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Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
?
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models??
?
Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
?
I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB, HDMI?...?
?
Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
?
Thank you for your input.
Radu.?
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With all the amazing improvements to the optics and imaging electronics over the years, I don't think you'll have much trouble there, except for assessing and deciding. Even in low-light conditions the modern cameras do well, so all I can say is to go by the specs and cost, considering the application. One basic thing I think that is in common with vision and photography is to maximize f-stop (smallest aperture or iris possible) with good lighting so you get good depth of field. It makes things much more pleasant for viewing. Good luck.
?
Ed
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Radu,
I picked up a Tomlov brand digital microscope that is handy for soldering and board inspections. There are several styles available on Amazon for prices as cheap as $70.
The advantage to it is that it has a self-contained LCD display so is a single compact unit to use without having to connect wires and cables to other equipment. It even has the ability to record to a USB drive if needed.
The model I have is a DM201 with a 7" HDMI display. If I can recall I paid around $130 for it. It looks like it has now been replaced by the slightly higher priced model DM202. But there are many other models available. You might take a look at them
Greg
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On 2025-03-17 12:02 AM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models? I have used a stereo zoom microscope from Titan Tools for several decades, for soldering mostly down to 0603, sometimes 0402, and occasionally 0201. Stereo, because you really need the depth perception for that sort of soldering. Zoom, because you need the lower magnification to give enough field of view for ease of routine hand-soldering, but higher magnification when hunting a cracked trace etc. This unit goes from 7x, where it stays most of the time, up to 40x, and has an alternate pair of eyepieces to double the magnification, and an auxiliary objective lens to double again, so it actually completely covers 7x to 160x. For years I used a simple light bulb clamped to the stand for illumination; a couple years ago the LED ring illuminators came down in price and they're way better. YMMV of course! Steve Hendrix
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I agree with Steve Hendrix, stereo or binocular zoom microscopes are key to good eye hand coordination which requires depth perception lacking on 2D displays used with digital microscopes.
?
Joe
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Agreed wholeheartedly. I bought a second-hand Leitz stereo microscope many years ago and have used it for all my SMD soldering. About a year ago I bought a LED ring light and that really made a difference! Before that I just had an IKEA swan-neck LED spot, but the ring is so much brighter and has less shadows. You can pick them up from eBay for not much money at all.
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On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 09:02:20PM -0700, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models? If you have an opportunity, check out a Mantis. Sometimes you can find good deals on used ones. They are absolutely amazing - a binocular scope without eyepieces. There's been a lot of writeup on them on eevblog. -- Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
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On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB, HDMI?...
Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
Thank you for your input. The Mantis by Vision Engineering. On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year. The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance. I had an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab. I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one immediately. My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing. Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting. Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work. Lighting is next. People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper lighting system makes all the difference. There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve. The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to eliminate shadows. (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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In the case of the Mantis, I would recommend to 'try before you buy' as the Mantis doesn't suit everyone. At work opinions are divided, some people avoid using the Mantis as they get distorted vision when using it. There is an adjustment control on the side of the instrument to counter this effect, but some people still can't use it. Other people really like it.
?
I think the Mantis is very bright and sharp and it offers a degree of 3D vision if you move your eyes slightly. It's at its best for SMD inspection work where it truly excels. I'm happy to use one but the view they give isn't as natural as something from a high quality stereo microscope.
?
A good stereo microscope can offer a wide view area and if a Barlow lens is fitted to it, the height above the work can be in the order of 120-150mm. This is a good height in my opinion.
?
Here at home I use an old Zeiss GSZ stereo microscope. It is a bit tired now and probably needs to have all the optics cleaned inside. However, I think it is much better than a Mantis when it comes to doing soldering work or any kind of intricate work. It has an external KL1500 cold light unit with it which gives very natural lighting.
?
The Mantis is best suited for inspection in my opinion with very sharp optics and very clinical lighting and a degree of 3D when you move your eyes.
