On Apr 22, 2023, at 10:38, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:

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I have done the Tyee hike and it's quite doable and scenic, as described in my earlier email.? Good solution for those who want to avoid a lotta road walking, hitching or arranging a shuttle.??

On Apr 22, 2023 10:23 AM, ravi_jmt2013 <ravi@...> wrote:

The option of going over Piute Pass to North Lake and then going from South Lake over Bishop Pass certainly seems like the safest option, and it could even be done with either a road walk or via Tyee Lakes (I’ve never done the Tyee Lakes hike) for those who want a continuous footprint hike…

But will the rangers allow for this option on the same wilderness permit? I suspect not. This definitely doesn’t seem like a good year for risky options for those not used to off trail travel and crossing without that bridge seems like a total nonstarter especially this year….

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My recollection is that it is a bit hairy at the top along the side of some lakes and talus slopes right into the lake and with snow?? Or is that elsewhere?

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There seems to be something of dismissal of the western bypass alternative using Hell For Sure Pass. ?(From MTR, drop down to Florence, climb to Thompson Pass, then Hell for Sure Pass, drop down into Goddard Canyon, and connect with the JMT near the confluence of Evolution Creek and the S. Fork of the San Joaquin.)? I’m curious why.? That’s not a complaint. ?It’s a request for more information.?

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I raise it because my partial experience up there is positive.? Hell For Sure Pass today has a fine trail going over.? Presumably it was a problem for Little Joe LeConte when he tried to take his mules over it the first time, but the trail builders fixed that.? The only qualm I’d have today is that a big influx of hikers would likely do some damage to the moist, flowery area at the bottom of the final climb. ?When I was up there in 2018, I was doing , however, so I’ve not done the whole connection necessary for the bypass.? From what I’ve seen on both ends, I’d expect the Goddard Canyon side to be fine.? Is there a problem connecting the Hell for Sure area with Florence Lake via the Hot Springs, Thompson Pass, and Reddy’s Hole Trails? Does anyone have first-hand experience (or even a direct second-hand report) with these?? ?

On Apr 21, 2023, at 18:53, Ed Thoits <ecthoits@...> wrote:

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Please don't just consider ignoring the permit rules.? If everyone does that, the area will be overrun?and the wilderness?adversely?impacted..? Wait to see what transpires. If the bridge remains out and no permits for work arounds are available, consider just doing a segment and exploring other areas off the JMT while you're on it..? You'll enjoy it. Too much emphasis?is put on completing the trail all in one shot. Please respect the permit process.?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 6:45?PM Karina Bezkrovnaia via <kbezkrovnaia=[email protected]> wrote:

There isn’t single Bishop pass permit in July - beginning of August. It is extremely competitive TH. I have Piute P permit. It was my original entry before bridge news. Going that way is completely redundant now.
So I was planning just start at South Lake and go for force major case with a ranger. Given the historic snow year they might consider. It is impossible to get a Bishop pass entry for all in need.

Karina Bezkrovnaia

> On Apr 21, 2023, at 18:25, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:
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> ?Regarding the possible SOBO hiker reroute over Piute Pass to North Lake, then out of South Lake over Bishop Pass (or the reverse if NOBO)
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> In 2002 we wanted to do the North Lake-South Lake loop over Muir pass. We were two people with three llamas so we wanted to do it without a shuttle between North and South Lake.
> So we had to get two permits (not an easy task).? The first permit for Tyee Lakes, and the second, the next day, for North Lake.? We parked at Tyee Lakes, hiked over Table Mountain and camped at George Lake, then hiked down to the Lake Sabrina trail, to the Sabrina trailhead, then Road walked to North lake and started the loop,over Piute Pass to the JMT.? We spent about a week going around the loop, over Muir Pass and Bishop pass, and back to South Lake, then roadwalked back to our parking spot at Tyee trailhead.? It was an elegant solution to the shuttle problem.? If a shuttle between lakes isn't available, some hikers might want to walk this route between the lakes. More trail time, less road walking or hitching.
> It remains to be seen what the FS will do about permissions to reroute.
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There seems to be something of dismissal of the western bypass alternative using Hell For Sure Pass. ?(From MTR, drop down to Florence, climb to Thompson Pass, then Hell for Sure Pass, drop down into Goddard Canyon, and connect with the JMT near the confluence of Evolution Creek and the S. Fork of the San Joaquin.)? I’m curious why.? That’s not a complaint. ?It’s a request for more information.?

