Thank you Mark,
Yes, on this particular guiding session, I do recall Dec was
almost perfectly balanced, rather than a little camera heavy. I
was having a bit of trouble getting the balance correct and
finally said "good enough".? I use NINA TPA, and try to get <
0.8", which PHD2 then tells me is 2.0" !? This guiding session, it
started at 2.0" and was 0.2" for the bulk of the guiding.
I will add this to my things to try. Also considering ordering a
21# CW to move up the shaft, to reduce moment arm.
Now the skies are cloudy for a few nights as usual.
Dale
On 3/3/25 11:49 AM, Mark Christensen
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Your DEC may be too perfectly balanced, and your polar
alignment may be too good.
?
Seems contradictory but if there is any backlash in your DEC
then every time you correct (say) a negative DEC error you may
overcompensate.
Then you have a positive error, which it then also
overcompensates. The cycle continues then, which it looks like
what is happening.
?
One thing to try is to reduce the DEC aggressiveness (aka
feedback). That may, just may, fix it. I say that because your
graph makes it appear your
DEC corrections are overshooting on a periodic basis. PEC is
a non-issue with DEC as DEC guiding commands will rarely, if
ever, cause a worm cycle.
?
Another thing to try is to turn off Auto DEC and force it to
correct in only one direction - namely that needed to correct
any (tiny, but not too tiny) DEC drift.
That way it will never reverse so, with a tiny amount of DEC
imbalance (in the right direction) the DEC gear will always be
engaged.
?
Same idea as RA being heavy east and guiding aggressiveness
in the range of 0.5X. Doing that guarantees it will never
reverse so any backlash is a non-issue.
?
You will need, of course, to figure out which (if any)
direction you have DEC drift. But a bit of experimentation will
tell you which works for any particular target.
?
A tiny amount of DEC drift, together with setting the DEC
algorithm so it only goes in one direction, may solve your
problem.
?
Usually, on most mounts that I've seen, the RA has the larger
residual guiding error, not the DEC. Your RA residuals look
splendid.
?
And, of course, some of this advice is hard to do with remote
operations.
?
Best regards,
?
Mark C.
|
Thank you John,
These are also some of my thoughts. Moment-arm especially.
RA,Dec cables checked.
Dither is after 6-8 frames, and frequently is RA only, spiral. I
have always (over the life of the mount) had PHD2 timeout waiting
for settle after dithers, so I make them infrequent and mild.
TVC = 0
The GM811 has an instrument carrying capacity of 50lbs imaging,
65lbs visual. I understand that to be exclusive of counterweights,
so I believe well within limits.
However, the moment-arm interests me. The counterweights were
previously 2x11 lbs near the bottom of the CW shaft, and this
particular run I added a 7# CW to the bottom to move the 2 11# CWs
up. They are still not up to top.?
Also, the scope itself is 50" from front edge to camera rear.
That would seem to add a bit of moment arm as well.
I am using an RAEXT, so the Dec axis is also a bit farther from
RA.
RA and Dec are both balanced, slightly East and Camera heavy. Dec
was actually almost too balanced this run.
Thanks!
Dale
On 3/2/25 11:25 PM, John Kmetz via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dale,
?
This seems bizarre behavior. Dec (which should be in red)
typically will drift in one direction if PA is off. If seeing is
bad it should vary randomly. Having a repeating pattern I think
is something software other than hardware as the Dec motor
should only be rotating back and forth as corrections are
needed.
?
Some random ideas:
-Are RA and Dec cables reversed (probably not)?
-Are you dithering after every frame and is the dither large?
-Have you checked TVC in the hand controller, perhaps too
large a value?
-Dec MinMo seems large - I'm seeing changing values from 0.2
to 0.35
-57# on an GM811 seems, like a lot. If a G11 has 60# payload,
the 811 is less, I think. Are your counterweights all at the
bottom of the CW shaft? Perhaps too much moment-arm the mount
can't handle.
?
All I could think of for now.
?
Good luck.
?
John
--
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep
controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO
ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field
flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics
Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, NINA, Sequence Generator Pro and
PixInsight user
|
Thank you for the input! Inline answers:
On 3/2/25 8:36 PM, Chip Louie via
groups.io wrote:
?
Some questions for you.? First, what
did the PE look like before it started to misbehave??