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If you do consider getting a stereo microscope then I'd recommend something with prism lenses as this allows a more natural viewing angle. This does come at some expense of optical quality compared to the straight through stereo microscopes but it is worth it in my opinion. The quality of the prisms in the angled stereo microscopes is therefore very important and my Zeiss microscope is very impressive in this respect. I've not tried the Amcomm models but I've heard good reviews.
?
Also be aware that the straight microscopes often have a very restricted effective viewing area.? This can be like looking down a very narrow pipe and this can be tiresome and frustrating and also it's easy to get neck strain after a while as you have to look down the eyepieces all the time.
?
Also, just to clarify, the Mantis units at work are the Elite model and they have more than one magnifier fitted. This is another area where a stereo microscope can compete well. My Zeiss has a full (and very smooth) zoom control from low magnification to high magnification. It also has a wider viewing area than the Mantis.
?
To focus the Mantis you have to move the whole Mantis up and down by hand. This is absolutely fine for inspection work as you can hold the PCB in your hand and rotate it and find focus by moving the PCB with your hands.
?
Where the Mantis struggles in my opinion is when you want to do intricate soldering work on something that isn't flat. You have to set the item down on a bench and then fiddle with the height of the (very wobbly) Mantis in order to find focus. It's harder to control the focus, the work area is less and you have to re-find focus if you swap to a different magnifier. For all these reasons, a decent stereo microscope outclasses the Mantis in my opinion. That's why I recommend that you try before you buy. Don't just look down it and inspect something. Pretend to solder something and see if you are OK with the way it has to be moved up and down to focus itself.
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On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via groups.io wrote: On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB, HDMI?...
Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
Thank you for your input. ? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one immediately.
? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing.
? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting.
? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
???????????? -Dave Hi Radu, I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources to sell. The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an Olympus Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not liking it. When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets me move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus). I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use one effectively yet. Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a Vision Engineering Greenough for sale. Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the most sense. I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed and quality will improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in the micro world... Also you will notice more since flat view onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well. The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate solder paste, etc. Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned... -- John Griessen Albuquerque NM
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Thank you all, great input.
From these choices, it sounds like a stereo microscope on a boom would be ideal. I do tend to work on all sorts of positions and oftentimes spill outside of the desk/bench. Also, some of the boards I need to examine are too large to fit under a microscope with a stand.? I'm not sure exactly how well this relative freedom to move the microscope around works. But the idea to have that available is very exciting - I'm really tired of using my multiple hand magnifiers with their own lights and often another flashlight on the other hand. My eyes get terribly strained with that setup.
Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses?
Thank you.
Radu.
On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via wrote:
> On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via wrote:
>> Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've
>> decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
>> There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with
>> some specific models?
>> Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
>> I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB,
>> HDMI?...
>> Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
>> Thank you for your input.
>
>? ? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
>
>? ? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten
> years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
>
>? ? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had
> an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one
> immediately.
>
>? ? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing.
>
>? ? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting.
>
>? ? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
>
>? ? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper
> lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this
> suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to
> eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
>
>? ???????????? -Dave
Hi Radu,
I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources
to sell.
The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an Olympus? Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not
liking it.
When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets me move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus).
I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use
one effectively yet.
Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a? Vision Engineering Greenough for sale.
Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the most sense.
I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed and quality will
improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in the micro world...? Also you will notice more since flat view
onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well.
The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate
solder paste, etc.
Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned...
--
John Griessen
Albuquerque NM
|
Radu, I'm a little late jumping in, but here goes. I have a couple of issues that impact my bench work. First is that I have vision problems and need magnification to do even basic work. Second is that a year or so ago I developed some neck/shoulder problems that made hunching over to solder painful after a short time at the bench.
For years I'd been using a cheap Chinese stereo microscope and was very happy with that, until the shoulder thing made using it difficult. I decided to switch to a digital microscope with a 24 inch monitor mounted off the back of the bench. I got one of the better-rated Chinese ones from Amazon for, IIRC, around $400 for the basic kit. I'm still getting used to it, but here are a few thoughts:
1. Not having stereo vision makes soldering very different, but you do get used to it, and pretty quickly. It's not the problem I thought it would be, but it still requires adaptation.
