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Yosemite has to accommodate a huge amount of people and solving impact problems is difficult. ?Aside from nice toilets LYV is overused, hard packed and not very desirable. ?I suspect this change will just move some of the impact and probably the bears up the trail. ?Maybe they will improve established campsites and add bear boxes to mitigate impact. ?I hope they also direct attention to moving trails out of the meadow drainages and fixing erosion damages. The last time I hiked the trail erosion in long meadow and Lyle canyon was significant.
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On Sep 19, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Will Cronan <wecronan@...> wrote:
? Yes, those disperse areas will be more impacted for sure. (Case in point, the couple of campsites at JMT/Clouds Rest junction i.e. sunrise creek camp). On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 6:17 AM steve herr via <groundhogsteve= [email protected]> wrote: >What happens if someone is tired and hikes a half mile past LYV and
camps say just after the half-dome turn off? Won't we be creating more
campsites instead?
Remember, you have to go beoyond the point of the arrow on this map?
Which means you have to get closer to the Clouds Rest Jct.? The stretch from Half Dome Jct. to Clouds Rest Jct isn't all that long or strenuous.
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I talked to the ranger stationed near Merced Lake in June, he mentioned they were discussing installing bear lockers in the established camp areas between the HD and CR turnoffs. We had really bad rodent problems there this year. Did see a bear
crossing the trail nearby but no issues at camp.
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Yosemite has to accommodate a huge amount of people and solving impact problems is difficult. ?Aside from nice toilets LYV is overused, hard packed and not very desirable. ?I suspect this change will just move some of the impact and probably
the bears up the trail. ?Maybe they will improve established campsites and add bear boxes to mitigate impact. ?I hope they also direct attention to moving trails out of the meadow drainages and fixing erosion damages. The last time I hiked the trail erosion
in long meadow and Lyle canyon was significant.
On Sep 19, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Will Cronan <wecronan@...> wrote:
?
Yes, those disperse areas will be more impacted for sure. (Case in point, the couple of campsites at JMT/Clouds Rest junction i.e. sunrise creek camp).
On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 6:17 AM steve herr via <groundhogsteve= [email protected]> wrote:
>What happens if someone is tired and hikes a half mile past LYV and camps say just after the half-dome turn off? Won't we be creating more campsites instead?
Remember, you have to go beoyond the point of the arrow on this map?
Which means you have to get closer to the Clouds Rest Jct.? The stretch from Half Dome Jct. to Clouds Rest Jct isn't all that long or strenuous.
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Why add bear boxes when everybody is carrying a bear canister? Aren't the of overcrowding human waste and new tent site development?
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...issues of overcrowding...
(too bad you can't edit here)
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Bear boxes have been out there for years. ?The requirement to carry a bear canister likely arose because too many people were using them at some sites, thus necessitating canisters.
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On Sep 19, 2021, at 1:41 PM, fredxz via < fredxz@...> wrote:
Why add bear boxes when everybody is carrying a bear canister? Aren't the of overcrowding human waste and new tent site development?
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Bear canisters were developed and eventually required in many places because the vast majority of locations where people camp are not anywhere near a bear box. But regardless of the original motivation, we don't really need the boxes anymore. What are you going to do, put your bear canister inside?
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Will,
All I meant by “attaching” a Donohue exit permit is that it is a separate exit permit that is issued in conjunction with an entry permit at a specific trailhead within Yosemite.
In other words, you could have an entry permit for Lyell Canyon with or without a Donohue exit permit. ?
For 2022, it appears that Yosemite will only issue Donohue Pass exit permits in conjunction with Lyell Canyon or Happy Isles Pass through entry permits. For 2021 and prior years, the park would also issue Donohue Pass exit permits in conjunction with Happy Isles to Little Yosemite Valley entry permits.
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Sunrise and Glacier Point Trailheads were also an option in years past. Those options are gone now.
