2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
开云体育James, I certainly was not the one to say any topic is stupid. That is like the idea of a stupid question. What would it take to make a topic stupid? Now that you remind me, the neutral to my house went almost open, leaving 150 volts on one line when the other was loaded. There is something to think about. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of James Chaggaris
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2025 11:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? Hi Don, I agree, it's a stupid topic. -- don??? va3drl |
开云体育Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maynard Wright, P. E., W6PAP via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2025 9:18 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that -- don??? va3drl |
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Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Monday, January 6, 2025 at 02:57:23 PM CST, don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maynard Wright, P. E., W6PAP via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2025 9:18 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that -- don??? va3drl |
开云体育Ya Jim, that or a close variation depending on where you live; the local grounding being variable with “soil” or rocks or sand. It was the neutral [grounded neutral] that was open ?so my neutral current had to go thru my ground to local earth and back 500 feet nominal to the transformer pole ground. Recall that the codes allow up to 25 ohms to local ground, so it is not much of a return wire even for a few amps.? Seeing the light bulb brightness and dim-ness was all I needed to know I had a neutral problem. Then I checked the main neutral bus? to determine that it was open somewhere outside and called the power Company.?? Of course all the outlet boxes ?washing machine, fridge, stove would ?be floating at some voltage above local mother earth too while testing one L-N load on the stove, and likely really bad if the A/C tried to start. ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2025 10:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy ? ? _,_ -- don??? va3drl |
开云体育Leon,? RE ?you should?CHECK AND INSPECT it from time to time Check IT the neutral only ? or IT the local grounding only ?? … as far the neutral is concerned, ?how do you go about testing it ? Your local ground might be easier to test.. but exactly what are you going to test ??? my guess would be that corroded connections are high on the list of potential failure points. People in this general area might just LOOSE their ground rod connection? due to the midnight copper thieves.. ? Thinking about? any disconnection to test, I am reminded of a ?“Mayday” episode where a big fancy plane crashed, primarily caused by tape put over the pitot tubes while they washed the plane or something, but the tape was not removed and was very hard to see from the ground.. so they were well up in the air before they knew the altitude gauges were wonky. ?? ? weedeater operators should be required to have a license; they could take your fenders off too. The guy next door it trying to fell our shared power pole with his weedeater Sorry for all the extra gibberish ? ? Leon Robinson ?? K5JLR ? ? On Monday, January 6, 2025 at 09:53:32 PM CST, Jim Whartenby via groups.io <old_radio@...> wrote: ? ? Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy ? ? On Monday, January 6, 2025 at 02:57:23 PM CST, don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote: ? ? Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Leon Robinson
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2025 4:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? That's the way it is supposed to be.? But to be SAFE you should? CHECK AND INSPECT it from time to time, things can and do happen. ? Recently my internet connection on the power?pole was cut by a weedeater. Things like this do happen occasionally. ? Leon Robinson ?? K5JLR ? ? On Monday, January 6, 2025 at 09:53:32 PM CST, Jim Whartenby via groups.io <old_radio@...> wrote: ? ? Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim ?? -- don??? va3drl |
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"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote:
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Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via groups.io <djeffarndt@...> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote:
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You did not read that right It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system! A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote:
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开云体育Hi Jim, I would copy what I see on Wiki-p? , but I will just mention that I see some critical punctuation in there. Others should look for themselves. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 10:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ? ? Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim ?? -- don??? va3drl |
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Getting back to the original grounding question/concerns: Here is some good info on residential grounding: I am adding some info on the sub-panel:? why in a moment In the subpanel info, it doesn't mention much about the separation of grounds and neutrals but the inset picture shows it. The grounds? have a separate bus bar and the neutral bar is insulated from the enclosure?so it does not share the ground?- only neutral wires are connected to it. The reason I want to share this with you - I ran into this problem because my main breaker panel became a subpanel with the new electrical code. When you do an upgrade to your household electrical and it could be just replacing your existing panel with a better one is enough to jump you to the new code in most jurisdictions. The new code requires that an emergency disconnect switch has to be added to the outside of the home near/next to the electrical service meter. This is because fire and other emergency folks? want a way to easily and quickly shut off power so they don't have to worry about it while handling an emergency such as a fire. So, this outside disconnect (it can be a switch or a circuit breaker type in an enclosure) but due to code, this enclosure has bonded neutral with dual ground rod grounding and becomes your MAIN now. So your inside the home breaker/load panel you have becomes a SUB and now you have to isolate your ground?wires and neutral wires in your home wiring! If this happens to you, it could be expensive and time consuming so I wanted to share that. Best to you all Donald On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 12:53?PM Donald J via <djeffarndt=[email protected]> wrote:
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开云体育Skip,?? we took your topic off the road. Going back to your ?comment ….One suggestion was: ?“You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable.” But my home (downstairs) is a log home and the 2-conductor wire went in when the logs were placed. ?Upstairs is all code. ? Now I wonder, if you got the answer you really needed.? Once the general question is asked? there are related questions: What are you intending to use the outlet for ? … a radio that expects to have a valid ground wire [3-prong]? or just a radio that is intended to be correctly polarized 2-prongpolarized plug ? I you only want/need the correct polarization, perhaps the upstream GFCI as Jim W mentioned ?will make a 2 prong polarized only outlet legal and sufficient, but it obviously won’t carry a safety ground. ? ? It is my understanding that you don’t have to meet “the NEC code”, but you have to meet the requirements of the local inspection authority or at least their interpretation of codes. ? With all this new micro-stuff somebody should make a micro-Tunnel Boring Machine ?for logs. ?
-- don??? va3drl |
don Root
Jim Whartenby
Donald J