2. Most of the moderately priced digital units don't have a "true" zoom in that the focus (or inverse, working distance) shifts as the magnification changes. This is a real pain when you want to zoom in to inspect something. Were I to do it again, I'd spend a couple hundred more if necessary to get a true zoom with stable focus.
3. With the lack of 3-D, lighting becomes very important. The ring light around the lens is good most of the time, but having a light that you can shine from an angle sometimes makes a tremendous difference. I haven't tried it yet, but Dave at eevblog did a video showing how much difference using polarized light can make, too.
4. Be aware that there are a multitude of different mounting tube and fitting sizes used on microscopes, both analog and digital. I wasted a bunch of time and money on pieces that didn't fit together. (I was trying to come up with a wall-mount so that vibrations on the bench wouldn't shake the image. I'm still not there yet.)
Hope this helps.
John
----
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/17/25 14:59, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Thank you all, great input.
From these choices, it sounds like a stereo microscope on a boom would be ideal. I do tend to work on all sorts of positions and oftentimes spill outside of the desk/bench. Also, some of the boards I need to examine are too large to fit under a microscope with a stand.? I'm not sure exactly how well this relative freedom to move the microscope around works. But the idea to have that available is very exciting - I'm really tired of using my multiple hand magnifiers with their own lights and often another flashlight on the other hand. My eyes get terribly strained with that setup.
Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses?
Thank you.
Radu.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 10:29 AM John Griessen via groups.io < groups.io> <john@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via groups.io <> wrote:
> On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io <
groups.io> wrote:
>> Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or
inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've
>> decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
>> There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out
there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with
>> some specific models?
>> Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that
crosses over a good threshold?
>> I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this
will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB,
>> HDMI?...
>> Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
>> Thank you for your input.
>
>? ? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
>
>? ? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an
after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten
> years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
>
>? ? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great
optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had
> an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's
lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one
> immediately.
>
>? ? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly
impressive thing.
>
>? ? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and
lighting.
>
>? ? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
>
>? ? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a random
desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper
> lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap
aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this
> suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem
to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to
> eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
>
>? ???????????? -Dave
Hi Radu,
I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision
Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources
to sell.
The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an
Olympus? Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not
liking it.
When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets me
move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus).
I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a
speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use
one effectively yet.
Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a? Vision Engineering Greenough for sale.
Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the
most sense.
I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed and
quality will
improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in
the micro world...? Also you will notice more since flat view
onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well.
The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active
seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate
solder paste, etc.
Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned...
--
John Griessen
Albuquerque NM
|
I do not recommend the digital microscopes, because they don't provide
stereo vision, which is really important when working on SMT components.
?
I've been using stereo microscopes for at least 20 years, and have tried
several. I am typically soldering 0603 passives, SOT-23, and QFN parts
with 0.5 mm pad pitch. Sometimes I am working with 0402 parts.
?
My current favorite setup is an AmScope boom arm Stereo Zoom.
Boom reach:? 24" , very heavy base
Magnification Range:?? 0.7 to 4.5
?
Eye pieces: WF10X/20 (Wide field, can be used with glasses, but I always take
?????????????????? my glasses (reading) off as I find it more comfortable)
?
Must have option: Barlow lens with a magnification of 0.5? . This doubles the
?????????????????? working distance from the bottom lens (Barlow) to the PCB, which
?????????????????? is really nice when you want to hold the soldering iron near vertical.
?????????????????? It also helps when the head is raised about 4", as it lets you hold
?????????????????? the board at an angle to view components and joints at other than
?????????????????? vertical only. Other Barlow magnifications are available, those that
?????????????????? increase magnification will reduce working distance.
?
So the stack up is (0.7 to 4.5) x 10 x 0.5 gives magnification of 3.5 to 22.5? .
I also have some x20 eyepieces but I rarely use them. If I remove the Barlow
lens, then my max magnification is 20 x 4.5 = 90 , but this has very limited
depth of field.
?
