On Apr 23, 2023, at 00:29, Lange Jorstad via groups.io <langejorstad@...> wrote:

?Might be a good year for MOBO’s - do half the trail and come out before the bridge, then get a second permit to do the other part of the trail from a different trailhead (acknowledging that “second permits” may be in low supply if everyone is doing some variation of this, but might need to think laterally regarding trailheads and itineraries).?

Or learn how to packraft and float on by the damaged bridge!

On 22 Apr 2023, at 11:53 am, Ed Thoits <ecthoits@...> wrote:

?

Please don't just consider ignoring the permit rules.? If everyone does that, the area will be overrun?and the wilderness?adversely?impacted..? Wait to see what transpires. If the bridge remains out and no permits for work arounds are available, consider just doing a segment and exploring other areas off the JMT while you're on it..? You'll enjoy it. Too much emphasis?is put on completing the trail all in one shot. Please respect the permit process.?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 6:45?PM Karina Bezkrovnaia via <kbezkrovnaia=[email protected]> wrote:

There isn’t single Bishop pass permit in July - beginning of August. It is extremely competitive TH. I have Piute P permit. It was my original entry before bridge news. Going that way is completely redundant now.
So I was planning just start at South Lake and go for force major case with a ranger. Given the historic snow year they might consider. It is impossible to get a Bishop pass entry for all in need.

Karina Bezkrovnaia

> On Apr 21, 2023, at 18:25, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:
>
> ?Regarding the possible SOBO hiker reroute over Piute Pass to North Lake, then out of South Lake over Bishop Pass (or the reverse if NOBO)
>
> In 2002 we wanted to do the North Lake-South Lake loop over Muir pass. We were two people with three llamas so we wanted to do it without a shuttle between North and South Lake.
> So we had to get two permits (not an easy task).? The first permit for Tyee Lakes, and the second, the next day, for North Lake.? We parked at Tyee Lakes, hiked over Table Mountain and camped at George Lake, then hiked down to the Lake Sabrina trail, to the Sabrina trailhead, then Road walked to North lake and started the loop,over Piute Pass to the JMT.? We spent about a week going around the loop, over Muir Pass and Bishop pass, and back to South Lake, then roadwalked back to our parking spot at Tyee trailhead.? It was an elegant solution to the shuttle problem.? If a shuttle between lakes isn't available, some hikers might want to walk this route between the lakes. More trail time, less road walking or hitching.
> It remains to be seen what the FS will do about permissions to reroute.
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 04/22/2023 10:11 PM Chris Armstrong <sacarmstrong@...> wrote:

?

?

Seems plausible some dynamic force is the cause but hard to imagine an avalanche was the culprit as there is no damage to even the smallest of trees in the photos.?

On 04/22/2023 10:11 PM Chris Armstrong <sacarmstrong@...> wrote:

Seems plausible some dynamic force is the cause but hard to imagine an avalanche was the culprit as there is no damage to even the smallest of trees in the photos.?

On 22 Apr 2023, at 11:53 am, Ed Thoits <ecthoits@...> wrote:

?

Please don't just consider ignoring the permit rules.? If everyone does that, the area will be overrun?and the wilderness?adversely?impacted..? Wait to see what transpires. If the bridge remains out and no permits for work arounds are available, consider just doing a segment and exploring other areas off the JMT while you're on it..? You'll enjoy it. Too much emphasis?is put on completing the trail all in one shot. Please respect the permit process.?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 6:45?PM Karina Bezkrovnaia via <kbezkrovnaia=[email protected]> wrote:

There isn’t single Bishop pass permit in July - beginning of August. It is extremely competitive TH. I have Piute P permit. It was my original entry before bridge news. Going that way is completely redundant now.
So I was planning just start at South Lake and go for force major case with a ranger. Given the historic snow year they might consider. It is impossible to get a Bishop pass entry for all in need.

Karina Bezkrovnaia

> On Apr 21, 2023, at 18:25, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:
>
> ?Regarding the possible SOBO hiker reroute over Piute Pass to North Lake, then out of South Lake over Bishop Pass (or the reverse if NOBO)
>
> In 2002 we wanted to do the North Lake-South Lake loop over Muir pass. We were two people with three llamas so we wanted to do it without a shuttle between North and South Lake.
> So we had to get two permits (not an easy task).? The first permit for Tyee Lakes, and the second, the next day, for North Lake.? We parked at Tyee Lakes, hiked over Table Mountain and camped at George Lake, then hiked down to the Lake Sabrina trail, to the Sabrina trailhead, then Road walked to North lake and started the loop,over Piute Pass to the JMT.? We spent about a week going around the loop, over Muir Pass and Bishop pass, and back to South Lake, then roadwalked back to our parking spot at Tyee trailhead.? It was an elegant solution to the shuttle problem.? If a shuttle between lakes isn't available, some hikers might want to walk this route between the lakes. More trail time, less road walking or hitching.
> It remains to be seen what the FS will do about permissions to reroute.
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 23 Apr 2023, at 4:41 am, Karina Bezkrovnaia via groups.io <kbezkrovnaia@...> wrote:

?Ravi,

Whether continued entrance interrupted by the road will be allowed remain to be seen.