Looks like they are shifting as many people to Lyell Canyon as possible to take pressure off Happy Isles (which is a very high use corridor).
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I think you could stop in LYV after your first night out?? I wonder how much of the pressure is also coming from Northbound hikers (JMT and otherwise) that may also stop in LYV to do Half Dome or before heading back down in to Yosemite? Those numbers must be hard to figure.
Carol
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??. Ah, got it. Thanks for clarifying for me.?
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 4:20 PM ravi_jmt2013 < ravi@...> wrote: Will,
All I meant by “attaching” a Donohue exit permit is that it is a separate exit permit that is issued in conjunction with an entry permit at a specific trailhead within Yosemite.
In other words, you could have a permit for Lyell Canyon with or without a Donohue exit permit. ?
For 2022, it appears that Yosemite will only issue Donohue Pass exit permits in conjunction with Lyell Canyon or Happy Isles Pass through entry permits. For 2021 and prior years, the park would also issue Donohue Pass exit permits in conjunction with Happy Isles to Little Yosemite Valley entry permits.
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It may be more helpful not to think of this as attaching a second permit.? There are different permits with different conditions, and this is simply one permit with? a particular park exit location.? Its just space to fill in the permit process, like any other, and a single permit.? That? should not change ( although we haven't seen the actual form yet) although it will only apply at two trailheads now instead of the present 5.
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Peter, I have tried to access Recreation.gov to see the process for Wilderness permits. ?I do not see how to access for Yosemite. It does not come up when searching “Yosemite Wilderness Permits”. ?Grant?
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On Sep 20, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Peter Hirst <peter.p.hirst@...> wrote:
?It may be more helpful not to think of this as attaching a second permit.? There are different permits with different conditions, and this is simply one permit with? a particular park exit location.? Its just space to fill in the permit process, like any other, and a single permit.? That? should not change ( although we haven't seen the actual form yet) although it will only apply at two trailheads now instead of the present 5.
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They won’t be available on recreation.gov until next season. Yosemite Conservancy is still managing Yosemite Permits.
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Interesting to see all the concern about more camping impacts with this change. I have for years talked about increased impacts from having more JMT hikers because of various permit alternatives to get on the trail but haven't gotten much traction from this group and even faced significant push back. It's been clear to me for a while, but this group is clearly concerned with access for the JMT first and foremost, while concerns about impacts are a distance second or third or just lip service for some.
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Since permits with an LYV camping requirement could potentially account for all 20 "non-Lyell" permits in the JMT lottery each day, moving that many bodies from a hardened campsite into dispersed camping is obviously a big change. Yosemite tried to strike a management balance between access and overkill and decided that 45 people per day is the right number. Are you advocating for it to be lower?
On Thursday, 23 September 2021, 03:07:58 pm AEST, gkahn21 via groups.io <gkahn21@...> wrote:
Interesting to see all the concern about more camping impacts with this change. I have for years talked about increased impacts from having more JMT hikers because of various permit alternatives to get on the trail but haven't gotten much traction from this group and even faced significant push back. It's been clear to me for a while, but this group is clearly concerned with access for the JMT first and foremost, while concerns about impacts are a distance second or third or just lip service for some.
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Yosemite significantly tightened the alternates that people were using when the Donohue exit quotas were introduced several years ago. At least in this group, over the years I think that there has been recognition of the need to protect the wilderness. Of course, there are always many posts on how to legally access these public lands within the constraints of the system because the system is complex and can be confusing for people who are navigating it for the first time. These are public lands and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to access public lands for recreation.?
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There's the letter of the law and then there's the spirit of the law. And there's clearly system gaming that goes on in an effort to gain a spot. I think it's human nature to become self-centered when competition increases for scarce resources. It's likely that it will continue to get harder and harder.
