Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Can you provide the specific links to the pages you are referring to?? This is really hard to follow second-hand
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Can you link us to where you are seeing these numbers?? I haven't seen them, and they did not come up in the zoom call.
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Re: Donahue Pass Conditions
Here's a satellite image from September 18. Hope it helps.
Direct link:
664815&lng=-119.24719333648682&zoom=15&preset=1-NATURAL-COLOR&layers=B01,B02
,B03&maxcc=100&gain=1.0&gamma=1.0&time=2021-03-01%7C2021-09-18&atmFilter=&sh
owDates=false
There should be a fresh image today or tomorrow, but I don't think the water
situation will have changed much.
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Rick Amr Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 10:23 To: [email protected]Subject: [JMT-groups.io] Donahue Pass Conditions Hi All, I am planning on heading up to Donahue Peak this weekend and do wonder if anyone knows if that little lake near Donahue Pass still has water? Next opportunity would be the slightly larger lake just below Lyell Glacier and I am assuming there still is water. Thanks, Rick
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Perhaps a request for public input by the National Park Service before implementing this significant policy change would have been in order. ?Assuming that the change was made for wilderness preservation maybe incorrect. An explanation could go a long way to decrease discord. ?Allowing input would perhaps give an increase perspective to all sides. ?I know that with the Toulumne Drainage improvement plan allowing input helped the process. Even if it felt that some concerns were minimized. ?Grant.?
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On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:00 AM, fredxz via groups.io <fredxz@...> wrote:
?There's the letter of the law and then there's the spirit of the law. And there's clearly system gaming that goes on in an effort to gain a spot. I think it's human nature to become self-centered when competition increases for scarce resources. It's likely that it will continue to get harder and harder.
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Hi All,
I am planning on heading up to Donahue Peak this weekend and do wonder if anyone knows if that little lake near Donahue Pass still has water? Next opportunity would be the slightly larger lake just below Lyell Glacier and I am assuming there still is water.
Thanks,
Rick
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
All of us have noticed that human impacts are strongly associated with distance to the trailhead. The vast majority of backpackers on multi day outings are excellent stewards and practice LNT. ?It is rare for me to find trash more than one day from the nearest trailhead. ?I would argue that in many ways we are the least impactful group. The land management challenges are greatest where people get concentrated in the parks. LYV, Tuolumne backpackers camp, sunrise, Lyle forks, Rea lakes etc. ?I personally find the trash and poor stewardship evident near high use areas very disturbing. ? For piece of mind I avoid all of these places as best I can. ?While I understand the desire to complete “the whole” trail I would strongly encourage backpackers to seek alternative routes and eliminate the added stressors associated with these areas. ? Doing so will enhance your experience.
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On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:49 AM, Larry <lhkushi@...> wrote:
? Note that for next year, there will be 15 non-Lyell Donohue exit permits available per day, not 20 as in years past.? And of course all are Happy Isles passthrough permits.? Of these, 9 will be available for advance reservation, and 6 will be allocated to the walk-up pool.? There will be 30 (rather than 25) such Lyell Canyon permits, 18 for advance reservations, 12 for walk-ups.
Since all 15 Happy Isles passthrough permits will also be Half Dome eligible, it's fairly likely that many if not most of these individuals will want to camp near the JMT-Clouds Rest Trail junction.? This is a larger number than I believe currently camps there on a typical night.? Whether this will have a noticeable impact on the area is unknown.
Another aspect of this change is that only 27 Donohue eligible permits will be available for advance reservation through the lottery, rather than 35.? On the other hand, there is a specific walk-up pool for Happy Isles passthrough, and 18 versus 10 walk-up permits overall, perhaps better for (relatively local) people who don't need to incorporate airplanes and rental cars into their JMT plans and thus can afford to be more spontaneous.
