Hi Thiago I am building near the east coast of the USA. I am about an hour away from a large estuary called the Chesapeake Bay. I am also looking forward to seeing how the roof looks :) Vento Favoravel Patrick
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Hello PAtrick, Thank you very much for your explanations. It's very useful for those who have choosen to make their own fittings. Congratulations for your build. "Long distance" Voyager. :) Where are you building it? I'm looking forward to see how the roof looks like.
Good luck and fair winds . Thiago
On 15 December 2017 at 19:31, voya12m@... [k-designs] <k-designs@...> wrote:
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Hi Thiago The D.R. Voyager is our build. Good job taking the time clean up and fillet as you go. I think you will be glad you did. And remember you can probably also make your beams before you get a larger shed. And the other smaller parts like the rudders etc.?
I highly recommend making your own carbon chainplates and deck cleats. And brackets for anything too, if you can make them work. There are two general methods that I have seen and used:
¡°±«²Ô¾±-»å°ù²¹±è±ð¡± This method is to clamp your pipe or tube (with plastic around it) in place on top of a plywood spacer, then drape uni carbon over the tube and down beyond the spacer in layers to build up strength. I like to wrap a little fiberglass around the pipe first. This is a good method for making chainplates and deck cleats. Bernd wrote an article for chainplates and another for deck cleats using pictures from Andrew¡¯s green 860 using this method. The article is in the files section of this forum.?
¡°Laminate and drill¡± The other method is to use a large block of wood covered in plastic as a mold and drape your carbon or glass over the block, alternating the direction of the strands, or using a combination of biax and uni. In this method you make a ¡°C¡± or ¡°L¡± bracket, cut it into the shape you want, glue it in place, then drill a hole through it. This is the method Bernd recommends for gudgeons.? And there is a blog where a guy uses this method to make a snatch block:
I used the uni-drape method for my cross beam brackets in the photos, but if I had to do it again I would have used the other method to make L brackets. I would have done this: After reinforcing the hull with extra plywood, cut a slot through the hull. Then laminate a long L ?(right angle beam) using a big block of wood as a mold. Alternate strand direction. First and last layer should be fiberglass cloth.? Sand and carefully cut the long L into shorter pieces. Fit one piece through the slot in the hull. Fit another piece outside of the hull, butted next to the first piece. Glue them in place together, cut the flush and drill a hole through them. This is one possible way to make brackets that hold an aluminum tube. Or any kind of eye, for that matter. The bracket outside the hull is only needed for applications that force the bracket back towards the hull. Of course you could also make the slot wider and make brackets on the other side as well. Or change the angle of the bracket to align better with the load. Like a chafe-free anchor point. ? Cheers Patrick ? ?
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Re: Clever small foam cutter
Polyurethane foam gasses off some
extremely toxic stuff when heated.??? Hot wire cutting of it is
hazardous to your health.?? Polystyrene.... which encompasses blue
and pink foam, and bead board, stinks, but is relatively
harmless.?? If you do use a hot wire on polyurethane.... such as
seat foam or spray foam, you should do it outdoors, and have an
air supply so you aren't breathing the fumes.? A good fan can do
the job.
??????????????????????????????????????????? H.W.
On 12/24/2017 08:55 AM, stephen worsfold smworsfold@...
[k-designs] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
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I have been using hot wire foam
cutters for ?over 30 years to cut mostly eps foam to
make various foil shapes. The largest one we made was
about 3m long and was pretty much like an old fashioned
?bow saw frame with a straight backbone made of wood and
the 2 legs of steel conduit and was used to make
patterns out of foam which we would use to make plaster,
concrete or green sand molds to pour lead keels. I got
the idea at the time while visiting the experimental
aircraft association show in Oshkosh, Wisconsin in the
early 1980s where I saw a demo of hot wire cutting foam
for wings which were similar shapes to the typical fin
keels of the keelboats we were building at the time. It
was a huge time saver for us in making keel patterns. We
used the same nickel chrome wire that is used in
electric toasters that is easy to buy online. Back then
we bought it from a local appliance repair shop but that
was back when people repaired things. For? power we used
a variable power supply such as used for model electric
trains. My current one was bought at a yard sale for
?$5.00. I have only used it to cut polystyrene foam
myself but I lent it to a kid at work last year to cut
polyurethane upholstery foam for his boat cushions which
he said worked fine.
