开云体育

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@q...> wrote:

Glad Jimmy got back here before he left for his road trip,
but I'll admit I'm puzzled by that, too. Part of the puzzle
is perhaps terminology, with different people calling the
same thing something else..? I'd also like to know what is
meant by "economy picking." I'd think one would be as
economical as possible regardless, to avoid fatigue and/or
missing something by going right past it. What am I missing?

The way Jimmy and I pick is, if you've just played a downstroke and
the next note is on the next string _down_ (i.e., higher in pitch),
you play it with another downstroke (or, rather, with the _same
motion_ that produced the first downstroke). And same for upstrokes
moving to the same string up. Otherwise, it's just like alternate
picking. But it _feels_ completely different, since you won't have
anything like the regularity you have with alternate picking, with
downstrokes always coming on strong eighths and upstrokes coming on
weak eighths. Instead, you have a lot less hand motion, so you can
play a lot faster, but you have to be able to articulate equally well
with upstrokes and downstrokes. I find the technique to be
_very "picky"_ as regards string spacing -- it takes me a long time
to adjust to a guitar with different string spacing than the one I've
been playing for a while previously.

With regard to Ted Greene's ideas for syncopation in
soloing; he talks about using accents as perhaps the single
most important aspect of polyrhythmic soloing. Start by
accenting the "ands" which gives a nice backbeat feel, and
move the accents around until you find something you like,
and don't be afraid to put two or more together, next to
each other. He also suggests the use of 1/4 note triplets
instead of 1/8th note swing, but watch out for the late
"ones" on the downbeat of the next bar. I guess kinda think
of it as a -. (minus dot) after the downbeat. In other
words, you're gonna get there late, so just feel for it,
don't try to count it.

These are good ideas, ones which I already use, but not what I was
asking Jimmy about. But thanks.

I suppose part of the problem is after years of doing
something and growing naturally with it, one doesn't
especially notice what they're doing in detail,

When one tries to play many different styles, one begins to notice
these unconscious features all too clearly!

Ah...my friends at 30th Street Guitars in NYC!

* David Beardsley
*
*

Hi Scott,
If you haven't already, I highly recommend picking up a
copy of "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. You'll find
a description of it here: .
IMHO it's an invaluable jazz theory reference for beginning
jazzers to advanced players alike.

Good luck,
Mike

jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Original Message:
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:29:08 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@...>
Subject: Re: Question For Jimmy B./reading/soloing/fingering

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@q...> wrote:

One; for you Paul, there is a section on syncopation, which would

be in line with your question to Jimmy.

Really? Ted Greene recommends economy picking rather than alternate
picking? And what does syncopation have to do with my question?

In the two books of his that I have, he only briefly mentions that there are
a number of different methods for picking, and that's in chord Chemistry.
One should just choose what is comfortable for them. Maybe he touched on it
more in Vol. 1 of the soloing books, but I don't have that one; skipped right
to Vol. 2. He didn't go into specific right hand technique at all in that
one, either (at least, I haven't seen anything about it in that one, but I
haven't read every word, yet).

AND, I apologize for the confusion. Not having studied any of Jimmy's stuff
(as good an excuse as any), I mistook what you were talking about as a
concept, rather than a specific picking technique problem. You're trying to
play syncopation and the concept isn't a problem, the execution is. I get it
now, and Dan's excellent "Picking" post makes it perfectly clear. But yes,
in my flatpicking days, I used essentially two tools; a relaxed, broad
sweeping motion and a tight, economical single string downward motion for an
each note type of stroke. I'm trying to break my addiction to picks, and am
becoming a full time fingerstylist; so, I'ma gonna shaddup now. :)

Regards,
...z


The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody
appreciates how difficult it was...

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

Scott:

I have also just joined this board and I am in roughly the same place as you, a beginner trying to learn to play jazz guitar. I can briefly tell you what I have been doing and it may help:

1. Learn to read music as quickly as you can. Tabs can get you through some songs but most of the material available for those interested in jazz is only in standard notation. I have found David Oakes MI instruction book helpful. Sal Salvador's Single Note Soloing has a bunch of nice sounding studies for practice.

