
behaviors.
Doesn't mean I
am against
helping them
or anyone.
Just means
that?rationally
I may deal
with the
fallout
(karma?) from
history but I
do not feel
guilty about
someone else's
actions!
D
On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:56?AM Celeste wrote:
Darrell,
Your response
sounds
incredibly
bigoted. My
ancestors
weren't even
in the U.S.
until the 20th
century and
I'm still in
favor of
helping
peoples who
were
mistreated in
the U.S.
before they
arrived. And,
of course,
that includes
the indigenous
peoples. You,
however, I am
disappointed
in.
On
10/26/2024
7:27 AM,
Darrell King
wrote:
And
Darrell
wondered: I
am curious how
many
eligible?black
entrepreneurs
were around
during the "slavery
and
discrimination
eras" to lose
time thusly??
Sorry, Celeste! It is a pet peeve of mine
that the sins
of the
fathers?are
carried to the
sons! While I
do believe in
continuous
improvement?on
a social
level, I
consider
myself as
bearing
absolutely no
personal
responsibility
for any
alleged sins
my forefathers
may have been
involved?in! I
certainly do
not
oppose?entrepreneurism in any group and so I am wary of this constant
effort to make
amends?for
those sins to
a generation
that had no
exposure to
said sins.
I
suppose social
assistance for
deserving
entrepreneurs
no matter
ethnicity or
other social
factors. Base
such
support?on the
validity and
value of the
business plan,
sure. I
suppose I lean
rightward on
the idea that
I should make
up for the
idea that a
given
population
deserves to be
lifted out of
their woes
simply because
of historical
mistreatment?of a population with similarities. I try to treat people
decently as
part of my
personal
morality, but
I am not
responsible
for how others
have treated
people.
Having
vented all
that, I would
support
forgivable
loans for
ideas assessed
solely?on
their business
plans and
ongoing
monitoring of
their use
without
consideration
of ethnicity
or
similar?'disadvantaged'
factoring..?
Celeste Answered to?Is Harris's offer of forgivable
$20,000 loans
to black men
the equivalent
of shiny beads
to Indians??with
"No, not in any way. It's for black
entrepreneurs.
It gives them
a chance to
make up for
lost time
during the
slavery and
discrimination
eras."
|
David Smith