|
My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
|
Skip, The codes said for a long time neutral is the white wire? and hot is the black wire. You can check that by using a meter connected to a copper water line where the hot should be 120 and neutral = nothing [maybe needing a very long wire to reach the water line ] ?but? if the wiring has no ground wire? things get messy as the an ungrounded polarized receptacle is likely hard to get.? You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable. I am too far out of date to know what the codes allow now when updating older houses. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Waldo Magnuson via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 3:51 PM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson -- don??? va3drl
|
Here is what I do.? Use a voltmeter on the AC voltage range.?
Hold one lead in you hand and stick the other lead in the socket.?
The low side will be essentially zero.? The high side will show
some voltage, like 47 volts.? The voltmeter is a high impedance
between you and the electric line and your body is another high
impedance to ground.? I have often used this method and lived to
tell about it.? Never felt a tingle.? Caution, make sure you are
on a voltage setting, not a current setting.
Jerry, W6XL
On 1/1/2025 3:03 PM, don Root via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Skip,
The codes said for a long time neutral is the white wire?
and hot is the black wire. You can check that by using a
meter connected to a copper water line where the hot should
be 120 and neutral = nothing [maybe needing a very long wire
to reach the water line ] ?but? if the wiring has no ground
wire? things get messy as the an ungrounded polarized
receptacle is likely hard to get.? You should most likely
?install a 3-wire cable. I am too far out of date to know
what the codes allow now when updating older houses.
?
?
My house was built in 1955 and has several
outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet
with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than
the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
--
don??? va3drl
|
Temporarily wire up one of these...
Bob W4JFA?
Here is what I do.? Use a voltmeter on the AC voltage range.?
Hold one lead in you hand and stick the other lead in the socket.?
The low side will be essentially zero.? The high side will show
some voltage, like 47 volts.? The voltmeter is a high impedance
between you and the electric line and your body is another high
impedance to ground.? I have often used this method and lived to
tell about it.? Never felt a tingle.? Caution, make sure you are
on a voltage setting, not a current setting.
Jerry, W6XL
On 1/1/2025 3:03 PM, don Root via
wrote:
Skip,
The codes said for a long time neutral is the white wire?
and hot is the black wire. You can check that by using a
meter connected to a copper water line where the hot should
be 120 and neutral = nothing [maybe needing a very long wire
to reach the water line ] ?but? if the wiring has no ground
wire? things get messy as the an ungrounded polarized
receptacle is likely hard to get.? You should most likely
?install a 3-wire cable. I am too far out of date to know
what the codes allow now when updating older houses.
?
?
My house was built in 1955 and has several
outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet
with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than
the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
--
don??? va3drl
|
Jerry, you must be a one-half capacitor! ????What in invention! ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jerry Miel via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 6:15 PM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? Here is what I do.? Use a voltmeter on the AC voltage range.? Hold one lead in you hand and stick the other lead in the socket.? The low side will be essentially zero.? The high side will show some voltage, like 47 volts.? The voltmeter is a high impedance between you and the electric line and your body is another high impedance to ground.? I have often used this method and lived to tell about it.? Never felt a tingle.? Caution, make sure you are on a voltage setting, not a current setting. Jerry, W6XL On 1/1/2025 3:03 PM, don Root via groups.io wrote: Skip, The codes said for a long time neutral is the white wire? and hot is the black wire. You can check that by using a meter connected to a copper water line where the hot should be 120 and neutral = nothing [maybe needing a very long wire to reach the water line ] ?but? if the wiring has no ground wire? things get messy as the an ungrounded polarized receptacle is likely hard to get.? You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable. I am too far out of date to know what the codes allow now when updating older houses. ? ? My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
--
don??? va3drl
-- don??? va3drl
|
Will it fit into an old 2prong outlet??? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 6:26 PM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? Temporarily wire up one of these...
Bob W4JFA? ? -- don??? va3drl
|
You have to use an adapter or wire it direct. Bob W4JFA?
Will it fit into an old 2prong outlet??? ? ? Temporarily wire up one of these...
Bob W4JFA? ?
--
don??? va3drl
|
That's why I said temporarily wire it up. Bob W4JFA?
You have to use an adapter or wire it direct. Bob W4JFA?
Will it fit into an old 2prong outlet??? ? ? Temporarily wire up one of these...
Bob W4JFA? ?
