|
Of course. I have a Weinschel NBS power sensor calibration system in my lab. B-)
-Dave
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On 5/19/22 13:35, Lothar baier wrote: It’s a different story obviously if you design a complete new sensor but then you still have the problem that you need access to a calibrated sensor to establish your calibration factors
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
I'm not talking about putting a diode where the thermocouple used to be, I'm talking generally about diode-based sensors on these meters.
I'm quite aware of the internals, having studied them extensively and designed hardware for that interface.
-Dave
On 5/19/22 13:22, Lothar baier wrote:
Yes there were diode based models ( 81D , 84A) but the electronics
differed from the A/B/H series circuit boards , you can compare the
schematics to see that there are differences , its also not just about
"working" you can most certainly get something that will read power
but duplicating the original specs in terms of linearity and accuracy
is a different story
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
I have a diode front end for this power meter interface working on the bench. It's certainly possible. And let's not forget that there were already diode-based sensors in that product line.
-Dave
On 5/19/22 12:52, Lothar baier wrote:
Long story short you cant fix the 8481 or replace them with a diode ,
the 848x series was based on a thermocouple that was designed by HP ,
the parts are not available from HP , one guy sells waffle packs of
them on ebay for like $7000 or so but even if you buy them replacing
the part requires a lot of skills and a steady hand , as far as
diodes concerns the output voltage of diodes and the characteristics
are not compatible with the electronics in the 848x
*From:* [email protected]
<[email protected]> *On Behalf Of
*visitslovenija via groups.io
*Sent:* Thursday, May 19, 2022 5:20 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and
would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price,
has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and
modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly,
but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
The diode approach would be the way to go. Like many of you I also like the large scale HP power meters. You can pick the bodies up for nothing. Though suddenly there seems to be a magical market for a body without sensors. An approach I recently took that has worked was to leverage the analog devices power sensors into a 435 body. This approach really couldn't use anything?inside of the 435. The Analog device sensor in a small box with very flexible?cable goes to an arduino that maps the linear to the log scale of the 435. Since the sensor works from?+15 to -50db I reused the switch to select new scaling in 10 db steps. Also to create a broad range 0 to -50 db scale. I like the meter a lot and it now sets on top?the real HP-435. The real one for very accurate readings to 18 GHz the new one good to 6 GHz. It really works well as I rarely need .25 db accuracy on anything. The Linear to log was quite a challenge as I learned. Though the meter is very nice this was a complex project so not sure its useful to many. If the diode approach can work as Dave says then that would be the best approach with the least building challenge. If you don't need 18GHz bandwidth maybe you can get away with larger components. Regards Paul WB8TSL
|
The biggest issue you run into with diodes is that they have a limited dynamic range if it comes to linearity , agilent tried to compensate for this in the E9300 series sensors by using multiple sensing elements that are switched based
on the input power , generally reaching 10GHz with packaged diodes that are manageable in a regular home lab is doable but above you need to use beam leads or die level parts which are not quite as easy to handle !
?
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of paulswed via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
?
The diode approach would be the way to go. Like many of you I also like the large scale HP power meters. You can pick the bodies up for nothing. Though suddenly there seems to be a magical
market for a body without sensors.
An approach I recently took that has worked was to leverage the analog devices power sensors into a 435 body. This approach really couldn't use anything?inside of the 435.
The Analog device sensor in a small box with very flexible?cable goes to an arduino that maps the linear to the log scale of the 435.
Since the sensor works from?+15 to -50db I reused the switch to select new scaling in 10 db steps. Also to create a broad range 0 to -50 db scale.
I like the meter a lot and it now sets on top?the real HP-435.
The real one for very accurate readings to 18 GHz the new one good to 6 GHz. It really works well as I rarely need .25 db accuracy on anything.
The Linear to log was quite a challenge as I learned.
Though the meter is very nice this was a complex project so not sure its useful to many.