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Note that for next year, there will be 15 non-Lyell Donohue exit permits available per day, not 20 as in years past.? And of course all are Happy Isles passthrough permits.? Of these, 9 will be available for advance reservation, and 6 will be allocated to the walk-up pool.? There will be 30 (rather than 25) such Lyell Canyon permits, 18 for advance reservations, 12 for walk-ups.
Since all 15 Happy Isles passthrough permits will also be Half Dome eligible, it's fairly likely that many if not most of these individuals will want to camp near the JMT-Clouds Rest Trail junction.? This is a larger number than I believe currently camps there on a typical night.? Whether this will have a noticeable impact on the area is unknown.
Another aspect of this change is that only 27 Donohue eligible permits will be available for advance reservation through the lottery, rather than 35.? On the other hand, there is a specific walk-up pool for Happy Isles passthrough, and 18 versus 10 walk-up permits overall, perhaps better for (relatively local) people who don't need to incorporate airplanes and rental cars into their JMT plans and thus can afford to be more spontaneous.
I commented about these numbers on the JMT Facebook group a few days ago, in the thread where Inga posted a link to the Yosemite description about changes for 2022.? Perhaps I should elevate that to a post rather than comment in a thread, as some folks who are regular contributors think the allocations will be similar to years past.
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All of us have noticed that human impacts are strongly associated with distance to the trailhead. The vast majority of backpackers on multi day outings are excellent stewards and practice LNT. ?It is rare for me to find trash more than one day from the nearest trailhead. ?I would argue that in many ways we are the least impactful group. The land management challenges are greatest where people get concentrated in the parks. LYV, Tuolumne backpackers camp, sunrise, Lyle forks, Rea lakes etc. ?I personally find the trash and poor stewardship evident near high use areas very disturbing. ? For piece of mind I avoid all of these places as best I can. ?While I understand the desire to complete “the whole” trail I would strongly encourage backpackers to seek alternative routes and eliminate the added stressors associated with these areas. ? Doing so will enhance your experience.
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On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:49 AM, Larry <lhkushi@...> wrote:
? Note that for next year, there will be 15 non-Lyell Donohue exit permits available per day, not 20 as in years past.? And of course all are Happy Isles passthrough permits.? Of these, 9 will be available for advance reservation, and 6 will be allocated to the walk-up pool.? There will be 30 (rather than 25) such Lyell Canyon permits, 18 for advance reservations, 12 for walk-ups.
Since all 15 Happy Isles passthrough permits will also be Half Dome eligible, it's fairly likely that many if not most of these individuals will want to camp near the JMT-Clouds Rest Trail junction.? This is a larger number than I believe currently camps there on a typical night.? Whether this will have a noticeable impact on the area is unknown.
Another aspect of this change is that only 27 Donohue eligible permits will be available for advance reservation through the lottery, rather than 35.? On the other hand, there is a specific walk-up pool for Happy Isles passthrough, and 18 versus 10 walk-up permits overall, perhaps better for (relatively local) people who don't need to incorporate airplanes and rental cars into their JMT plans and thus can afford to be more spontaneous.
I commented about these numbers on the JMT Facebook group a few days ago, in the thread where Inga posted a link to the Yosemite description about changes for 2022.? Perhaps I should elevate that to a post rather than comment in a thread, as some folks who are regular contributors think the allocations will be similar to years past.
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Perhaps a request for public input by the National Park Service before implementing this significant policy change would have been in order. ?Assuming that the change was made for wilderness preservation maybe incorrect. An explanation could go a long way to decrease discord. ?Allowing input would perhaps give an increase perspective to all sides. ?I know that with the Toulumne Drainage improvement plan allowing input helped the process. Even if it felt that some concerns were minimized. ?Grant.?
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On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:00 AM, fredxz via groups.io <fredxz@...> wrote:
?There's the letter of the law and then there's the spirit of the law. And there's clearly system gaming that goes on in an effort to gain a spot. I think it's human nature to become self-centered when competition increases for scarce resources. It's likely that it will continue to get harder and harder.
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