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Hi Clif. By masking, do you mean quieter sounds from your amp being covered up by others in the band? Or are you talking about something else entirely?
Chris

patant applied for.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Murray <rmurray@s...> wrote:

...

and Stradivari are worth millions, in some cases. With the guitar,

we have a

relative bargain, plus chicks.

from my perspective anyhow, i think some guitarists are hogging the
chicks!

huey

Clif,

I'm unclear. What is "masking"?

Thanks,

Rick



--- In jazz_guitar@..., "jazzclif" <jurupari@a...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

Clif,

I don't know how worthy of bandwidth my response will be, but I

do

see this differently.

Tone is important to me in two main ways. One is that I care how
others hear my guitar.

I used to, but there's absolutely nothing uniform about an audience
response and there's not much that can ever be done about it.

There's apparently something seriously wrong with EVERYBODY's
playing in somebody's ears, it seems. :o) I think if you get the

tone

you like and you're sayin' something, that's about as far as you

can

take it.


But, probably even more important, is that I

can't play my best unless the guitar sounds "right". If I don't

get

my sound it feels like I'm playing with somebody else's hands. I
can't get comfortable, because every note irritates me.

Predictably,

there are times when I can't stand the sound and the other

musicians

can't figure out what I'm complaining about.

As guitarists we're really prone to that! Usually it's masking.

I've found the best way to get around that for me is to squeeze

the

signal a little bit.

I've used some standing compression for about 25 years now, I
suppose. Presently I use a presonus blue max on commercial gigs and

a

little crate studio unit on solo jazz.

I can get away without it, but it's great for eliminating masking,
and for archtops, it helps control feedback. I don't want to get

into

how since it's complicated, but it does, no kidding.

I do agree, though, that if you had to pick tone vs groove, you'd

go

with groove every time. But, in reality, you don't have to pick
between them, so you might as well pay attention to both.

Also, the guitar players I like all have great tone. Wes, Jim

Hall,

Santana, Knopfler, Metheny, for example, are all guys whose tone

I

love.

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an

album

of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played

by

a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and

melodically

terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I haven't heard that, but my favorite tone of his was the flubbed

one

on the first virtuoso album.

It isn't really dry, though. There's a small amount of reverb and

an

echo image in the non dominant channel.

I don't much care for the tones of any of the guys you mention,
really, but love all their playing to the point I don't really

notice

tone. Jim Hall's seems to change a lot from album to album as I
recall.

I supppose my favorite guitar tone would maybe be Kenny Burrell on
the stuff he did with trane for a 'jazz guitar' sound.

Wes was all over the map with electic tone, and was famous or maybe
notorious in his time for always hating it and continually trying

to

tweak it.

Oscar, my mentor I mentioned was a very Wes-like phraser,a disciple
in a lot of ways, and took apart harmony in a very similar way but
with very different note choices.

One reason he just said to hell with it about tone was because of

his

simpatico with Wes and his identifying with Wes' troubles with

tone.

I know he was just trying to get past all that, but we all have
trouble with masking.

There was even a reference to his tone quest on one of Wes' liner
notes from before he was on Verve. He has recordings with vibrato
and off the back pickup.

It's not that tone isn't important to me, it's seriously important,
but I can get a tone I'm ok with out of about anything I've ever
played, usually by just dialing it in with whatever amp I'm using,
but occasionally like with my cheap guitars, I have to angle the
pickup towards treble to roll off some of the bass to make the

volume

more even.

I'd thought the discussion was more about the relative merits of

high-

end guitars rather than tone, so my comments might not have been on
point.

I don't suppose I feel much different from you, but I've just had a
lot of practice getting the sound I want, and don't equate it to

high-

end guitars, of which I've had more than my share.

I remember a Gretsch Firebird I had that just didn't do it for me
though, so I've got limits, but I've played a '60 strat and 2 '70's
teles and 2 '50's les pauls and a '54 super 4 and a couple of

175's,

one from the '50s and a 1975 I have now, a 335, an epi 350, an

Ibanez

AS200 and the 3 cheap asian guitars I have now, and for jazz, any

of

them was fine, and I could get about the same tone out of any of
them. But I had to get rid of the Gretsch - I just couldn't get it

to

sound right at high volumes.