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I raise it because my partial experience up there is positive.? Hell For Sure Pass today has a fine trail going over.? Presumably it was a problem for Little Joe LeConte when he tried to take his mules over it the first time, but the trail builders fixed that.? The only qualm I’d have today is that a big influx of hikers would likely do some damage to the moist, flowery area at the bottom of the final climb. ?When I was up there in 2018, I was doing , however, so I’ve not done the whole connection necessary for the bypass.? From what I’ve seen on both ends, I’d expect the Goddard Canyon side to be fine.? Is there a problem connecting the Hell for Sure area with Florence Lake via the Hot Springs, Thompson Pass, and Reddy’s Hole Trails? Does anyone have first-hand experience (or even a direct second-hand report) with these?? ?

On Apr 21, 2023, at 18:25, Marion Davison <mardav@...> wrote:

?Regarding the possible SOBO hiker reroute over Piute Pass to North Lake, then out of South Lake over Bishop Pass (or the reverse if NOBO)

In 2002 we wanted to do the North Lake-South Lake loop over Muir pass. We were two people with three llamas so we wanted to do it without a shuttle between North and South Lake.
So we had to get two permits (not an easy task). The first permit for Tyee Lakes, and the second, the next day, for North Lake. We parked at Tyee Lakes, hiked over Table Mountain and camped at George Lake, then hiked down to the Lake Sabrina trail, to the Sabrina trailhead, then Road walked to North lake and started the loop,over Piute Pass to the JMT. We spent about a week going around the loop, over Muir Pass and Bishop pass, and back to South Lake, then roadwalked back to our parking spot at Tyee trailhead. It was an elegant solution to the shuttle problem. If a shuttle between lakes isn't available, some hikers might want to walk this route between the lakes. More trail time, less road walking or hitching.
It remains to be seen what the FS will do about permissions to reroute.

On 22 Apr 2023, at 6:35 am, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

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Ned Tibbits from Facebook:

PCT/JMT SEKI damaged bridge re-routes:

The online, greater hiking community contains many wise and savvy professionals who are great at figuring out the possible re-routes around this bridge outage. There are incredible statisticians, technicians, cartographers, and expeditionaries in this community who have far more resources and experience with these matters than I do. And, I'm sure the USFS and NPS will chime in with their suggested choices or regulate where you can go to solve this problem...but there is a bridge over the South Fork of the San Jouquin (SFSJ) River that got damaged this winter and is no longer safe for hikers to use!

Nevertheless, this is how I see the NoBo (if you're SoBo through the area, consider these choices in reverse) re-route choices around this damaged bridge on the PCT/JMT:

1) Bishop Pass/Piute Pass go-around:

Obviously, this puppy will add tons of elevation gain and loss to go over two major east-west Sierra passes, additional time, and, maybe, even some road walking to pull off...but it would all be on established trails and surfaces along the way. No major creek crossings without intact bridges, but lots of little ones to wade through.

2) Wanda-Davis cross-country to the SFSJ River in Goddard Canyon:

With this one, hikers have to be savvy with route-finding, as there is no graded trail to follow, but the general direction is pretty straight-forward. There will be, either, lots of snow-ramps or boulders, bushes, and brief cliffs to negotiate, depending on the time of the spring/summer you are there. If you are comfortable in knowing where you are based on topographic awareness (do you know where you are based on what you see around you?), this isn't a bad choice, but...

a) getting around Davis Lake's steep, lakeside talus fields may not be the easiest,

b) if you cross Goddard Creek, the broken bridge, down below, is your only way back across the SFSJ river - so not good!

c) if you don't cross Goddard Creek where Davis's outflow drains into it and stay on the east side all the way down the drainage, you'll have to cross Evolution Creek below the cascades - maybe not possible!

3) stay on the NoBo PCT/JMT into Evolution Valley and at the summer crossing attempt a risky east-side-of-the-cascades cross-country descent into the SFSJ drainage to reconnect with the trail at the bridge. I do not recommend this alternate as it is very steep and over hazardous surfaces. It is short and tempting, but not worth a slip and fall! This is an option, only, but let's rule this one out!