--
don??? va3drl
|
Thanks guys for the suggestions. ?One suggestion was: ?“ You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable.” But my home (downstairs) is a log home and the 2-conductor wire went in when the logs were placed. ?Upstairs is all code.Skip
|
Hi Skip,
A Polarized, ungrounded, receptacle is readily available e.g. from Home Depot:
And replacing your old Non-polarized ungrounded receptacle with this one meets code:
NEC 406.4 D(2) Non-Grounding-Type Receptacles Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with 406.4(D)(2) (a), (D)(2) (b), or (D)(2) (c).
? (a) A non-grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non-grounding-type receptacle(s).
? (b)A non-grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles or their cover plates shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
? (c)A non-grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Where grounding-type receptacles are supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter, grounding-type receptacles or their cover plates shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground," visible after installation. An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
73 Chris
|
Skip, that was me. At one time the code allowed a separate bare? ground wire to be run from a water pipe or whatever ?when having upgrading problems. Don’t quote my wording, but might that work for some outlets? ? Also, I have yet to find an actual NFPA 70/ 1962 code? book on-line to read for myself. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Waldo Magnuson via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2025 11:34 AM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? Thanks guys for the suggestions. ?One suggestion was: ?“You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable.” But my home (downstairs) is a log home and the 2-conductor wire went in when the logs were placed. ?Upstairs is all code. -- don??? va3drl
|
You can install a GFCI without using a bonded ground wire, see: Regards, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Skip, that was me. At one time the code allowed a separate bare? ground wire to be run from a water pipe or whatever ?when having upgrading problems. Don’t quote my wording, but might that work for some outlets? ? Also, I have yet to find an actual NFPA 70/ 1962 code? book on-line to read for myself. ?
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Waldo Magnuson via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2025 11:34 AM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? Thanks guys for the suggestions. ?One suggestion was: ?“You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable.” But my home (downstairs) is a log home and the 2-conductor wire went in when the logs were placed. ?Upstairs is all code.
--
don??? va3drl
|
Hi Skip,
What you need is a Non Contact Voltage sensing Tester. Specifically, a Klein Tools NCVT. They come in various configurations. I use an older version of the NCVT2P (Link here: ) and can most highly recommend it. This tester allows you to sense if a wire has a voltage potential on it without it ever drawing any current or you touching a bare wire. It will sense through the insulation and has a tip that you can push into the receptacle slot to see if that particular slot is energize/has power. Please get one, you'll never regret it.
?
This tester was given to all engineering personal in my department on the recommendation of our lead electrician Danny Miller. Danny routinely worked on our equipment hooked directly to the power grid (we had some unique projects where we needed a LOT of power) and is the safest man I've ever met. He used this tester, recommend it and it saved his life one time when the mechanical mechanism of a high power circuit breaker failed and one of the phases was still connected to the grid line feeding it, even though the external breaker indication erroneously showed the breaker to be open. This tester gave him a warning that the circuit was still live.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 12:50 PM, Waldo Magnuson wrote:
My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
|
That tool looks good but the op wanted to know which wire is hot and which wire is neutral. Will it do that? Bob W4JFA?
Hi Skip,
What you need is a Non Contact Voltage sensing Tester. Specifically, a Klein Tools NCVT. They come in various configurations. I use an older version of the NCVT2P (Link here: ) and can most highly recommend it. This tester allows you to sense if a wire has a voltage potential on it without it ever drawing any current or you touching a bare wire. It will sense through the insulation and has a tip that you can push into the receptacle slot to see if that particular slot is energize/has power. Please get one, you'll never regret it.
?
This tester was given to all engineering personal in my department on the recommendation of our lead electrician Danny Miller. Danny routinely worked on our equipment hooked directly to the power grid (we had some unique projects where we needed a LOT of power) and is the safest man I've ever met. He used this tester, recommend it and it saved his life one time when the mechanical mechanism of a high power circuit breaker failed and one of the phases was still connected to the grid line feeding it, even though the external breaker indication erroneously showed the breaker to be open. This tester gave him a warning that the circuit was still live.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 12:50 PM, Waldo Magnuson wrote:
My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
|
Hi Bob,
Yes, that is exactly the function of the tool. It senses what wire/receptacle slot is hot/has potential on it and what wire/receptacle does not. It can do it even with the wire insulated. I have used it extensively to find out what wires in my house are "hot" and which are neutral. If you have a Romex cable you can even determine which side of it the hot wire is on. It's quite a sensitive tool and I most highly recommend that anyone working with electrical wiring get one.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 02:51 AM, Bob wrote:
That tool looks good but the op wanted to know which wire is hot and which wire is neutral. Will it do that?
Bob W4JFA?