?
Steve.
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Sent from for Windows 10
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?
?
I found just this small and clever PVC cutter.
For some small pieces as base very hand
?
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Cheers
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Bernd
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Re: Clever small foam cutter
Hi Steve
Thank you for your input. I know the system is nothing new. We have built a DUO 425 1984 with hot wiring foam. The hull is about 500 mm and it was no fun. The wire in this length bents to much to be accurate. We finished the boat after a lot of extra sanding. In the end we used 3 times the time building the boat in the usual plywood/fiberglas/Epoxy system. It was also not lighter. So in the end, not a success. The small cutter on Instructable is only for small pieces, where it will work and is quick to build. For instance for the inner base of ?"juffertjes" for Dynema stays. This is the reason I show the link.
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: Clever small foam cutter
I have been using hot wire foam cutters for ?over 30 years to cut mostly eps foam to make various foil shapes. The largest one we made was about 3m long and was pretty much like an old fashioned ?bow saw frame with a straight backbone made
of wood and the 2 legs of steel conduit and was used to make patterns out of foam which we would use to make plaster, concrete or green sand molds to pour lead keels. I got the idea at the time while visiting the experimental aircraft association show in Oshkosh,
Wisconsin in the early 1980s where I saw a demo of hot wire cutting foam for wings which were similar shapes to the typical fin keels of the keelboats we were building at the time. It was a huge time saver for us in making keel patterns. We used the same nickel
chrome wire that is used in electric toasters that is easy to buy online. Back then we bought it from a local appliance repair shop but that was back when people repaired things. For? power we used a variable power supply such as used for model electric trains.
My current one was bought at a yard sale for ?$5.00. I have only used it to cut polystyrene foam myself but I lent it to a kid at work last year to cut polyurethane upholstery foam for his boat cushions which he said worked fine.
?
Steve.
?
Sent from for Windows 10
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Bernd@... [k-designs]
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:07 AM
To: k-designs@...
Subject: [k-designs] Clever small foam cutter
?
?
I found just this small and clever PVC cutter. For some small pieces as base very hand
?
?
?
?
Cheers
?
Bernd
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I found just this small and clever PVC cutter. For some small pieces as base very hand
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Hamish Yes a very material and time intensive construction. But the thing has to be strong. I am not a big fan of Mahagony anyway, relation to strength to weigth to heavy, but this is only a small point. With the drawings, take your time, go sailing ;-)
Yes this is real funny with the Code 1. As long as you can manage to fit them to the rig. As ?long as the mast is strong enough. Otherwise you need backstays. I like them on big boats, but for 5.5m boat a lot of extras. The beam of the boat is not so extreme, perhaps a single sided backstay would do. With a sliding bungee on the stay, so that when you release the stay he slides out of the way. I was seeing such a solution on "Fridays Child" ?one of the first big mono racers some years ago. The owner was telling it worked perfect. On the original MANTA the first owner used it to (I mean the bungee system), he had of course on each side a backstay.
So in the end you could have a more easy trailer construction. Typical, this is always afterwards. The solution with the bungee on the vertical wheels sounds good. So the boat stays now centered.?
Have fun sailing an Merry Christmas and a great new year Bernd
NB.: My boat is hypernating, but Maxi likes it (see pic). We just back from a 3 hour walk in the woods.
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Bernd,
the weight of the wing seats is 4kg per seat. Once I provide the dimensions and materials I am sure you will be able to shave some weight off. I sandwiched 220 gram fiber class clothe between 2 pieces of 6mm marine ply for the sides and seat top. Then the framing is mahogany (not known for its lightness). The whole thing was then glassed both sides with Carbon fiber cloth (200 grams). Epoxy primer, undercoat and top coat. The one thing I would do differently is the fixing to the deck pivot points. These are only one sided, I would have put in 2 stainless steel brackets either side of the seat for each end, just to spread the load better. Detailed CAD plans and better description to come.?
Funny you should ask about a code 1, I have just bought a second hand one for a very good price. It will take a little setting up and I have yet to have it delivered, but I at least have the sail.?
On a different topic the trailer is working well. The tilt mechanism was a big waste of time. The wheels are too far back for it to be effective. However my fears of it been to high to launch on our shallow ramps has proven unfounded. What I did add that makes a difference is 2 bungee activated vertical wheels. These move out as the yacht moves back off the trailer and they keep the yacht centered on the rollers, great for retrieval as well. Not an original idea (you can buy spring loaded ones for $300), but these bungees ones are kind on the pocket and sides of the hulls.?