4) again, stay on the NoBo PCT/JMT into and through Evolution Valley, make the deep wade of the creek in the meadow, and catch the summer trail down the west side of the cascades and on down to the SFSJ drainage...but don't cross on the intact bridge. Stay on the east side of the SFSJ river and attempt to re-cross Evolution Creek below the cascades, then follow the east side of the SFSJ river on down to the damaged bridge (which you won't have to cross).

Review:

The only re-route that is appropriate for basic backpackers is #1, the Bishop Pass/Piute Pass graded hiking trail and established road walks between the two pass's trailheads. It offers beautiful scenery, that is for sure, but it will take longer, require more fuel and food, and may mess with your permit (I have no clue), but it is the safest route to take with the least snow-hiking and creek crossing. If you plan for this re-route and are savvy with over-snow travel and making safe "creek" (not "river") crossings (which you have probably had to do just to get there this year's hiking season after such a huge winter), you will enjoy this alternate route.

All the other alternate route choices will involve cross-country experience over potentially steep and dangerous snow and boulders, lots of little creek crossings, and a potentially impossible crossing of Evolution Creek below its cascades and near the main flow of the SFSJ river.

I'm sure SEKI and Inyo will chime in on what they want you to do, so wait for that and plan accordingly. Of course, you can always skip doing the JMT this summer and go take a cruise, instead...

Now...there are two other cross-country re-routes that are harder, but any evaluation of possibilities would not be complete without them, so here goes,

a) by doing 2b and 4, above, you can access the Hell-for-Sure Pass trail out of upper Goddard canyon and over to the western slope to continue, then, north and cross-country past Red Mountain and Mount Henry, walking by Lower and Upper Indian Lakes, to slide through an unnamed pass above the Muir Trail Ranch. Sounds simple, but you'll have to ford the mighty SFSJ River (to the north and below that unnamed pass) where its flow rate and volume may be horrendous. This is a viable route with a rough ending.

b) staying on the NoBo PCT/JMT past options #1 & 2, depart the trail near the outflow of Evolution Lake and head cross-country northwest, up into Darwin Basin to make the short, but steep climb over Alpine Col to drop down onto Goethe Lake, cruise through Humphrey's Basin, and descend Piute Creek to reconnect with the PCT/JMT just north of the broken bridge at the Park Boundary, right before Muir Trail Ranch. This is as viable a cross-country route as #2, but without the potentially deadly crossing of Evolution Creek below its cascades. It is better than #2, but it does have a pretty steep ascent/descent through Alpine Col to negotiate. Not for your average backpacker.

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On Apr 21, 2023, at 4:08 PM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:

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Elizabeth Wenk's comment on my quotation of "her" report on Lamarck Col talus:

"Hm... I read this just now John Ladd and those didn't feel like my words - that is one of the hikes Mike White wrote for the current edition of Sierra South. I actually disagree about that - there are long sections of trail (even build trail) on the?descent and otherwise you're mostly on sand between boulders, outcrops. Where I think Lamarck Col will be dangerous this year is getting around the uppermost lakes, where you really are working your way through some mid-large talus blocks right at the water's edge. But mainly it is a long way down to the North Lake Trailhead, only to immediately reverse again.

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There seems to be something of dismissal of the western bypass alternative using Hell For Sure Pass. ?(From MTR, drop down to Florence, climb to Thompson Pass, then Hell for Sure Pass, drop down into Goddard Canyon, and connect with the JMT near the confluence of Evolution Creek and the S. Fork of the San Joaquin.)? I’m curious why.? That’s not a complaint. ?It’s a request for more information.?

?

I raise it because my partial experience up there is positive.? Hell For Sure Pass today has a fine trail going over.? Presumably it was a problem for Little Joe LeConte when he tried to take his mules over it the first time, but the trail builders fixed that.? The only qualm I’d have today is that a big influx of hikers would likely do some damage to the moist, flowery area at the bottom of the final climb. ?When I was up there in 2018, I was doing , however, so I’ve not done the whole connection necessary for the bypass.? From what I’ve seen on both ends, I’d expect the Goddard Canyon side to be fine.? Is there a problem connecting the Hell for Sure area with Florence Lake via the Hot Springs, Thompson Pass, and Reddy’s Hole Trails? Does anyone have first-hand experience (or even a direct second-hand report) with these?? ?