2. As part of learning to read, memorize scales. I have found that chord scales help here. That is, I practice a scale position up and down the fretboard, ending each scale with the note that is the root of the mode of that position. For example, play a C scale in 3rd position, end the scale on the G note and play a G7; then play a C scale in 5th position, end the scale with A and play an Am7.

3. Learn the chord changes to some jazz standards.

4. Get at least one of the Abersold play-alongs. Volume 1 is a good place to start; the blues and minor blues volumes are pretty good for novice improvisors.

5. Quit your job or school and practice every waking moment ;-)

Bill Macdonald

Hey! Did anyone else notice the Spinal Tap knobs near the end?

thanx,
dave.
*8-o

-- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

A few years ago I started focusing on jazzier techniques,
such as swing eighth notes. I found that all the years I had
spent on economy picking straight sixteenth notes did not
help one bit. There was no way I was going, in less than 10
years of further practice, to learn to make my sweeping

Paul, you hit on something that I have also struggled with. For a
while, I was practicing the Gambale "Speed Picking" technique and I
was also finding that it did not translate over to Jazz for me at
all.

When I started analyzing it more closely, I came to the following
conclusion: the Gambale technique tells you to make your right hand
limp and allow it to "fall freely" from string to string to create
one contiuous motion or sweep. That works for a straight feel where
most of the articulation is at the begining and end of the phrase
with a straight eighth feel during the phrase. But jazz phrasing
requires a lot more subtlety in that some notes have to be played
soft and others hard (or long/short) as Jimmy Bruno said in his
response. Also, especially at slow tempos, precision and swing are
challenging when sweeping.

Instead of allowing the hand to fall on the strings as per Gambale, I
suggest that in Jazz you need to make each picking action an
independent event - that's the only way you can get the resolution
you need to apply dynamics of the sort that people get by slurring. I
learned that by analyzing Joe Pass's picking technique from the 60's.
Joe used something that is neither sweep nor alternate. He had a
simple rule: whenever you change strings, always down-pick (EVEN when
descending). At first that makes no sense, but when you practice it
for a while and think about it, it will begin to make more sense (I
can explain more about this in a separate post if anyone is
interested).

So, my suggestion is to practice sweeping as follows: play a note and
stop short then play the next note. This will flex your forearm
muscle (to stop), but over time you will learn to control that and
extert very little energy while still maintaining control over each
picking event rather than just gross control over a whole sweep. When
I say stop short, I mean that after you hit the string - force the
pick to stop as close as possible to the string you have just hit and
don't let it simply fall to the next string.

For example: hold a chord, and instead of letting your right hand
fall over all strings, try to play each note and stop the pick as
close to the string you just hit as possible, then proceed to the
next note. Do the same thing with scales - very slowly, giving each
note its own independent micro-motion.

This has to go hand-in-hand with a play-relax motion in the left hand
to dampen any strings that you are not picking. For more on the play-
relax technique see Lee Ryan's book:



-Dan

Scott: Try the following sites:
free lessons

The Jam Central Station has some good
backing tracks

Chord changes to numerous
standards

Chord melody
arrangements plus links to other sites

site containing hundreds of links

There are a number of other useful sites but these should help you
out. r/rob taft






--- In jazz_guitar@y..., realgenius@v... wrote:

I just joined this board and have been reading a few posts and felt
like this would be the best place to get advice on starting to

learn

music theory and, above all, jazz guitar. My problem is figuring

out

where to start and places on the internet where I can find lessons,
etc. for free--I've been hunting for a few weeks now and compiling

some

links. I understand everyone is different and has a differnet

amount

of experience, skill level, etc. going into this (and it's hard for

you

all to just say, "oh, start here"), therefore, I am trying to be
patient and commit myself to a daily practice regiment and

understand

that it will take time and I won't sound great from the start,

etc. To

help you a little with background, I understand some of the basic
concepts of theory and have been playing for about 4 years and have
gotten pretty good at rhythm guitar and am currently working on a

few

scales to strengthen and get better use of my pinky finger--and

just

get into the mindset of using all four fingers. I did alright at
learning the chords from "Girl From Ipanema" and can now play that
pretty well and change chords quickly and accurately, etc. I don't
know if this is helping you all any, but I'm trying to give you a

feel

of where I'm at. What I need to know is where I can find what I

need

to learn over the internet (good places to learn from, etc.), what

to

study first (scales, chords, concepts?) and maybe some beginner

songs

to learn and where I might find those tabs. I hope this helps.