If the diode approach can work as Dave says then that would be the best approach with the least building challenge.
If you don't need 18GHz bandwidth maybe you can get away with larger components.
|
From memory the 8484 power sensor is a diode? front end ? But a working 8481? or 8484 go for about ?120 to ?160 in the UK equivalent to a day’s wages? And it would take best part of a day to modify busted thermocouples for a diode by the time you did any calibration Regards Paul ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of visitslovenija
Sent: 19 May 2022 11:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
The 8484 is a dione power sensor. Many other HP diode sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number. E.g. 8485D as opposed to 8485A Cheers! Bruce Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@...>:
From memory the 8484 power sensor is a diode front end
But a working 8481 or 8484 go for about ?120 to ?160 in the UK equivalent to a day’s wages
And it would take best part of a day to modify busted thermocouples for a diode by the time you did any calibration
Regards Paul
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of visitslovenija
Sent: 19 May 2022 11:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
Talking about power sensor, I got lucky enough to get a (working) 436b and a WORKING \o/ sensor. But unfortunately, got it without the cable. Is there a cheaper source for the cable than ebay?
73 de PU2SEX Alexandre
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em qui., 19 de mai. de 2022 às 13:41, visitslovenija < musto102@...> escreveu:
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
Hi Paul sounds like you have re engendered the 435? and you say you have achieved a 65 dB dynamic range? that is excellent and good for most Amateurs to ?6 Ghz ?but a lot want 10 Ghz? ?suggest you write it up for one of the magazines that Pay just as mater of interest? other than lots of Time ( I assume Weeks ) how much did it cost excluding the donor 435 ? Personally I repair the 432 and 435 meter usually it is the meter face and help UK Amateurs out with parts Paul ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of paulswed
Sent: 19 May 2022 18:52
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? The diode approach would be the way to go. Like many of you I also like the large scale HP power meters. You can pick the bodies up for nothing. Though suddenly there seems to be a magical market for a body without sensors. An approach I recently took that has worked was to leverage the analog devices power sensors into a 435 body. This approach really couldn't use anything?inside of the 435. The Analog device sensor in a small box with very flexible?cable goes to an arduino that maps the linear to the log scale of the 435. Since the sensor works from?+15 to -50db I reused the switch to select new scaling in 10 db steps. Also to create a broad range 0 to -50 db scale. I like the meter a lot and it now sets on top?the real HP-435. The real one for very accurate readings to 18 GHz the new one good to 6 GHz. It really works well as I rarely need .25 db accuracy on anything. The Linear to log was quite a challenge as I learned. Though the meter is very nice this was a complex project so not sure its useful to many. If the diode approach can work as Dave says then that would be the best approach with the least building challenge. If you don't need 18GHz bandwidth maybe you can get away with larger components.
|
OK Bruce? please explain !
You say ? (The 8484 is a dione power sensor.? Many other HP diode sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.)
I do not understand ??? also is dione in the above line a typo
So Is the 8484A power sensor is a diode? front end ??
Paul
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: 19 May 2022 20:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
The 8484 is a dione power sensor.? Many other HP diode sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.
E.g. 8485D as opposed to 8485A
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@...>:
> From memory the 8484 power sensor is a diode? front end
>
>
>
> But a working 8481? or 8484 go for about ?120 to ?160 in the UK
> equivalent to a day’s wages
>
> And it would take best part of a day to modify busted thermocouples
> for a diode by the time you did any calibration
>
> Regards Paul
>
>
>
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> visitslovenija
> Sent: 19 May 2022 11:20
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
> sensor for HP meters
>
>
>
> An interesting and long running thread.
>
> Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and
> would like to have one working on the bench.
>
> Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has
> anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and
> modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but
> is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
The connecters are available, Binder make 3 types and they did cost ?10 , ? 13 ?and ?16? each ? Regarding Diode sensors do not forget the 430 meter was made for Diode sensors? also I believe the early 431 A had a switch position for Diode ? Personally looking for a modern meter ( not expensive ) for wave guide diode detectors but calibrated in dB Paul ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza
Sent: 19 May 2022 20:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters ? Talking about power sensor, I got lucky enough to get a (working) 436b and a WORKING \o/ sensor. But unfortunately, got it without the cable. Is there a cheaper source for the cable than ebay? ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- ? ? Em qui., 19 de mai. de 2022 às 13:41, visitslovenija <musto102@...> escreveu: An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
It is a type - I meant Diode The 8484 is a DIODE sensor - many other HP diode ensors have a D in the model number as explained B4 Cheers! Beruce Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@...>:
OK Bruce please explain !
You say (The 8484 is a dione power sensor. Many other HP diode sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.)
I do not understand ?? also is dione in the above line a typo
So Is the 8484A power sensor is a diode front end ??
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: 19 May 2022 20:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
The 8484 is a dione power sensor. Many other HP diode sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.
E.g. 8485D as opposed to 8485A
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@... <mailto:admin@...> >:
From memory the 8484 power sensor is a diode front end
But a working 8481 or 8484 go for about ?120 to ?160 in the UK
equivalent to a day’s wages
And it would take best part of a day to modify busted thermocouples
for a diode by the time you did any calibration
Regards Paul
From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
visitslovenija
Sent: 19 May 2022 11:20
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and
would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has
anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and
modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but
is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
Hi Bruce
Thank you for confirming the 8484A is a Diode front end and On re reading your previews mail again it is as clear as MUD
Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight
Paul
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: 19 May 2022 21:12 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters It is a type - I meant Diode The 8484 is a DIODE sensor - many other HP diode ensors have a D in the model number as explained B4 Cheers! Beruce Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@...>: OK Bruce please explain !
You say (The 8484 is a dione power sensor. Many other HP diode
sensors end with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.)
I do not understand ?? also is dione in the above line a typo
So Is the 8484A power sensor is a diode front end ??
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: 19 May 2022 20:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
The 8484 is a dione power sensor. Many other HP diode sensors end
with t "D" instead of an "A" in the model number.
E.g. 8485D as opposed to 8485A
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting Paul Bicknell <admin@...
<mailto:admin@...> >:
From memory the 8484 power sensor is a diode front end
But a working 8481 or 8484 go for about ?120 to ?160 in the UK
equivalent to a day’s wages
And it would take best part of a day to modify busted thermocouples
for a diode by the time you did any calibration
Regards Paul
From: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
visitslovenija
Sent: 19 May 2022 11:20
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and
would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price,
has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and
modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly,
but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
On 5/19/22 16:19, Paul Bicknell wrote: Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight Of that there can be NO doubt. But we all love you anyway. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Thank you Dave for those kind words of love
Paul
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 19 May 2022 21:26 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters On 5/19/22 16:19, Paul Bicknell wrote: Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight Of that there can be NO doubt. But we all love you anyway. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
The 8484A was the first diode sensor that HP produced , it was a horrible piece of equipment prone to drift especially if you got one with the black case .
Eventually HP redesigned the sensor to solve the issues and the new sensor was the 8481D
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On May 19, 2022, at 15:37, Paul Bicknell via groups.io <admin@...> wrote:
?Thank you Dave for those kind words of love
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 May 2022 21:26
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
On 5/19/22 16:19, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight Of that there can be NO doubt. But we all love you anyway. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
OK Dave
Re the 8484 I actually have 2 of the black 2 grey and one D version a lot better than my original 430 power meter and Sensor with an N connecter on it
So just a thought how dues the 8484A do its temperature compensation as I do not think I have ever looked at the CCT diagram for the 8484 A
Paul
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: 19 May 2022 22:08 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters The 8484A was the first diode sensor that HP produced , it was a horrible piece of equipment prone to drift especially if you got one with the black case . Eventually HP redesigned the sensor to solve the issues and the new sensor was the 8481D On May 19, 2022, at 15:37, Paul Bicknell via groups.io <admin@...> wrote:
?Thank you Dave for those kind words of love Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 May 2022 21:26
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
On 5/19/22 16:19, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight Of that there can be NO doubt. But we all love you anyway. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Paul Was in no way trying to solve everyones needs. It was just a terrible thing to waste the nice analog devices detector and the poor old HP435 on the shelf.? With the arduino in there I also get a usb 232 output the prints information. That was just because I could. It wasn't expensive but did require soldering various disassembly and such. Your diode approach sounds like a better answer to get the hp meter closer to teh?original design. Regards Paul.
|
The 8484A used a single diode and had no temperature compensation , I think that HP tried to minimize the impact of temperature variations by using a heavier all metal case .... the 8481D uses a thermistor
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Paul Bicknell via groups.io Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 4:22 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters OK Dave Re the 8484 I actually have 2 of the black 2 grey and one D version a lot better than my original 430 power meter and Sensor with an N connecter on it So just a thought how dues the 8484A do its temperature compensation as I do not think I have ever looked at the CCT diagram for the 8484 A Paul -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Lothar baier Sent: 19 May 2022 22:08 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters The 8484A was the first diode sensor that HP produced , it was a horrible piece of equipment prone to drift especially if you got one with the black case . Eventually HP redesigned the sensor to solve the issues and the new sensor was the 8481D On May 19, 2022, at 15:37, Paul Bicknell via groups.io <admin@...> wrote:
?Thank you Dave for those kind words of love Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 May 2022 21:26
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power
sensor for HP meters
On 5/19/22 16:19, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Do not worry about Typos as I must be the worst speller on this sight Of that there can be NO doubt. But we all love you anyway. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
You can get the connectors from binder which is preferred if you are in Europe ( RS Components , buerklin, farnell )? or you can buy them from amphenol !
A few words of wisdom though based on experience :
First of use connectors that are gold plated if you use other plating options you can end up with issues at low power levels ( noise ? thermal voltages ???? ) the second thing
is that you have to follow the original stackup of the cable , the agilent cable uses 12 wires but 2 wires are shielded separately and you have to keep it that way to avoid problems !
Back when I build up cables what I did is to order a 100ft 11730 cable from agilent which cost me about $1200 , I cut the cable in 3ft sections ordered C091 Amphenol connectors
and then used them to build the cables !
?
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/18/C09131C0122002-1285663.pdf
?
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Paul Bicknell via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
?
The connecters are available, Binder make 3 types and they did cost ?10 , ? 13 ?and ?16? each
?
Regarding Diode sensors do not forget the 430 meter was made for Diode sensors? also I believe the early 431 A had a switch position for Diode
?
Personally looking for a modern meter ( not expensive ) for wave guide diode detectors but calibrated in dB
Paul
?
From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza
Sent: 19 May 2022 20:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] A homemade diode power sensor for HP meters
?
Talking about power sensor, I got lucky enough to get a (working) 436b and a WORKING \o/ sensor. But unfortunately, got it without the cable. Is there a cheaper source for the cable than ebay?
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
?
?
Em qui., 19 de mai. de 2022 às 13:41, visitslovenija <musto102@...> escreveu:
An interesting and long running thread.
Like many, I have a bit of a soft spot for the old HP435 meters and would like to have one working on the bench.
Since broken detectors do show up now and again at a decent price, has anyone successfully reworked one with busted thermocouples and modified for a diode front end? I know it’s small and very fiddly, but is that not easier than trying to build one from scratch?
|
I may have missed it. But what diode was used and then how was it mounted please. If this was covered very sorry for repeating the question. Regards Paul
|
auto zero function explained on page 15 of the 8481A service manual.
|
Dave McGuire
Paul Bicknell
Alexandre Souza