Hi Skip,
What you need is a Non Contact Voltage sensing Tester. Specifically, a Klein Tools NCVT. They come in various configurations. I use an older version of the NCVT2P (Link here: ) and can most highly recommend it. This tester allows you to sense if a wire has a voltage potential on it without it ever drawing any current or you touching a bare wire. It will sense through the insulation and has a tip that you can push into the receptacle slot to see if that particular slot is energize/has power. Please get one, you'll never regret it.
?
This tester was given to all engineering personal in my department on the recommendation of our lead electrician Danny Miller. Danny routinely worked on our equipment hooked directly to the power grid (we had some unique projects where we needed a LOT of power) and is the safest man I've ever met. He used this tester, recommend it and it saved his life one time when the mechanical mechanism of a high power circuit breaker failed and one of the phases was still connected to the grid line feeding it, even though the external breaker indication erroneously showed the breaker to be open. This tester gave him a warning that the circuit was still live.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 12:50 PM, Waldo Magnuson wrote:
My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
|
Since it tells you hot or netral, great. You can never trust what's there until you verify. You never know what someone in the past did. Everyone should check their receptacles to make sure they're wired correctly. Bob W4JFA?
Hi Bob,
Yes, that is exactly the function of the tool. It senses what wire/receptacle slot is hot/has potential on it and what wire/receptacle does not. It can do it even with the wire insulated. I have used it extensively to find out what wires in my house are "hot" and which are neutral. If you have a Romex cable you can even determine which side of it the hot wire is on. It's quite a sensitive tool and I most highly recommend that anyone working with electrical wiring get one.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 02:51 AM, Bob wrote:
That tool looks good but the op wanted to know which wire is hot and which wire is neutral. Will it do that?
Bob W4JFA?
Hi Skip,
What you need is a Non Contact Voltage sensing Tester. Specifically, a Klein Tools NCVT. They come in various configurations. I use an older version of the NCVT2P (Link here: ) and can most highly recommend it. This tester allows you to sense if a wire has a voltage potential on it without it ever drawing any current or you touching a bare wire. It will sense through the insulation and has a tip that you can push into the receptacle slot to see if that particular slot is energize/has power. Please get one, you'll never regret it.
?
This tester was given to all engineering personal in my department on the recommendation of our lead electrician Danny Miller. Danny routinely worked on our equipment hooked directly to the power grid (we had some unique projects where we needed a LOT of power) and is the safest man I've ever met. He used this tester, recommend it and it saved his life one time when the mechanical mechanism of a high power circuit breaker failed and one of the phases was still connected to the grid line feeding it, even though the external breaker indication erroneously showed the breaker to be open. This tester gave him a warning that the circuit was still live.
?
73, Gordon KJ6IKT
?
On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 12:50 PM, Waldo Magnuson wrote:
My house was built in 1955 and has several outlets that are unpolarized outlets. If I replace an outlet with a 2-prong polarized outlet (neutral opening larger than the hot opening) how do tell which wire is hot?
Thanks.
Skip Magnuson
|
I trust grounded (neutral and grounding) wires even less than "hot" ones. ? If the connections aren't solid, what was cold can, without warning, get "kinda warm" as the loads in the building switch on and off.
?
This happened to me when a refrigerator in another room turned on.? It was in a church/grade school and I barely managed to not provide an example of "words you shouldn't say in front of a nun".?
?
Eric
|
Eric, that is another topic, but is very real concern, and requires a different test.. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of Eric via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2025 9:58 AM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? I trust grounded (neutral and grounding) wires even less than "hot" ones. ? If the connections aren't solid, what was cold can, without warning, get "kinda warm" as the loads in the building switch on and off. This happened to me when a refrigerator in another room turned on.? It was in a church/grade school and I barely managed to not provide an example of "words you shouldn't say in front of a nun".? -- don??? va3drl
|
Can we please move on to another topic? ?If you're worried about getting a "little tickle" from 120V, you have other issues.
?
73,
Jim N9WW
|
Hi Jim, Sounds good; You can easily start another topic that we will also discuss to whatever length. We gotta do something to keep going, Meanwhile, the 60Hz power has been going for 130 years? plus and has not been made obsolete. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io [mailto:HallicraftersRadios@groups.io] On Behalf Of James Chaggaris
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2025 9:39 PM
To: HallicraftersRadios@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? Can we please move on to another topic? ?If you're worried about getting a "little tickle" from 120V, you have other issues. -- don??? va3drl
|
don Root
Bob
Jim Whartenby