Thanks

for your time and if you have any questions, let me know. Take

care.

-Scott
realgenius@v...

I would recommend getting Robert Conti's Source Code book number
4 "The Formula!" - it's one of the most concise and practical
approaches to reharmonization that I've ever seen. The whole book is
basically him taking a number of simple 2-4 bar melodies and showing
you the logic of how and why he reharmonizes it in 10 different ways.
It's all simple stuff (cycle of fifths, tritone, chromatic, minor
3rds, etc.) but the way he presents it makes it very usable.

You can safely skip his other books, although you might want to
consider one of the chord melody arrangement books for more examples.



-Dan

I just joined this board and have been reading a few posts and felt
like this would be the best place to get advice on starting to learn
music theory and, above all, jazz guitar. My problem is figuring out
where to start and places on the internet where I can find lessons,
etc. for free--I've been hunting for a few weeks now and compiling some
links. I understand everyone is different and has a differnet amount
of experience, skill level, etc. going into this (and it's hard for you
all to just say, "oh, start here"), therefore, I am trying to be
patient and commit myself to a daily practice regiment and understand
that it will take time and I won't sound great from the start, etc. To
help you a little with background, I understand some of the basic
concepts of theory and have been playing for about 4 years and have
gotten pretty good at rhythm guitar and am currently working on a few
scales to strengthen and get better use of my pinky finger--and just
get into the mindset of using all four fingers. I did alright at
learning the chords from "Girl From Ipanema" and can now play that
pretty well and change chords quickly and accurately, etc. I don't
know if this is helping you all any, but I'm trying to give you a feel
of where I'm at. What I need to know is where I can find what I need
to learn over the internet (good places to learn from, etc.), what to
study first (scales, chords, concepts?) and maybe some beginner songs
to learn and where I might find those tabs. I hope this helps. Thanks
for your time and if you have any questions, let me know. Take care.
-Scott
realgenius@...

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@q...> wrote:

jazz_guitar@y... wrote:

With regard to Ted Greene's ideas for syncopation in
soloing; he talks about using accents as perhaps the single
most important aspect of polyrhythmic soloing. Start by
accenting the "ands" which gives a nice backbeat feel, and
move the accents around until you find something you like,
and don't be afraid to put two or more together, next to
each other. He also suggests the use of 1/4 note triplets
instead of 1/8th note swing, but watch out for the late
"ones" on the downbeat of the next bar. I guess kinda think
of it as a -. (minus dot) after the downbeat. In other
words, you're gonna get there late, so just feel for it,
don't try to count it.

Something that I benefit from is occasionally going through life with
a pair of drumsticks and a xeroxed page of drum patterns on my person
at all times. Then when I have a couple of minutes of downtime,
stuck in traffic or whatever, I pull out the sticks. Right foot is
kick, left foot is hi-hat, left thigh is snare and right thigh is
either ride cymbal or tom. Practicing drums really helps your sense
of time and gives you all _kinds_ of syncopation ideas that you start
to hear and use on the guitar. To translate drum patterns to guitar,
think of the bass strings as the kick or toms and the open or muted
strum as a snare or cymbal. When you find yourself picking in
perididdles, you'll know you're on your way.

Cheers,
Kevin
www.TheNettles.com

Wow thanks a lot. I just tried that and it sounds great.

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., Randy Groves <bebopguitar@y...> wrote:

Jazzers: I am puzzled. Jimmy Bruno wrote with regard
to sweep picking that:

"I myself cannnot play alternate picking at
all."

How is that possible? Doesn't sweep picking
incorporate alternate picking when playing on the same
string?

Yes it does, and Jimmy does that. It should be clear what he meant,
especially if you've watched his instructional video. Jimmy sweeps
wherever possible. Only Frank Gambale (as far as I know) has
attempted to develop a set of fingerings that absolutely minimizes
the amount of alternate picking needed. Frank uses an odd number of
notes per string when moving in the same direction, and an even
number of notes per string when switching direction. Needless to say,
his pentatonic fingerings are bizarre!

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., kevinj@r... wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., Randy Groves <bebopguitar@y...> wrote:

Jazzers: Well, I took the plunge, bought a bass
(g)string and tuned my Es 150 down a 5th according to
the directions someone posted (thanks to whomever it
was!). (A, D, G, C, E, A)...>

You obviously haven't been reading the guitar magazines lately!