Merry Christmas
Hamish?
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Hamish
I know this, I have also sometimes probles sending photos or videos- so welcome in the club ;-)
Great photos, you sitting there very relaxed on your wing seat. What ever the extra weight is, it is worth to have them. Nice to see you so satisfied. And you know, then I know why I am designing boats! You put a lot of work in the boat and it shows. By the way, as by many other builders also!!! Nice clean wake at the video, thanks. Enjou and keep us informed how your story develobes. Do you have already the Code 1 sail?
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
looking very relaxed at the helm there, Hamish. Thanks for posting, we love seeing this stuff
regards Bryan
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Thanks for the supportive messages, I thought I had uploaded some images, but it appears they did not, so have done it again.?
I hope I have managed to upload a 24 second clip to Youtube.
I am afraid it is just the wake, we will get into some better quality drone footage and such in the new year. A friend did take some footage from another boat so that may provide a different perspective, I am waiting on him to upload and share it with me. Wind speed is around the 10 knot mark. The yacht went from a steady 6 knots to 7 knots when the gust hit, see if you can spot the gust from the wake!?
Regards
Hamish?
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Re: impressions of Cataproa
Hi Philip
very nice work with the cataproa, a fascinating design I must say. Hope you have many happy sailing trips with her
regards Bryan
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hi Hamish,?
congratulations on your sailing launch. Like Bernd, I was very happy to hear that it went well, so looking forward to a bit of video footage.? Amongst your various minor adaptations with the boat, I thought the fold out seats were a great addition. You were just doing the mock ups with them, as I remember when I last saw you.? Not only will they be a dry place to sail from, but the extra vision will be a real bonus.? I cant wait to see HAC again, especially if circumstances allow getting out on the water with you. best wishes for Christmas and new year.
regards? Bryan?
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Re: impressions of Cataproa
Hi Philip
Congratulations. You did a fine job and fast to. The boat looks great. Funny how easy it is to get from the trailer in the water. You are right, some more handholds could be handy. But I used a rope at the bows and she slides ?in the water. I can slide the aft part of my trailer towards the wheels. So I can angle the trailer very steep upwards. Retrifing I do in the same way. I need then somebody who holds the trailer up. Then I pull the boat over the center point. The rest I can do by my self. Nice to hear from you also how easy the boat is coming about. If the speed is right, it is more dinghy like. Of course, it is a multi. More rudder as 45 degree and the rudders stall and work as a brace. That she sails so try is because of the low weight. The Med, where I sailed the boat the most, has sometimes funny wave patterns and you get very wet. But this little thing dances over the waves.? Nice that you can agree to my statement but would not overdo it on my webpage. For me to it is the ultimate one person cruiser. Hans was giving you already an idea how to stiffen the mast. Through the conncetions of a friend, I got my 60mmm carbon tubes relative cheap and of course, no problems anymore.? Thanks for the compliments and I hope you have many nice and interesting sailing adventures with your cataproa. And yes, same questins as these from Hans, more pics please.
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: impressions of Cataproa
Hi Phillip,
Congratulations on your new boat. I have seen Bernd's cataproa in real life and also had the idea this might be a very nice camp cruising boat. The picture of the wake of your hull looks nice and clean.
As to the too bendy mast : It looks like you have used a surf mast.? For my little tri with the same rig (but of course a lot less righting moment) I also used a surf mast. To stiffen it? I put a top piece of another surf mast in the bottem. this is a trick found on the internet, it is used by australian land sailors. I put the mast in as far at it would go (about 2 meters), and then made the top of the insert fit snugly by trial (added a bit more inner tire/tape aroud it and tried until it had good fit), after that I made the two pieces fit well at the deck height? (to prevent buckling).? For my boat this works good. The mast still bends but not too much. You already have another solution, but it might be an idea for newer cataproa builders.
Good luck with you sailing and I hope you can make some more pictures/movieclips !
Cheers, Hans
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Congratulations!!!!!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all!
Pat
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Hi,? I have posted some more pictures in my photo folder
Some impressions of the cataproa. I have sailed the cataproa a few times in varying wind strengths and here are some of my impressions: - Loading and unloading onto and off the trailer is relatively easy due to the low weight.
