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A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
This has been an interesting thread. Like everyone lots of dead power sensors. Whats funny is now even the dead sensors seem to have magical value. The actual meters are nice. Something about a analog readout for peaking power while tuning. But that said I do agree that the modern ic power sensors good to about 6 Ghz seem like a reasonable fit. But I believe that most of the circuits used in the meter may not be needed. If I get around to this I would tend to set the gain of a opamp in the meter through the db switch. The sensors have a predictable voltage out. A small?part of that range needs to be mapped into each power switch range. Easier said than done. The alternative and I think perhaps far harder is to compress the IC sensor into what a diode would have put out. Then use the chopper and such as is. Best of luck to anyone who goes further. Regards Paul |
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Lothar baier
the problem you run into when developing any substitute sensor ,? which is calibration , in order for a sensor to be of value you have to calibrate it which usually is done by comparing it to a calibrated sensor but obviously if you have a calibrated sensor there was no need to design a sensor?
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开云体育A couple of thoughts on that… ? It assumes you don’t have friends with a suitable sensor, or are unwilling to pay a commercial cal house to do it for you. ? Also, if you have a decent SA and sig gen that you have reasonable faith in, those can be used, Yes, they aren’t quite as good as having another sensor, but for hobby purposes, you could get within a half dB with care and decent gear. If you have both the SA and SG, you now have two reference instruments, and if they are in agreement then you can be fairly confident of your cal. Most SG’s provide output level indications, and SA markers are more accurate than eyeballs. ? It should be noted that power meters are the most accurate devices for power measurements, if traceable to NIST or equivalent. Typically less than .2 dB uncertainty. SG’s are calibrated for output power with a power meter. The 8566 is +/- 1 dB or more over its frequency range (from memory). More modern SA’s, such as the PSA and PXA series, can almost match a power meter for uncertainty, however. ? Building a sensor as a challenge is a good exercise even if you have a real one. You could keep the real one on the shelf as a reference and use the homebrewed unit for you daily testing. ? BTW, I am trying to revive an really old HP sensor from the 60’s that used 4 AGX 0.01 amp fuses as the sense and reference elements. So far they appear to be unobtanium. Even the fuse makers don’t list them anymore and I haven’t yet found anything that looks to be equivalent. Just finding a 0.01 amp fuse in any style is a tough one. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2022 12:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? the problem you run into when developing any substitute sensor ,? which is calibration , in order for a sensor to be of value you have to calibrate it which usually is done by comparing it to a calibrated sensor but obviously if you have a calibrated sensor there was no need to design a sensor? |
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Lothar baier
开云体育Oh I was not talking about myself, I have calibrated power sensors and meters this was just for people to consider?On Mar 9, 2022, at 00:07, n8zmTWH via groups.io <n8zmTWH@...> wrote:
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开云体育I didn’t think you were. My ‘you’ was just a general case. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2022 2:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? Oh I was not talking about myself, I have calibrated power sensors and meters this was just for people to consider?
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Lothar baier
开云体育Understood , Generally if I were to pursue a sensor design I would design a USB sensor rather than pursuing a replacement for a existing sensor , there are small mixed signal Processors with USB such as CYPRESS PSOC that can be used , for the sensing element I would use analog devices detector mmic which are cheap and readily available or for higher frequency a self balancing bridge design using thermistors or a thermal sensor design ? Back when I was a teen getting started with microwave ham radio I build my first powermeter using a thermal bridge ,? the design used a 50ohm chip termination with a thermistor attached using thermal conductive glue , the thermistor was put in a bridge circuit and used a DMM module for readout , the beauty of this design was that you could do a rough calibration using a DMM and DC power supply ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of n8zmTWH via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? I didn’t think you were. My ‘you’ was just a general case. ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Lothar baier ? Oh I was not talking about myself, I have calibrated power sensors and meters this was just for people to consider?
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Bob Stewart
Lothar, Is this what you're looking for by any chance? Bob
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022, 1:03:13 AM CST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:
Oh I was not talking about myself, I have calibrated power sensors and meters this was just for people to consider? On Mar 9, 2022, at 00:07, n8zmTWH via groups.io <n8zmTWH@...> wrote:
A couple of thoughts on that… ? It assumes you don’t have friends with a suitable sensor, or are unwilling to pay a commercial cal house to do it for you. ? Also, if you have a decent SA and sig gen that you have reasonable faith in, those can be used, Yes, they aren’t quite as good as having another sensor, but for hobby purposes, you could get within a half dB with care and decent gear. If you have both the SA and SG, you now have two reference instruments, and if they are in agreement then you can be fairly confident of your cal. Most SG’s provide output level indications, and SA markers are more accurate than eyeballs. ? It should be noted that power meters are the most accurate devices for power measurements, if traceable to NIST or equivalent. Typically less than .2 dB uncertainty. SG’s are calibrated for output power with a power meter. The 8566 is +/- 1 dB or more over its frequency range (from memory). More modern SA’s, such as the PSA and PXA series, can almost match a power meter for uncertainty, however. ? Building a sensor as a challenge is a good exercise even if you have a real one. You could keep the real one on the shelf as a reference and use the homebrewed unit for you daily testing. ? BTW, I am trying to revive an really old HP sensor from the 60’s that used 4 AGX 0.01 amp fuses as the sense and reference elements. So far they appear to be unobtanium. Even the fuse makers don’t list them anymore and I haven’t yet found anything that looks to be equivalent. Just finding a 0.01 amp fuse in any style is a tough one. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Lothar baier ? the problem you run into when developing any substitute sensor ,? which is calibration , in order for a sensor to be of value you have to calibrate it which usually is done by comparing it to a calibrated sensor but obviously if you have a calibrated sensor there was no need to design a sensor? |
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开云体育Hi Bob… ? Got ‘em. Thanks! ? Tom, N8ZM ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob Stewart
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 6:36 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? Lothar, ? Is this what you're looking for by any chance? ? ?