Clif

John,
Such a nice job of Blue Dove. Where could I get a copy
of the lead sheet please?
Michael

--- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:

My rendition of Jim Hall's adaptation of a Mexican
folk song ... correction web page ...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

Michael LaRue

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Rick_Poll"
<richardipollack@y...> wrote:

Clif,

I don't know how worthy of bandwidth my response will be, but I do
see this differently.

Tone is important to me in two main ways. One is that I care how
others hear my guitar.

I used to, but there's absolutely nothing uniform about an audience
response and there's not much that can ever be done about it.

There's apparently something seriously wrong with EVERYBODY's
playing in somebody's ears, it seems. :o) I think if you get the tone
you like and you're sayin' something, that's about as far as you can
take it.


But, probably even more important, is that I

can't play my best unless the guitar sounds "right". If I don't get
my sound it feels like I'm playing with somebody else's hands. I
can't get comfortable, because every note irritates me.

Predictably,

there are times when I can't stand the sound and the other

musicians

can't figure out what I'm complaining about.

As guitarists we're really prone to that! Usually it's masking.

I've found the best way to get around that for me is to squeeze the
signal a little bit.

I've used some standing compression for about 25 years now, I
suppose. Presently I use a presonus blue max on commercial gigs and a
little crate studio unit on solo jazz.

I can get away without it, but it's great for eliminating masking,
and for archtops, it helps control feedback. I don't want to get into
how since it's complicated, but it does, no kidding.

I do agree, though, that if you had to pick tone vs groove, you'd

go

with groove every time. But, in reality, you don't have to pick
between them, so you might as well pay attention to both.

Also, the guitar players I like all have great tone. Wes, Jim Hall,
Santana, Knopfler, Metheny, for example, are all guys whose tone I
love.

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an album
of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played

by

a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and

melodically

terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I haven't heard that, but my favorite tone of his was the flubbed one
on the first virtuoso album.

It isn't really dry, though. There's a small amount of reverb and an
echo image in the non dominant channel.

I don't much care for the tones of any of the guys you mention,
really, but love all their playing to the point I don't really notice
tone. Jim Hall's seems to change a lot from album to album as I
recall.

I supppose my favorite guitar tone would maybe be Kenny Burrell on
the stuff he did with trane for a 'jazz guitar' sound.

Wes was all over the map with electic tone, and was famous or maybe
notorious in his time for always hating it and continually trying to
tweak it.

Oscar, my mentor I mentioned was a very Wes-like phraser,a disciple
in a lot of ways, and took apart harmony in a very similar way but
with very different note choices.

One reason he just said to hell with it about tone was because of his
simpatico with Wes and his identifying with Wes' troubles with tone.

I know he was just trying to get past all that, but we all have
trouble with masking.

There was even a reference to his tone quest on one of Wes' liner
notes from before he was on Verve. He has recordings with vibrato
and off the back pickup.

It's not that tone isn't important to me, it's seriously important,
but I can get a tone I'm ok with out of about anything I've ever
played, usually by just dialing it in with whatever amp I'm using,
but occasionally like with my cheap guitars, I have to angle the
pickup towards treble to roll off some of the bass to make the volume
more even.

I'd thought the discussion was more about the relative merits of high-
end guitars rather than tone, so my comments might not have been on
point.

I don't suppose I feel much different from you, but I've just had a
lot of practice getting the sound I want, and don't equate it to high-
end guitars, of which I've had more than my share.

I remember a Gretsch Firebird I had that just didn't do it for me
though, so I've got limits, but I've played a '60 strat and 2 '70's
teles and 2 '50's les pauls and a '54 super 4 and a couple of 175's,
one from the '50s and a 1975 I have now, a 335, an epi 350, an Ibanez
AS200 and the 3 cheap asian guitars I have now, and for jazz, any of
them was fine, and I could get about the same tone out of any of
them. But I had to get rid of the Gretsch - I just couldn't get it to
sound right at high volumes.