Generally when a system is guiding well it generally will
continue to guide well until you change something.
In general, occasionally good (0.41" RA, 0.41" Dec, 0.59" RMS was
best I've seen back in October 2024), mostly so-so to bad PE/guiding
(0.8-1.2" RA and Dec, 1-1.5" combined)
?
So
what did you change?? Different scope?? Different auto guiding
system? Different guide camera? Did you change your
autoguiding software?? Any software updates?? Update ASCOM?
The SVX140 replaces a 102 f7 scope in October 2024. Same basic
system, rotator, FW, focuser, camera, Mele3c, GL.iNet router.
I have used both a 210mm f4 guidescope with ASI290 2.9uM px
binned x2 and binned x11, and a QHY OAG-M with same camera.
Neither seems absolutely better, but I did root out some issues
with the OAG and Rotator interaction for PHD2. Some of my earlier
guiding issues were undoubtedly related to the rotator not
conveying Rot angle to PHD2. This has been fixed.
Always have used NINA, with PHD2 guiding. Always RA is Predictive
PEC at 239.34s fixed, and Resist Switch Dec.
Softwares are current. ASCOM drivers were updated recently
(January) to handle behavior issues with older Wanderer Mini
Rotator.
?
What
firmware is your Gemini 2 on?
HC Firmware 1.61 8/2/23
Mainboard??? 6.02 1/29/24
Servo??????????? RA 3.0 Dec 3.0
?
Do
you have tucked servos and spring loaded worms??
Tucked servos and SLW.
Thanks!
Dale
?
--
Chip Louie
Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
|
Your DEC may be too perfectly balanced, and your polar alignment may be too good.
?
Seems contradictory but if there is any backlash in your DEC then every time you correct (say) a negative DEC error you may overcompensate.
Then you have a positive error, which it then also overcompensates. The cycle continues then, which it looks like what is happening.
?
One thing to try is to reduce the DEC aggressiveness (aka feedback). That may, just may, fix it. I say that because your graph makes it appear your
DEC corrections are overshooting on a periodic basis. PEC is a non-issue with DEC as DEC guiding commands will rarely, if ever, cause a worm cycle.
?
Another thing to try is to turn off Auto DEC and force it to correct in only one direction - namely that needed to correct any (tiny, but not too tiny) DEC drift.
That way it will never reverse so, with a tiny amount of DEC imbalance (in the right direction) the DEC gear will always be engaged.
?
Same idea as RA being heavy east and guiding aggressiveness in the range of 0.5X. Doing that guarantees it will never reverse so any backlash is a non-issue.
?
You will need, of course, to figure out which (if any) direction you have DEC drift. But a bit of experimentation will tell you which works for any particular target.
?
A tiny amount of DEC drift, together with setting the DEC algorithm so it only goes in one direction, may solve your problem.
?
Usually, on most mounts that I've seen, the RA has the larger residual guiding error, not the DEC. Your RA residuals look splendid.
?
And, of course, some of this advice is hard to do with remote operations.
?
Best regards,
?
Mark C.
|
On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 11:25 PM, John Kmetz wrote:
Dale,
?
This seems bizarre behavior. Dec (which should be in red) typically will drift in one direction if PA is off. If seeing is bad it should vary randomly. Having a repeating pattern I think is something software other than hardware as the Dec motor should only be rotating back and forth as corrections are needed.
?
Some random ideas:
-Are RA and Dec cables reversed (probably not)?
-Are you dithering after every frame and is the dither large?
-Have you checked TVC in the hand controller, perhaps too large a value?
-Dec MinMo seems large - I'm seeing changing values from 0.2 to 0.35
-57# on an GM811 seems, like a lot. If a G11 has 60# payload, the 811 is less, I think. Are your counterweights all at the bottom of the CW shaft? Perhaps too much moment-arm the mount can't handle.
?
All I could think of for now.
?
Good luck.
?
John
--
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, NINA, Sequence Generator Pro and PixInsight user
?
John K,?
?
Good call on the TVC setting which AFAIK should always be set to zero.?
?
The OP's actual payload is only 28lbs. in the saddle not 57lbs which is the TOTAL of his saddle payload plus counterweights.? ??
?