That if not it will send hundreds of people into uncharted terrains - for sure. Worse even - this is the year when all that is the most dangerous situation one could think of. People saving weigh without traction devises, or not knowing how to use it… when there wouldn’t be “ boot tracks” as one must make his own path and no “ FarOut” guidance over “ normally ?existing” trail is. Many state that they launch on JMT as their first serious long range backpacking and going over snowy talus can be deadly if you don’t know how and even if you do.

I remember undergoing very rigorous interview with Sierra club leaders when signing for guided trip over Palisades high alpine terrain and farther into Muir Pass area.

Some have no idea what those “ detours” mean in terms of mileage combined with suncups, ice sheets, postholing and getting stuck between snow and large boulders when sun creates sort of tunnels around them and EG with huge pack.

I recall someone dying August 24th I think on Mather in 2019 on a very last patch of snow … I was there earlier and Mather certainly is not as uncharted as any of the suggested cols.

Lizzy’s and Ned’s info is extraordinary, but those people are Gods of backcountry. With lifelong navigational knowledge.

I should ask our dear John Ladd to state a % of people who are basically first timers on that terrain based on his survey.

Bishop pass permits are booked solid into September with 60% released.

We shall see a war over other 40% remaining I imagine.

I hope we won’t see voluminous SOS calls and SAR reports. But…

My far more than 2 cents ??

Karina Bezkrovnaia

On Apr 22, 2023, at 10:38, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:

?

I have done the Tyee hike and it's quite doable and scenic, as described in my earlier email.? Good solution for those who want to avoid a lotta road walking, hitching or arranging a shuttle.??

On Apr 22, 2023 10:23 AM, ravi_jmt2013 <ravi@...> wrote:

The option of going over Piute Pass to North Lake and then going from South Lake over Bishop Pass certainly seems like the safest option, and it could even be done with either a road walk or via Tyee Lakes (I’ve never done the Tyee Lakes hike) for those who want a continuous footprint hike…

But will the rangers allow for this option on the same wilderness permit? I suspect not. This definitely doesn’t seem like a good year for risky options for those not used to off trail travel and crossing without that bridge seems like a total nonstarter especially this year….

On 23 Apr 2023, at 12:02 pm, Mike Sherman <msherman55@...> wrote:

?

I'm reading the photo as:

-right (downstream) handrail buckled and kinked outwards severely, twisting the bridge

-left handrail rotated about 45 degrees in the middle, with perhaps a kink in the middle of the deck (seen in the shadow in the river)

-seems still anchored on both abutments.

I agree that it still seems quite above the river. I doubt it is safe to cross. Restoring steel that has been severely kinked like this seems like quite a challenge, especially in the backcountry.

I'm quite curious how such a seemingly robust bridge could fail like this; it seemed to be in good shape when I crossed it last summer. Does anybody have any ideas on if/when/where an official report might be published? If this could fail, what about the other bridges that have similar designs?

Luckily, failed steel bridges often retain clues that allow reconstruction of the collapse. Such was the case in 2007 when the I35 bridge here in Minneapolis dropped into the Mississippi river.

Mike Sherman

On 04/22/2023 7:54 PM Chris Armstrong <sacarmstrong@...> wrote:

Ok, admitedlly pure speculation on may part but I've zoomed in on the picture of the SFSJ River bridge and to me, it looks like the bridge is still suspended well above the river. From the overhead shot it looks to be sitting in the river itself but look at the shadow of the bridge and it appears that is not the case. Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Did just the downstream sided railing fail? Certainly it's gonna take folks getting in there to know for sure, and perhaps its in a precarious condition regardless, but perhaps a ray of hope?

<Screenshot_20230422_173511_Facebook.jpg>

On 04/22/2023 7:54 PM Chris Armstrong <sacarmstrong@...> wrote:

Ok, admitedlly pure speculation on may part but I've zoomed in on the picture of the SFSJ River bridge and to me, it looks like the bridge is still suspended well above the river. From the overhead shot it looks to be sitting in the river itself but look at the shadow of the bridge and it appears that is not the case. Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Did just the downstream sided railing fail? Certainly it's gonna take folks getting in there to know for sure, and perhaps its in a precarious condition regardless, but perhaps a ray of hope?

On Apr 22, 2023, at 18:18, Chris Armstrong <sacarmstrong@...> wrote:

?Ok, admitedlly pure speculation on may part but I've zoomed in on the picture of the SFSJ River bridge and to me, it looks like the bridge is still suspended well above the river. From the overhead shot it looks to be sitting in the river itself but look at the shadow of the bridge and it appears that is not the case. Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Did just the downstream sided railing fail? Certainly it's gonna take folks getting in there to know for sure, and perhaps its in a precarious condition regardless, but perhaps a ray of hope?

<Screenshot_20230422_173511_Facebook.jpg>

On Apr 22, 2023, at 10:38, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:

?

I have done the Tyee hike and it's quite doable and scenic, as described in my earlier email.? Good solution for those who want to avoid a lotta road walking, hitching or arranging a shuttle.??

On Apr 22, 2023 10:23 AM, ravi_jmt2013 <ravi@...> wrote:

The option of going over Piute Pass to North Lake and then going from South Lake over Bishop Pass certainly seems like the safest option, and it could even be done with either a road walk or via Tyee Lakes (I’ve never done the Tyee Lakes hike) for those who want a continuous footprint hike…

But will the rangers allow for this option on the same wilderness permit? I suspect not. This definitely doesn’t seem like a good year for risky options for those not used to off trail travel and crossing without that bridge seems like a total nonstarter especially this year….