Clif

i have to respectfully disagree, between the type of strings, pick,
fingers, where the player plucks the strings, tone controls, dynamics,
attack, etc, etc, there is more than enough room to create one's own
sound. and they are for the most part free or relatively inexpensive.

i recently paid particular attention to a jazz recording i happened to
hear on the radio. the artist rarely played a straight note. the vast
majority had some type of inflection, that had much more to do the the
quality of sound than anything else. there were slides from above,
slides from below, bent notes, some were plenty bent and others, less
so, there were notes that were only slightly implied by judicious use
of dynamics and soft attack, notes were played all around and
sometimes on the beat, vibrato or lack of it was apparent in infinite
variety, quickly repeated notes were played but each was subtly or in
some cases not so sublty different, each had a different sound. if one
finds a artist that is unlistenable my guess would be that their is a
mismatch between taste and execution, not gear.

my only conclusion has to be that given the same equipment, any artist
that one finds pleasing would still be found pleasing and any artist
that one finds lacking in some way would still be found lacking. it is
unreasonable to think that one could buy ones way to a successful
sound. or more compellingly that one would be so destitute that their
taste and talent would not prevail.

now that i think about it.. if this is not the case, i'm not sure it
is a goal worthy of pursuit.

huey

My rendition of Jim Hall's adaptation of a Mexican
folk song ... correction web page ...



John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

on 10/1/05 5:38 PM, bebmen at bebmen@... wrote:


Ok, again I agree with you, but the main conclusion of this
discussion is that there is no other way to find that 'own great'
sound without spending thousands on various equipment. Isn't it sad?


Well, a concert pianist plays on instruments costing in the $100,000 area,
and Stradivari are worth millions, in some cases. With the guitar, we have a
relative bargain, plus chicks.

I was told the same thing when I was a freshman/ sophomore in college. I began to sing and breathe like a horn player during my solos. When I ran out of breath - I quit playing. I began to notice that there were times when I was playing in a school setting that I was holding my breath. Deplete the body of oxygen and your muscles get tighter and your time feel begins to get "un-relaxed". Singing and breathing through phrases helped me - it might help you too.

On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:11 PM, Ray East wrote:

Im here at UNF, and Im trying to get all of my stuff together now... A couple of guys have told me that my swing feel is good, but doesnt feel relaxed... what can I do to fix this?

That's a vague criticism to level at someone. It doesn't "feel relaxed"? Says who??And how would they know, since you're the one feeling it? Unless someone can offer some more specific advice, if I were you, I'd blow them off.

There are obvious things to look for, such as your straight technique. Are your hands and body relaxed? Is there any obvious stiffness in your playing and your technique (e.g. Do you have a particularly stiff sounding vibrato?)? If not, then it sounds to me like theirs is a subjective and vague opinion that is pretty much meaningless.

Jeff

Be aware of your breathing. Listen to Wes. Watch videos of Wes, he is smiling, looking out into the audience. Have you seen the videos from Dick and Clif? Though they make faces they are looking out in space...playing naturally...sounding naturally....be at peace.

Gregg

Ray East <ray_d_east@...> wrote:
Im here at UNF, and Im trying to get all of my stuff together now... A couple of guys have told me that my swing feel is good, but doesnt feel relaxed... what can I do to fix this?

Ray

I agree. Pickups especially. How are you going to A-B compare pickups?
The sound of each depends on a number of factors, including the
capacitor values, pot types, and details of setup. By the time you'd
finished soldering in the next one and trying different caps, you'd
have forgotten what the first one sounded like.

I think you probably start with what you've got, or somebody you've
heard whose sound you like and tinker a little at a time. Tough
problem.