Something nobody has mentioned yet is that we don't know if the mount is properly balanced on both axes or not.? As you know it's not just the RA axis payload in the saddle, the weight balanced by the counterweights, but also the balance of the DEC axis, which runs along the axis of the optical tube, that requires good balance.? If the DEC axis is not balanced and there is some backlash the same tooth to tooth bounce can happen on the DEC axis worm and worm gear.?
?
The questions in my first post may still hold the answers once the OP posts the answers.? ? ? ?
?
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
|
Hi Ryan,? Did you get this resolved?? I'm seeing the same behavior - though not quite so bad.? I sent my mount back to Scott due to RA oscillations.? He was able to resolve this, and the mount tracks well now, but my dec backlash is over 4000mS while it was typically under 750mS before sending.? I've historically adjusted the DEC SLW per Scotts video with good success but not having any luck now.? I suspect the screws holding the blocks to the plate might need adjustment (which Scott doesn't touch in his video).? I will look at these next.? I would love to hear what you did to resolve your issue.? ? Best, Jim?
|
On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 12:53 PM, crocco1250 wrote:
Hi Ryan,? Did you get this resolved?? I'm seeing the same behavior - though not quite so bad.? I sent my mount back to Scott due to RA oscillations.? He was able to resolve this, and the mount tracks well now, but my dec backlash is over 4000mS while it was typically under 750mS before sending.? I've historically adjusted the DEC SLW per Scotts video with good success but not having any luck now.? I suspect the screws holding the blocks to the plate might need adjustment (which Scott doesn't touch in his video).? I will look at these next.? I would love to hear what you did to resolve your issue.? ? Best, Jim?
|
Dale,
?
This seems bizarre behavior. Dec (which should be in red) typically will drift in one direction if PA is off. If seeing is bad it should vary randomly. Having a repeating pattern I think is something software other than hardware as the Dec motor should only be rotating back and forth as corrections are needed.
?
Some random ideas:
-Are RA and Dec cables reversed (probably not)?
-Are you dithering after every frame and is the dither large?
-Have you checked TVC in the hand controller, perhaps too large a value?
-Dec MinMo seems large - I'm seeing changing values from 0.2 to 0.35
-57# on an GM811 seems, like a lot. If a G11 has 60# payload, the 811 is less, I think. Are your counterweights all at the bottom of the CW shaft? Perhaps too much moment-arm the mount can't handle.
?
All I could think of for now.
?
Good luck.
?
John
--
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, NINA, Sequence Generator Pro and PixInsight user
|
On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 12:02 PM, DaleN wrote:
<<SNIPPED>>?
?
OTA is an SVX140T about 28 lbs with 29 lbs counterweight. Am using an OAG at the scope's FL of about 938mm.
?
Is 57 lbs past the limit of the G8 DEC perhaps?
?
Any thoughts on what to try or adjust??
?
Dale
?
Definitely not under mounted.? The generally used rules for determining imaging payload for commodity mounts do not apply to better mounts like Losmandy.? The GM811G has a stated saddle payload for imaging of up to 50 pounds.? This does not include any counterweight.?
?
I had no issues using my vintage GM8s on a Berlbach Planet tripod with a TEC140, M10" f/6.3 LX200 and NS11 SCTs.? The GM811G has almost twice the payload capability of the old GM8s,.you should be GTG
??
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
|
?
Some questions for you.? First, what did the PE look like before it started to misbehave?? Generally when a system is guiding well it generally will continue to guide well until you change something.?
?
So what did you change?? Different scope?? Different auto guiding system? Different guide camera? Did you change your autoguiding software?? Any software updates?? Update ASCOM?
?
What firmware is your Gemini 2 on??
?
Do you have tucked servos and spring loaded worms???
?
--
Chip Louie Chief Daydreamer Imagination Hardware?
Astrospheric Forecast - South Pasadena, CA?
?
?
?
|
Hope I'm missing something obvious here, but my GM811 guiding has recently seemed impossible to get sorted. I have occasionally been able to achieve 0.5" guiding, but more typically 0.7"-1.2" with current configuration. After breakdown of RA and Dec, replacement clutch pads (Hermann), relube of all bearings, adjustment of worm meshes, gearbox, PEMPro RA 2x worm PEC, etc, I still can't seem to dial this in.
A sample screenshot shows a regular whiplash of DEC, with repeating spikes, which to me indicates some regular periodic roughness of worm gear on the DEC axis? DEC is swinging back and forth here. Could DEC also be affecting the RA numbers?