I commented about these numbers on the JMT Facebook group a few days ago, in the thread where Inga posted a link to the Yosemite description about changes for 2022.? Perhaps I should elevate that to a post rather than comment in a thread, as some folks who are regular contributors think the allocations will be similar to years past.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Note that for next year, there will be 15 non-Lyell Donohue exit permits available per day, not 20 as in years past.? And of course all are Happy Isles passthrough permits.? Of these, 9 will be available for advance reservation, and 6 will be allocated to the walk-up pool.? There will be 30 (rather than 25) such Lyell Canyon permits, 18 for advance reservations, 12 for walk-ups.
Since all 15 Happy Isles passthrough permits will also be Half Dome eligible, it's fairly likely that many if not most of these individuals will want to camp near the JMT-Clouds Rest Trail junction.? This is a larger number than I believe currently camps there on a typical night.? Whether this will have a noticeable impact on the area is unknown.
Another aspect of this change is that only 27 Donohue eligible permits will be available for advance reservation through the lottery, rather than 35.? On the other hand, there is a specific walk-up pool for Happy Isles passthrough, and 18 versus 10 walk-up permits overall, perhaps better for (relatively local) people who don't need to incorporate airplanes and rental cars into their JMT plans and thus can afford to be more spontaneous.
I commented about these numbers on the JMT Facebook group a few days ago, in the thread where Inga posted a link to the Yosemite description about changes for 2022.? Perhaps I should elevate that to a post rather than comment in a thread, as some folks who are regular contributors think the allocations will be similar to years past.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
There's the letter of the law and then there's the spirit of the law. And there's clearly system gaming that goes on in an effort to gain a spot. I think it's human nature to become self-centered when competition increases for scarce resources. It's likely that it will continue to get harder and harder.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Yosemite significantly tightened the alternates that people were using when the Donohue exit quotas were introduced several years ago. At least in this group, over the years I think that there has been recognition of the need to protect the wilderness. Of course, there are always many posts on how to legally access these public lands within the constraints of the system because the system is complex and can be confusing for people who are navigating it for the first time. These are public lands and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to access public lands for recreation.?
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Since permits with an LYV camping requirement could potentially account for all 20 "non-Lyell" permits in the JMT lottery each day, moving that many bodies from a hardened campsite into dispersed camping is obviously a big change. Yosemite tried to strike a management balance between access and overkill and decided that 45 people per day is the right number. Are you advocating for it to be lower?
On Thursday, 23 September 2021, 03:07:58 pm AEST, gkahn21 via groups.io <gkahn21@...> wrote:
Interesting to see all the concern about more camping impacts with this change. I have for years talked about increased impacts from having more JMT hikers because of various permit alternatives to get on the trail but haven't gotten much traction from this group and even faced significant push back. It's been clear to me for a while, but this group is clearly concerned with access for the JMT first and foremost, while concerns about impacts are a distance second or third or just lip service for some.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Interesting to see all the concern about more camping impacts with this change. I have for years talked about increased impacts from having more JMT hikers because of various permit alternatives to get on the trail but haven't gotten much traction from this group and even faced significant push back. It's been clear to me for a while, but this group is clearly concerned with access for the JMT first and foremost, while concerns about impacts are a distance second or third or just lip service for some.
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Re: Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney
We have a couple staff at Onion Valley station. Trying to get Ranger's cabin stocked for Snow Survey team .
Didn't go up Kearsarge today with Pack animals (9.22) as scheduled due to thick smoke at Kearsarge trailhead.? ?Will be able to provide a ride to Indy if someone needs help.
We hope smoke abates a bit so we can Pack supplies in 9.23.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
They won’t be available on recreation.gov until next season. Yosemite Conservancy is still managing Yosemite Permits.
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Re: Yosemite permits on recreation.gov
Peter, I have tried to access Recreation.gov to see the process for Wilderness permits. ?I do not see how to access for Yosemite. It does not come up when searching “Yosemite Wilderness Permits”. ?Grant?
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On Sep 20, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Peter Hirst <peter.p.hirst@...> wrote:
?It may be more helpful not to think of this as attaching a second permit.? There are different permits with different conditions, and this is simply one permit with? a particular park exit location.? Its just space to fill in the permit process, like any other, and a single permit.? That? should not change ( although we haven't seen the actual form yet) although it will only apply at two trailheads now instead of the present 5.