One time a guy came out of the audience and offered to buy my entire
rig. Maybe not such a bad approach, unless, of course, the sound is in
the player, not the equipment. And, if that's true, you've gotta try
everything yourself, you can't rely on ads or others' experience or
anything.

And then, just to complicate matters, if your experience is anything
like mine, the exact same gear sounds heavenly in one room and makes
you want to smash and burn it in another.

Rick

I do, and it doesn't affect my playing at all.

I think the ability to get a decent jazz tone using cheap gear is much easier than getting a good tone in, say, blues, or rock.

Jeff

Im here at UNF, and Im trying to get all of my stuff together now... A couple of guys have told me that my swing feel is good, but doesnt feel relaxed... what can I do to fix this?

Ray


---------------------------------
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Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Ok, again I agree with you, but the main conclusion of this
discussion is that there is no other way to find that 'own great'
sound without spending thousands on various equipment. Isn't it sad?

I really think that only you can answer that.

We talk about classic jazz tone. I think that people are generally
referring to something like Wes' sound, not much treble and lots of
warmth. Sometimes called a "round" sound.

But, that sound is a half century old. It's classic and some people
still use it and sound great. But there are lots of great players who
use different sounds entirely. Scofield, Mike Stern and Pat Metheny
quickly come to mind. Why not sound like them? Or better yet,
concentrate on finding your own voice.

The pickup you mentioned is a great choice -- for somebody. Maybe for
you.

Rick


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "bebmen" <bebmen@y...> wrote:

I feel a bit responible for this discusion, since I asked about my

Epi

pups. I agree with Rick, the sound is your goal, and you must find

the

way (equipment) to get it. The point is I have already bought

Seymour

Duncan SH1 59' model. Was it a good decision?

On 10/1/05 4:28 PM, "Rick_Poll" <richardipollack@...> wrote:

Joe Pass is an example of the other side of things. I have an album
of his called Tudo Bem. It's the music I like (Brazilian), played by
a great rhythm section. Joe's stuff is in the pocket and melodically
terrific. But his guitar sounds thin and dry and keeps me from
enjoying the music more.

I have the same problem with a lot of modern jazz records, especially almost
all of the studio stuff I've heard from Metheny (admittedly not a lot, but
still 3 or 4 albums) and people the likes of Frissel. I can hear their
"musical ideas" but I just can't get into a groove with their playing mainly
because of their recorded guitar tone. Thin and effected guitar just doesn't
sound right to me, sort of the way someone
half-singing/half-whispering/half-whining behind a wall of chorus and
reverb doesn't make for the same impact as a Nat Cole or Diana Krall or Ella
or Sinatra vocal. I don't like the lead melodic instrument to be hard to
hear!

<please guys, don't flame me! I'm just calling it like _I_ hear it>

The interesting thing is that I've seen Frissel live once or twice and come
away with a similar impression, but I do dig some of his old stuff with Paul
Motian. I can find examples of Metheny that I do like, but they're mostly
live "unofficial" releases as well.

So maybe I'm a gearhead, like to hear the instrument as much as the
musician, and only dig the energy from live performances where the artist
might take risks that they wouldn't in a studio? Or maybe they just left all
the damn stompboxes at home that night!

I will say that I felt I played better while visiting my big/heavy fender
amps in LA last month. Why? Because I could get a fullness of sound from the
12" combo amps with just the right amount of reverb that my lightweight tube
gear (all 10" speaker combos) here in NJ can't touch. And that was with the
borrowed Epi Joe Pass I was working on, vs. my normal Heritage Eagle that
didn't make the flight.

-mike

My take on Jim Hall's adaption of "Blue Dove," a
Mexican Folk song.



John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- Alisdair MacRae-Birch <akmbirch@...> wrote:

Check out Frank Mele's Errata.pdf in the File
Archive:



or

...somehow for some of us who learned first jazz
chords w/Baker book ...I don't remember when the
correct fingers fell into place ...we just assumed the
fingers were right ... but somewhere the "illogical"
and "un-natural" feel of these errors turned into
"rightness" -- I don't remember where or when that
took place....

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005