?
DEC seems to have slight visible play by hand; clutches are tightened about ? turn past touching. Nothing too different than ever.
?
OTA is an SVX140T about 28 lbs with 29 lbs counterweight. Am using an OAG at the scope's FL of about 938mm.
?
Is 57 lbs past the limit of the G8 DEC perhaps?
?
Any thoughts on what to try or adjust??
?
Dale
|
So.... Pier side - What is it? Pier-side, at least its ASCOM definition, is based solely on the mechanical position of the Declination axis. When the scope passes through the celestial pole, the mount's pier-side changes. See here: -Ray
|
On 3/2/2025 11:09 AM, John Kmetz via groups.io wrote: Niel,
Failure to flip usually results from your mount limits not being set right:
please see the following Losmandy video:
<>
John Since a flip is simply a new GOTO after the target passes the meridian, if NINA and the mount do not agree that the target has indeed crossed the meridian the flip will fail. In my case my failed flips were because the mount and NINA did not agree precisely on location and time.? Once that was solved, my flips have been 100% for years. Paul -- Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI USA pgoelz@... www.pgoelz.com
|
?
"Another way to think of the "side" of the pier that your scope is on -- it's the side with the center of the saddle. That seems obvious, but if your scope is long and you are near the vertical with the counterweight shaft, the aperture or opposite end of the scope may be across the meridian (or the object you're pointing at is across the meridian.) The saddle is always clearly in one side or the other. This way, it doesn't matter what you are pointing at in the sky, you're always setting a limit or a model for the side that the center of the saddle is on, not what you're looking at."
|
Niel,
?
Failure to flip usually results from your mount limits not being set right:
?
please see the following Losmandy video:
?
?
John
--
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Losmandy G11G2 on pier; refurbed Losmandy G11 with OnStep controller; SkyShed design roll-off observatory; ZWO ASI2600MM-P; ZWO ASI071MC; Sky-Watcher Esprit 100 ED with field flattener; Celestron C925 Edge HD with 0.7XFR, William Optics Zenithstar 61 APO; PHD2, NINA, Sequence Generator Pro and PixInsight user
|
Pier side refers to where the telescope is located referenced to the mount itself, regardless of where it’s pointing. For instance, you can have the scope on the west side of the mount pointing east and, later in the session, if your limits allow it, it will go past the meridian and be looking west. All throughout this example, the scope is pier side west.
at least I think this is the right way but, I’ve been proven wrong before so who knows? :)
|
Thanks for the reply, Ed
I'm in the southern hemisphere and using Gemeni 1 - not that either of those factors make an iota of difference to what pier side means..
I think of it as where the telescope is pointing. So in the northern hemisphere, standing behind the mount, west is pointing left and east is pointing right.
?
No expert here, but I believe that is the gist of it.
?
So far as getting meridian flips working, for me it was all about the settings here:
?
?
I would tell you the settings on mine, but it isn't set up right now. If I do soon, I will post again.
?
|
I think of it as where the telescope is pointing. So in the northern hemisphere, standing behind the mount, west is pointing left and east is pointing right.
?
No expert here, but I believe that is the gist of it.
?
So far as getting meridian flips working, for me it was all about the settings here:
?
?
I would tell you the settings on mine, but it isn't set up right now. If I do soon, I will post again.
?
|
Hi All
I know this is not a Losmandy specific question but since I'm STILL struggling with getting automated pier flips to work?with my Losmandy?G11 and N.I.N.A, I figured this would be a good place to start....
I've decided to go?right back to basics and ask some questions that may be construed as "silly", so bear with me.
So.... Pier side - What is it? I know what I THINK it is, but I just want clarification so I can tick that one off my list. Let's say that the Gemini software is saying the scope is pier side West. Is the scope on the west side of the pier? Is the scope on the east side of the pier but pointing west of the meridian
My belief is that in this instance, the scope would be on the west side of the pier (regardless of whether it is pointing to the east or west of the meridian). But what do I know???
-- Thanks and Best Regards Neil
|
Re: RA guiding awful after upgrade
Well, I've had it.? I'm just going to send the whole thing to Losmandy and see if they can figure it out.? My eq6-r is currently guiding at 0.19" and the g11 is doing this.??
|
Chip Louie
Ryan Noonan
Ed Harp