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While I have not hiked in October, I have hiked in early season conditions. In 2015, we had a very low snow year leaving little snowpack by mid May and a clear path for northbound PCTers. But a few late season storms left unconsolidated snow making travel difficult and similar to what I’d expect the first snows of the fall would be like. The new snow made my Whitney summit attempt difficult and had to abort it. And I judged Forester Pass too dangerous to cross and bailed out over what turned out to be a hazardous descent over Shepherd Pass. I took a week off before resuming my hike. I definitely agree that great caution should be used hiking at times of the year when new snow could obscure the trail. I was not prepared for the conditions, as would be the case for most summer season hikers with lightweight gear.?
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Re: Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney
Sounds like your brother might be Charlotte Lake. What a wonderful place. My heart breaks… ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Timothy Fannin Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2021 19:39 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [JMT-groups.io] Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney ? Smoke has gotten worse through the day.? He's staying at a lake tonight 1000 feet under the pass and planning on going out Kearsarge Wednesday morning.
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Re: Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney
Smoke has gotten worse through the day.? He's staying at a lake tonight 1000 feet under the pass and planning on going out Kearsarge Wednesday morning.
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Re: Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney
If he needs to bail, he may want to consider exiting over Kearsarge rather than turning around.? The trailhead at Onion Valley is a relatively easy location for getting a ride to Independence or Lone Pine, and then to where he need to go from there.? It is along way and 3 high passes back to a good trail and convenient trailhead, which would be Bishop Pass to South Lake. If he has transport available on the west side, Roads End/Cedar Grove is apparently still open, and is an easy 12 miles or so down Bubbs Creek from the same Kearsarge/Charlotte Junction, but no public transportation and a much longer ride to any public transit from there.
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Re: Smoke Conditions Approaching Whitney
Thanks for the info.? If others are interested: I got a report back from his sat phone that smoke is getting worse in the area where Kearsarge pass trail hits the JMT.? He may turn around.? He talked to a Ranger and Wednesday the winds are going to change and potentially bring more smoke in.? Near term prospects don't look good in this area if you don't want to breath Smokey air.? Don't really have info about what lies South of Forrester but it might not matter now for him.? For those under 60 and with extremely healthy lungs, maybe not a problem, just thought I would pass on the info.
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Great observation John. I have had several October hikes come
with rain and one with 8" of snow as well - I was north of Highway
80 on the PCT. I bailed then since it was the beginnings of a
storm that I just did not want to be in.
I am out hiking for enjoyment and that night I was contemplating
pushing the hike for the remaining 2 two days or call it so I
would not be in a miserable situation. We all need to think about
ourselves and resources that may be employed helping one out of a
situation that could have been avoided from the beginning.
As being involved with canine SAR for two decades, I have
searched in miserable weather as well knowing that I was in a
position to get out safely.
Be safe all.
Two Dogs
On 9/21/2021 09:04, John Ladd wrote:
As an admin of this group, I think there are two warnings
important to any of our members considering October hikes. While
not many people hike in a "normal" October, it may be tempting to
do so if you had August-September plans frustrated by the National
Forest closures.
1) Any October hike of significant length is likely to involve
some snowfall sufficient to obscure the trail, leading to
navigation problems for those not accustomed to navigation
problems. Occasionally it can be quite heavy and lead to wallowing
in deep, soft snow, at least where it drifts at a location you
have to hike over. Picture at link is from Oct 6, 2015 at Pinchot
Pass.
2) October 1 is the start of the federal government's fiscal year.
When there is gridlock about budget and debt limit issues,
government shutdowns have been triggered by this date. Recent news
suggests that this problem may arise this year on Oct 1 or shortly
thereafter.
Please do not respond with comments about politics. I will place
this message thread on comment moderated status and political
posts will not be approved by your admin team.
John Ladd??
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Rick A.
ravi_jmt2013
Lange Jorstad
Danica Berner
Derek Koonce