With regard to lighting, I originally had fluorescent ring lights, but I found the
light was not bright enough, and there was also a continuous buzz from the
power supply. 20 years ago, high intensity LED ring lights were not an option.
About 10 years ago I designed my own LED ring light with 30 high intensity
SMT white LEDs, and a 32V power supply.
?
Unless you are planning to make youtube videos, don't pay extra for a
trinocular microscope. And if you do get a trinocular you will be real
disappointed to discover that when you enable the camera optical path,
you lose the stereo vision path. I did a quick scan of Amazon, and it seems
all the boom arm stereo microscopes are trinocular.
?
Expect to pay between $600 and $1000, for an investment in your eyes
that will last a life time.
?
Some people noted that Vision Engineering Mantis is an option, although
some issues are also described above. I have one of the older models with
x3 and x10 objective lenses, and I hate it. It is bulky, hard to focus, does
not have zoom capability, and the lighting is poor. I never use it any more.
?
In other news, I strongly recommend Metcal soldering irons, with the
STTC-1xx series cartridges. STTC-106 for 0603 , 0402, SOT-23, and QFN
parts.? STTC-144 is also nice for these parts (has a bent tip). STTC-135 for
through hole parts, and STTC-117 for plumbing and ground planes.
ROHS compliant solder is Kester 24-7068-7603
?
?
Cheers,
Philip
?
|
It's interesting to read the various posts.
I possess both video microscopes and binocular styles as well depending upon the work being done. Out of all I usually grab a video unit first off.
It is nice to be able to have items that you need to grab when working by simply glancing down rather than having to pull yourself away from eyepieces every time. And views through eyepieces sometimes is like looking through a tunnel with my advancing optical issues. I also find that working with SMT technology you are viewing a planar work surface with both approaches anyway.
Working with a display screen takes a bit of practice to gain the experience in doing so. I have had no problems when working with SMT components down to 0201, TSSOP, etc. size.
As I commented to a person earlier today: It's all the personal preference of each user. Some people cannot live with a particular approach while others have no issue with it.
Greg
|
On 2025-03-17 2:59 PM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses? I personally wear bifocals. I take them off when using the microscope, to allow my eyes to get close enough to see the full field of view. It just shift the optimum focus for me, from what's optimum for my tech. Not a big issue. That approach does not, of course compensate for astigmatism, so if you have significant astigmatism you might do better with glasses on. Steve Hendrix
|
Thank you again all - really thoughtful and comprehensive input.?
I may be able to buy a Nikon SMZ645 for $250-300 or so. I wonder what you all think about that opportunity. This would come with what seems to be the C-PS160 stand (I think?...) and some sort of sizable horizontal arm - overall, it seems to be able to reach pretty freely around maybe as much as a quarter or so of my bench. This is by eyeballing pictures I received etc. Ideally, this would have a bit of autonomy around the bench, but maybe I'm asking too much from an optical microscope and should just also have a small digital wifi microscope for other inspections and other examinations,?blasting?what it sees on a large screen. I have duly registered the advice this far to focus on an optical stereo microscope - it's just that I think a small battery powered wifi microscope would add some additional functionality to the bench.?
My eyes have a bunch of issues, including the fact that they're very dissimilar left to?right. I can't imagine this not being a "glasses on" type of situation. There'll be a zillion different?lens between my eyes and the subject of magnification!...?? Radu.?
On 2025-03-17 2:59 PM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via wrote:
> Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo
> microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses?
I personally wear bifocals. I take them off when using the microscope,
to allow my eyes to get close enough to see the full field of view. It
just shift the optimum focus for me, from what's optimum for my tech.
Not a big issue.
That approach does not, of course compensate for astigmatism, so if you
have significant astigmatism you might do better with glasses on.
Steve Hendrix
|
I use an American Optical (because it was cheap) and found a nice heavy stand to hold it up.? I have a fiber optic ring light on the microscope.
I find that an auxiliary light can help to illuminate from the side as well.