Maybe Randy has, maybe Randy hasn't.

I wrote that in reply to Randy's comment (which you clipped) that
he's suprised the rockers aren't using this tuning. My reply was
meant to imply that indeed they are, big time.

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., kevinj@r... wrote:

A tenor guitar is a four-stringed instrument most often tuned in
fifths. Usually it's tuned CGDA

That's what I thought! My friend has one -- a beautiful instrument!

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@q...> wrote:

One; for you Paul, there is a section on syncopation, which would

be in line with your question to Jimmy.

Really? Ted Greene recommends economy picking rather than alternate
picking? And what does syncopation have to do with my question?

From: Ejazz03@...

For the first part use B13(6th stirng) to

^^^
Bb13

Dm7b5(5th string)(same as B9 without the root).

^^
Bb9

Then for the second part use Eb13(5th string)
to Gm7b5(4th string)(same as E9 without the root).

^^
Eb9

Jazzers: Check out the Master Card ad called "guitar"
or something to that effect. You can check it out at
Adcritic.com



Funny as hell. Randy Groves

=====
J. Randall Groves, Ph.D. ("Rando")
Professor of Humanities
Ferris State University
groves@...
bebopguitar@...

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

You obviously haven't been reading the guitar magazines lately!

He shouldn't have to. This group is more useful glossy publications
stuffed with advertisements.

Paolo

jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Randy Groves <bebopguitar@...>
Subject: sweep/alt picking puzzle

Jazzers: I am puzzled. Jimmy Bruno wrote with regard
to sweep picking that:

"I myself cannnot play alternate picking at
all."

How is that possible? Doesn't sweep picking
incorporate alternate picking when playing on the same
string? One can only "sweep" when changing strings,
right? Or am I really missing something, in which case
I will offer a preliminary "duh!"

Glad Jimmy got back here before he left for his road trip,
but I'll admit I'm puzzled by that, too. Part of the puzzle
is perhaps terminology, with different people calling the
same thing something else..? I'd also like to know what is
meant by "economy picking." I'd think one would be as
economical as possible regardless, to avoid fatigue and/or
missing something by going right past it. What am I missing?

With regard to Ted Greene's ideas for syncopation in
soloing; he talks about using accents as perhaps the single
most important aspect of polyrhythmic soloing. Start by
accenting the "ands" which gives a nice backbeat feel, and
move the accents around until you find something you like,
and don't be afraid to put two or more together, next to
each other. He also suggests the use of 1/4 note triplets
instead of 1/8th note swing, but watch out for the late
"ones" on the downbeat of the next bar. I guess kinda think
of it as a -. (minus dot) after the downbeat. In other
words, you're gonna get there late, so just feel for it,
don't try to count it.

Also, as you said you've been doing Paul, he suggests
starting with a bit of a delayed entrance, playing a tad
behind the beat. Or conversely, anticipating it. It could be
interesting to mix the two. Also as you said, Ted suggests
playing straight eighths over a swing rhythm section and
vice versa. He also touches on rhythmic displacement
(rests), uneven accents, the use of staccato notes, ghost
notes, grace notes, and vibrato to break things up.

From my experience, a decent (simple) swing feel is yielded
by accenting beat three of a somewhat (moderately) uptempo
piece of say 192 or thereabouts. (At least I *think* that's
what I'm doing.) Or, you could sequence the whole thing and
hit "randyomize" on the quantizer. ;)

I suppose part of the problem is after years of doing
something and growing naturally with it, one doesn't
especially notice what they're doing in detail, let alone
what the heck to call it... When I'm soloing, I think more
of a melodic line than anything, if anything at all. It
mostly just "happens." For kicks and grins lately, I've been
working on scale fragments (people seem to be callin' 'em
"arpeggios") to throw in at double time here and there. A
bit of flash is nice now and then, but if it's ALL flash,
there's no moon out at night, no twinkling stars, no flowing
streams, etc. No elk in mating season (scratch that, well,
maybe). A big ol' tree (birdseye) is nice once in a while,
too. :)

Regards,
...z



"Good afternoon Zeek, your Ameritrade Portfolio is worthless." (Ouch!)

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686