- Some more handholds for this task will be appreciated, and I will come up with some ideas.
- Once assembled the boat is easily pulled into the water.
- The carbon fiber mast is maybe a bit too bendy, my advice is to try and use a mast with no taper or as little as possible. I have added 300g unidirectional and 300g by axial which has improved this a lot.
- The home made sail performs well especially after adding battens.
- The rig is very easy to handle and the low aspect of it result in very little heel.
- The rudders are very responsive and I believe the size is just right.
- The cataproa sail quite easily due to the low weight, this however makes tacking difficult if too much rudder is used, If the rudders are used gently and a slower tack is performed without bleeding off speed and momentum she tacks quite well.
- While sailing the boat is very dry and sometimes I finish sailing without water splashing on me once.
- With all the lids you really have a lot of packing space and the boat will make a wonderful camp-cruiser. When packing a lot of attention will have to go into selecting appropriate lightweight gear.
- I truly believe this is the ultimate one person boat.
- Every time I sail this little boat really impresses me and I know I am going to have a lot of fun with it.
Berndt I must congratulate you on a winning design. Cheers Philip Malan
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
Hello Hamish
Congratulation with your first sail. I am very pleased with your sailing experience, as brief as your sail was. You are an experienced sailor and your impressions mean a lot to me. If I understud you are also a ?(sail instrucor to I was understanding). The handling quality is not bad so to hear. Good to hear that the boat accelerates well in a gust. The only a "self devence" a multihull has in contrast to a monohull which heels over "shortens sail" in this way. Speed for a not jet optimised rig is okay. What was the windspeed? The most pleasure for my was to hear that the boat sails so well to windward. In contrast to the negative experience from some KD 860 sailors. Self inflected or not is not important. The weather helm is better as a complete neutral boat. But remember it is a multi. If a gust hits hard and a hull lifts bear away and loosen the main sheet to avoid the extra acceleration and lessen the rotational momentum of the rig which can lead to turning the boat over. Also the The opposit what you do with a mono.? Interesting that there was no difference with a second person on board. I belief you that you are pleased with the seat. I will pinch your idea, if this is okay with you. It sounds, that the boat is good in the trim. In time you will seed, it will be not necessary to backwind the jib, when you tack. Just befor pick up speed (even when you have to bear away a bit) and move/slide forward. With such a light boat the movement forward will move the CP also forward both actions together will enable the boat to tack without backwinding the jib.? Again congratulations, you built the best looking ECO 5.5 and hearing your first expressions made my day. Have fun and a good sailing saison.?
Cheers
Bernd
N.B.: can you send the video somehow? We life in a visual time and nobody expects "Oscar" ripe quality
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Re: Eco 5.5 Sailing Version
festive greetings.
Launch day was today. Eco 5.5HAC
We wetted the bows with some carbonated water, then launched into the incoming tide. Had a good hour sailing, couple of things I want to improve, rigging and mast step! Otherwise it sailed straight off the drawing board. Was doing 6 to 7 knots on a reach, 5 knots close hauled. Touched 8 knots briefly. Always felt in control. The yacht reacted well to gusts, accelerating away,? I have a short video clip going from 6 knots to 7, you can see it in the wake! Tacks like any catamaran, sail it around, back wind the jib and its fine. Jybes really nicely, the jib jybes first, fills and then the main, easy to control. No difference noticed with 2 aboard, went from 75kg crew weight (just me) to 125kg when Graeme came aboard. Slight weather helm which I am happy with, can sail itself for a short period of time, otherwise light on the helm. Fold out seats fantastic wonderful view. Points well to windward, if I am to believe the windicator, it sails to windward as well as my monohull, speed drops away but useful if tight maneuvering to know how it points. Good Fun. Thanks Bernd! and thanks to everyone for their positive encouragement, especially Bryan who I hope to take sailing in the new year. It will stay in the workshop now until I get the stays made to length and sort the mast step out. Hope to have more to tell in 2018.?
Hamish??
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Re: Bau eines weiteren Hausboot-CAT (ECO 68)
Hi Jens
You have a nice zoo so to see. And my feet already cols when I look at the picture. Then I am please to life here in the South of France or in Spain (partly). This whide stuff is nice at a distance or on the TV.
Happy new Year and get your boots out
Bernd
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Bernd Kohler
Philip Malan