I would build a board holder that allows you to position any part of a board under the microscope without moving the microscope. How complicated you make that little board holder is up to you. Maybe move manually and lock into place.
if you were building boards by hand, and using EAGLE, then I can show you a program that models the PC board in OpenSCAD.? That same parsing routine can find the XY of any part.
that might help a bit.
Ideally, you want to move the board in X and Y, then rotate for the best soldering angle.
Harvey
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/17/2025 2:59 PM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Thank you all, great input.
From these choices, it sounds like a stereo microscope on a boom would be ideal. I do tend to work on all sorts of positions and oftentimes spill outside of the desk/bench. Also, some of the boards I need to examine are too large to fit under a microscope with a stand.? I'm not sure exactly how well this relative freedom to move the microscope around works. But the idea to have that available is very exciting - I'm really tired of using my multiple hand magnifiers with their own lights and often another flashlight on the other hand. My eyes get terribly strained with that setup.
Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses?
Thank you.
Radu.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 10:29 AM John Griessen via groups.io <> <john@...> wrote:
On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via groups.io <> wrote:
> On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io
<> wrote:
>> Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or
inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've
>> decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
>> There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out
there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with
>> some specific models?
>> Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that
crosses over a good threshold?
>> I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking
this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB,
>> HDMI?...
>> Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
>> Thank you for your input.
>
>? ? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
>
>? ? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an
after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten
> years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
>
>? ? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great
optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had
> an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's
lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one
> immediately.
>
>? ? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly
impressive thing.
>
>? ? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and
lighting.
>
>? ? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
>
>? ? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a
random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper
> lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap
aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this
> suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem
to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to
> eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
>
>? ???????????? -Dave
Hi Radu,
I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision
Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources
to sell.
The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an
Olympus? Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not
liking it.
When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets
me move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus).
I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a
speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use
one effectively yet.
Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a? Vision Engineering Greenough for sale.
Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the
most sense.
I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed
and quality will
improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in
the micro world...? Also you will notice more since flat view
onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well.
The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active
seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate
solder paste, etc.
Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned...
--
John Griessen
Albuquerque NM
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Good stereo microscopes are like binoculars have one fixed eyepiece and one variable focus one.
close the variable focus eye, focus with the fixed one, reverse, but use the eyepiece alone for focus.
should not need to be done more than once.
Harvey
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On 3/17/2025 9:46 PM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote: Thank you again all - really thoughtful and comprehensive input.
I may be able to buy a Nikon SMZ645 for $250-300 or so. I wonder what you all think about that opportunity. This would come with what seems to be the C-PS160 stand (I think?...) and some sort of sizable horizontal arm - overall, it seems to be able to reach pretty freely around maybe as much as a quarter or so of my bench. This is by eyeballing pictures I received etc. Ideally, this would have a bit of autonomy around the bench, but maybe I'm asking too much from an optical microscope and should just also have a small digital wifi microscope for other inspections and other examinations,?blasting?what it sees on a large screen. I have duly registered the advice this far to focus on an optical stereo microscope - it's just that I think a small battery powered wifi microscope would add some additional functionality to the bench.
My eyes have a bunch of issues, including the fact that they're very dissimilar left to?right. I can't imagine this not being a "glasses on" type of situation. There'll be a zillion different?lens between my eyes and the subject of magnification!...
Radu.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 6:27?PM Steve Hendrix via groups.io <> <SteveHx@...> wrote:
On 2025-03-17 2:59 PM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io
<> wrote:
> Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo
> microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing
glasses?
I personally wear bifocals. I take them off when using the
microscope,
to allow my eyes to get close enough to see the full field of
view. It
just shift the optimum focus for me, from what's optimum for my tech.
Not a big issue.
That approach does not, of course compensate for astigmatism, so
if you
have significant astigmatism you might do better with glasses on.
Steve Hendrix
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FWIW, I wear glasses with built in prisms. I take them off when using my microscope. If you can try the Nikon before buying with and without glasses, then that would be nice. Also make sure you have ample lighting. Ring leds or such.
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Anders
Dave McGuire
Philip Freidin