? ? ? Bob ? ? On Wednesday, March 9, 2022, 1:03:13 AM CST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote: ? ? Oh I was not talking about myself, I have calibrated power sensors and meters this was just for people to consider?
A couple of thoughts on that… ? It assumes you don’t have friends with a suitable sensor, or are unwilling to pay a commercial cal house to do it for you. ? Also, if you have a decent SA and sig gen that you have reasonable faith in, those can be used, Yes, they aren’t quite as good as having another sensor, but for hobby purposes, you could get within a half dB with care and decent gear. If you have both the SA and SG, you now have two reference instruments, and if they are in agreement then you can be fairly confident of your cal. Most SG’s provide output level indications, and SA markers are more accurate than eyeballs. ? It should be noted that power meters are the most accurate devices for power measurements, if traceable to NIST or equivalent. Typically less than .2 dB uncertainty. SG’s are calibrated for output power with a power meter. The 8566 is +/- 1 dB or more over its frequency range (from memory). More modern SA’s, such as the PSA and PXA series, can almost match a power meter for uncertainty, however. ? Building a sensor as a challenge is a good exercise even if you have a real one. You could keep the real one on the shelf as a reference and use the homebrewed unit for you daily testing. ? BTW, I am trying to revive an really old HP sensor from the 60’s that used 4 AGX 0.01 amp fuses as the sense and reference elements. So far they appear to be unobtanium. Even the fuse makers don’t list them anymore and I haven’t yet found anything that looks to be equivalent. Just finding a 0.01 amp fuse in any style is a tough one. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier ? the problem you run into when developing any substitute sensor ,? which is calibration , in order for a sensor to be of value you have to calibrate it which usually is done by comparing it to a calibrated sensor but obviously if you have a calibrated sensor there was no need to design a sensor? |
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Please trim everything, after the item number. The rest is your tracking information. Highlight and delete the question mark and everything that follows to give a result like this: On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 6:36 PM Bob Stewart <bob@...> wrote:
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An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench. Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch? |
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Lothar baier
开云体育Long story short you cant fix the 8481 or replace them with a diode ,? the 848x series was based on a thermocouple that was designed by HP , the parts are not available from HP , one guy sells waffle packs of them on ebay for like $7000 or so but even if you buy them replacing the part requires a lot of skills and a steady hand , as far as diodes concerns the output voltage of diodes and the characteristics are not compatible with the electronics in the 848x ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of visitslovenija via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 5:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? An interesting and long running thread. |
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I have a diode front end for this power meter interface working on the bench. It's certainly possible. And let's not forget that there were already diode-based sensors in that product line.
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-Dave On 5/19/22 12:52, Lothar baier wrote:
Long story short you cant fix the 8481 or replace them with a diode , the 848x series was based on a thermocouple that was designed by HP , the parts are not available from HP , one guy sells waffle packs of them on ebay for like $7000 or so but even if you buy them replacing the part requires a lot of skills and a steady hand , as far as diodes concerns the output voltage of diodes and the characteristics are not compatible with the electronics in the 848x --
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA |
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Lothar baier
Yes there were diode based models ( 81D , 84A) but the electronics differed from the A/B/H series circuit boards , you can compare the schematics to see that there are differences , its also not just about "working" you can most certainly get something that will read power but duplicating the original specs in terms of linearity and accuracy is a different story
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters I have a diode front end for this power meter interface working on the bench. It's certainly possible. And let's not forget that there were already diode-based sensors in that product line. -Dave On 5/19/22 12:52, Lothar baier wrote: Long story short you cant fix the 8481 or replace them with a diode , -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA |
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I'm not talking about putting a diode where the thermocouple used to be, I'm talking generally about diode-based sensors on these meters. I'm quite aware of the internals, having studied them extensively and designed hardware for that interface.
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-Dave On 5/19/22 13:22, Lothar baier wrote:
Yes there were diode based models ( 81D , 84A) but the electronics differed from the A/B/H series circuit boards , you can compare the schematics to see that there are differences , its also not just about "working" you can most certainly get something that will read power but duplicating the original specs in terms of linearity and accuracy is a different story --
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA |
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Lothar baier
It’s a different story obviously if you design a complete new sensor but then you still have the problem that you need access to a calibrated sensor to establish your calibration factors
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters I'm not talking about putting a diode where the thermocouple used to be, I'm talking generally about diode-based sensors on these meters. I'm quite aware of the internals, having studied them extensively and designed hardware for that interface. -Dave On 5/19/22 13:22, Lothar baier wrote: Yes there were diode based models ( 81D , 84A) but the electronics -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA |