Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Interesting... Wonder why they didn't put a CAS # by it then.? I guess because they labeled it non-hazardous? 1,6-hexadiol?seems more likely.? Pyrrolidines can be pretty nasty.
When they say acid salt #3 they?are referring to how the dye is neutralized.? So for example, it is very common that dyes like this are neutralized with tetrasodium.? It could be that or something else.
If you have a DOI # for that article, I might be able to find it for you.
-Frank
?
?
These have been studied & published... years ago, and the field is evolving.
This evening's bedtime reading on ink jet inks? via GC-MS, TLC, high performance liquid chromatography, LC-MS, etc.
.... at some point the recipe may appear -- Might not have to do much homework testing,? if already in the literature.
?
A few references state that Hp used:
?
N-(2-Hydroxyethyl)-2-pyrrolidone? (HP)
&
1,6-hexanediol (HP)
?
in their Hp? Ink Jet? inks...
?
The Acid Salt 3 is the question....? ?
Possible preservatives to prevent oxidation & bacterial growth, etc.
?
Can't seem to get my hands on a .pdf? of what seems to be a good reference, age appropriate:
?
Aginsky, V. N. (1996). Dating and Characterizing Writing, Stamp Pad and Jet Printer Inks by Gas Chromatography / Mass ?Spectrometry.? International ?Journal of Forensic Document Examiners, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp.103-115
?
?
?
?
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
?
These have been studied & published... years ago, and the field is evolving.
This evening's bedtime reading on ink jet inks? via GC-MS, TLC, high performance liquid chromatography, LC-MS, etc.
.... at some point the recipe may appear -- Might not have to do much homework testing,? if already in the literature.
?
A few references state that Hp used:
?
N-(2-Hydroxyethyl)-2-pyrrolidone? (HP)
&
1,6-hexanediol (HP)
?
in their Hp? Ink Jet? inks...
?
The Acid Salt 3 is the question....? ?
Possible preservatives to prevent oxidation & bacterial growth, etc.
?
Can't seem to get my hands on a .pdf? of what seems to be a good reference, age appropriate:
?
Aginsky, V. N. (1996). Dating and Characterizing Writing, Stamp Pad and Jet Printer Inks by Gas Chromatography / Mass ?Spectrometry.? International ?Journal of Forensic Document Examiners, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp.103-115
?
?
?
?
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Also, while the dye is Food Black 2, its salt form is not known.? HP isn't sharing that.? I'm not a printer ink maker, but different types of salts can have drastic implications on the characteristics of the organic they are complexed with.? I'm more familiar with this from a pharma standpoint - drugs with the same API can have very different efficacies based on their salt form.
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:48?PM Frank Masciocchi < fmashockie@...> wrote: Gotcha.? Very curious what that 'alkyldiol' is listed on the most recent MSDS I shared.? It doesn't have a CAS # and it says proprietary.? Could be a nonionic surfactant like Tween.??
Keep us posted on this project! I'd be interested/curious to know how far you get with the tools you have at home!
-Frank??
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Gotcha.? Very curious what that 'alkyldiol' is listed on the most recent MSDS I shared.? It doesn't have a CAS # and it says proprietary.? Could be a nonionic surfactant like Tween.??
Keep us posted on this project! I'd be interested/curious to know how far you get with the tools you have at home!
-Frank??
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
A PerkinElmer Elan 6000 - that thing must weigh a ton!? Which Shimadzu unit do you have? Is this for a home lab!?? If so that it is awesome. I hope you're not using H2 for carrier gas lol.??
Sephadex G-25 for affinity chromatography I assume?? G-10 is for small molecule.? I guess it depends on what you're interested in.? Are you looking for more residual solvents? Or understanding more about the dye and/or additional additives?
GC would require a midpolar column.? Something like Agilent's VF-35ms.? Good for resolving aromatics with substituted?polar groups.? Still think it is unlikely you'd be able to find a method that would resolve all components of the dye on GC-MS considering the molar mass of the dye.
?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
?
perhaps the "Clover" formulation is the same.
?
The Acid Salt 3 may not be such a mystery; probably simple,? as a 1st guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_salt
?
Anyway, need to check the pH, and do a titration of the Hp printer dye,? just for fun.
?
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Clover is the supplier.? It lists the product name on a page I didn't share initially (attached below).? However, it is interesting they omitted the dye.
?
But Roy makes a good point about older datasheets possibly not including all compounds of interest.? Here is one from 2013.? This one includes 'alkyldiol' which they have listed as proprietary.??
?
This one also has Food Black 2 listed.? Acid salt #3 indicates the dye is neutralized as a salt.? But which salt they aren't disclosing. Link is below.
?
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://images10.newegg.com/UploadFilesForNewegg/itemintelligence/HP/sp_51604arevb_ca_eng_v091400297325342.pdf
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
hmm,? not certain what the? 2015? "Clover"? Ink? data?? is from,?? or for... ?
?
For now, ... would be focusing only on the plain Black inks used? only? for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer,
? ( So, only Hp Ink Cartridges?? model#'s: Hp 9226a ? &?? Hp? 51604a ,? designed for the ThinkJet 2225 itself );
?
--? because the physics and thermal hydrodynamics of the Hp 2225 ThinkJet printer, as eloquently described in the Hp Journal article,
are tailored to these particular Inks and their cartridge, temperature,? & to a lesser extent, expulsion volume, and velocity. ?
?
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
hi Roy,
Perfect, thank you for the MSDS !
?That adds a bit more info and reading the Patents has also illuminated.
?
Yes, likely other versions of the MSDS or Materials Safety sheet inserted in the Ink Jet box might have other, additional info,
they get updated as the various laws change, so Engineering Production Due Diligence? practices would follow.
?
rick
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Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
It could be that Food Black 2 is used but what they have made confidential is the salt that they use to neutralize the dye.? In this case Food black 2 has 4 sulfonic acid groups that need to be neutralized to stabilize it.? Sometimes this is done with Sodium.? It could be they are using something else that they don't wish to disclose.? This does have implications for the GC-MS analysis and sample preparation.? It can make analysis more difficult requiring some kind of acidic work up to remove the salt.
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Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
Brought a 260 q meter back to life earlier this year.? Had some idea of what happened with them and hp, but not that detailed.? Thanks for that!? :)
? ? FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There were
two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter, RX-Meter and
a series of signal generators,? and Boonton Electronics who made RF
millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have been another
Boonton company.
? ? Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make
Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to
Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those who
had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the confusion
of the names and difficulty of finding authentic information on some of
the devices, the list became a sort of general catch all for anything
with boonton in the name.
? ? ?From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I
think we should not object to questions being posted here although they
probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made some
unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
? ? There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at the
-hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics. However, its
worth a look.
? ? ?Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s and
on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller companies,
like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.
On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
> There is a Boonton group.
>
> DaveD
> KC0WJN
>
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
|
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There were two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter, RX-Meter and a series of signal generators, and Boonton Electronics who made RF millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have been another Boonton company.
Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those who had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the confusion of the names and difficulty of finding authentic information on some of the devices, the list became a sort of general catch all for anything with boonton in the name.
From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I think we should not object to questions being posted here although they probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made some unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at the -hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics. However, its worth a look.
Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s and on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller companies, like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote: There is a Boonton group.
DaveD
KC0WJN
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Well, RIT dye contains salt, and what dyes doesn't FDA think are food dyes? They allow Red #40, and yellow #5... It is said that if you hear the sound of hoof beats on the commons, it is more likely to be horses than zebras. I think it is quite likely that HP would have used a cheap, easy to get dye like used by RIT in their printer. By doing so, they get to piggy back on all the years RIT sold their safe product to consumers. The salt in RIT dye serves to improve its permanent nature. -Chuck Harris On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 12:36:09 -0700 "Roy Thistle" <roy.thistle@...> wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:17 AM, gren wrote:
Possibly the MSDS
HP MSDS data for 2002, for 51604A Black
Component/Substance CAS Number ?EU Number % by Weight
Ethylene glycol ? 107-21-1 203-473-3 <35%
Triethylene glycol 112-27-6 203-953-2 <15%
Food Black 2 acid salt confidential confidential <6%
Water 7732-18-5 231-791-2 > 50%
note that the secret sauce is the Food Black 2 @ acid salt combo.
They are not fessing up to what the 'acid salt is' or how much of it
is used.
2002 is relatively recent; but, older MSDS might even be less
informative... as they are only required in them... new or old... to
mostly list 'hazardous' materials... and one man's hazard is another
man's fun, on YouTube.
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Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
I personally don't mind your post. I just mentioned the other group in case you were unaware of it. DaveD KC0WJN
Thanks for all the fish.
============================== All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994) ==============================
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 4, 2024, at 17:57, Bill Berzinskas via groups.io <bberzinskas@...> wrote:
? It looked very underloved but if that's not the case I can move this post.
There is a Boonton group. DaveD KC0WJN
Thanks for all the fish.
============================== All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994) ============================== ? Boonton stuff ok in this group?? If not, I can delete.? ??
I picked up a mostly dead Boonton 92BD RF Millivoltmeter, seemed like a handy tool should i get it working. I've replaced the electrolytics and one of the LM723 regulators bringing back _some life_.. I started through the calibration steps and all power supplies are adjusted to spec. I move on down the list of performance / calibration steps and there are steps that involve adjusting 0v while monitoring the recorder port. This port is currently ALWAYS presenting ~13.5v.
I have tested with a scope all of the test points in the chassis and the chopper amp and first pass looks _mostly_ ok in those areas. There is one test on the chopper board, test #14 that shows no trace but all others are ok. On the Slope Amp in and out, I'm not seeing much - noise at best. I do hear noise from the mechanical chopper.
I'm assuming the digital board is ok, because the display does function, might be a naive assumption. Visually, I get an UP arrow, DB and the flashing dash.
Anyone worked on these before? Not looking for THE answer, just guidance in debugging. I'm using this manual from BAMA and have attached a few relevant clips of the schematic.
Thanks for any help,?
Bill - WW1H?
<Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.19 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.44 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.22 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.37 PM.png>
|
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
It looked very underloved but if that's not the case I can move this post.
There is a Boonton group. DaveD KC0WJN
Thanks for all the fish.
============================== All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994) ============================== ? Boonton stuff ok in this group?? If not, I can delete.? ??
I picked up a mostly dead Boonton 92BD RF Millivoltmeter, seemed like a handy tool should i get it working. I've replaced the electrolytics and one of the LM723 regulators bringing back _some life_.. I started through the calibration steps and all power supplies are adjusted to spec. I move on down the list of performance / calibration steps and there are steps that involve adjusting 0v while monitoring the recorder port. This port is currently ALWAYS presenting ~13.5v.
I have tested with a scope all of the test points in the chassis and the chopper amp and first pass looks _mostly_ ok in those areas. There is one test on the chopper board, test #14 that shows no trace but all others are ok. On the Slope Amp in and out, I'm not seeing much - noise at best. I do hear noise from the mechanical chopper.
I'm assuming the digital board is ok, because the display does function, might be a naive assumption. Visually, I get an UP arrow, DB and the flashing dash.
Anyone worked on these before? Not looking for THE answer, just guidance in debugging. I'm using this manual from BAMA and have attached a few relevant clips of the schematic.
Thanks for any help,?
Bill - WW1H?
<Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.19 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.44 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.22 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.37 PM.png>
|
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
There is a Boonton group. DaveD KC0WJN
Thanks for all the fish.
============================== All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994) ==============================
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 4, 2024, at 17:45, Bill Berzinskas via groups.io <bberzinskas@...> wrote:
? Boonton stuff ok in this group?? If not, I can delete.? ??
I picked up a mostly dead Boonton 92BD RF Millivoltmeter, seemed like a handy tool should i get it working. I've replaced the electrolytics and one of the LM723 regulators bringing back _some life_.. I started through the calibration steps and all power supplies are adjusted to spec. I move on down the list of performance / calibration steps and there are steps that involve adjusting 0v while monitoring the recorder port. This port is currently ALWAYS presenting ~13.5v.
I have tested with a scope all of the test points in the chassis and the chopper amp and first pass looks _mostly_ ok in those areas. There is one test on the chopper board, test #14 that shows no trace but all others are ok. On the Slope Amp in and out, I'm not seeing much - noise at best. I do hear noise from the mechanical chopper.
I'm assuming the digital board is ok, because the display does function, might be a naive assumption. Visually, I get an UP arrow, DB and the flashing dash.
Anyone worked on these before? Not looking for THE answer, just guidance in debugging. I'm using this manual from BAMA and have attached a few relevant clips of the schematic.
Thanks for any help,?
Bill - WW1H?
<Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.19 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.44 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.40.22 PM.png> <Screenshot 2024-10-04 at 5.35.37 PM.png>
|
Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting
Boonton stuff ok in this group?? If not, I can delete.? ??
I picked up a mostly dead Boonton 92BD RF Millivoltmeter, seemed like a handy tool should i get it working. I've replaced the electrolytics and one of the LM723 regulators bringing back _some life_.. I started through the calibration steps and all power supplies are adjusted to spec. I move on down the list of performance / calibration steps and there are steps that involve adjusting 0v while monitoring the recorder port. This port is currently ALWAYS presenting ~13.5v.
I have tested with a scope all of the test points in the chassis and the chopper amp and first pass looks _mostly_ ok in those areas. There is one test on the chopper board, test #14 that shows no trace but all others are ok. On the Slope Amp in and out, I'm not seeing much - noise at best. I do hear noise from the mechanical chopper.
I'm assuming the digital board is ok, because the display does function, might be a naive assumption. Visually, I get an UP arrow, DB and the flashing dash.
Anyone worked on these before? Not looking for THE answer, just guidance in debugging. I'm using this manual from BAMA and have attached a few relevant clips of the schematic.
Thanks for any help,?
Bill - WW1H?
|
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
Here's one from 2015.? It seems they omitted the Food black two or Black 7984 (a complex diazo dye) which is cataloged by NIH. Not sure if it is the same since it says proprietary and does not give a CAS #.? ? Probably because they stopped using it as it is not permitted for use in the US and Europe.? As Roy said, the MSDS will likely only list the hazardous materials.? It is a good starting point though.??
?
If the dye is anything like Black 7984, you're going to have a tough time resolving that with GC-MS.? At 800 g/mol, that is going to be tough to sufficiently vaporize.? You might be better off with LC-MS to characterize the dye and then GC-MS for the smaller residual and volatiles.
?
-Frank 
|
Frank Mashockie
