This is a promo video from HP about their service center in the Netherlands.
With thanks to Frans Koek who provided the video.
<>
Lots of equipment and computers have fun.
-Rik

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957 I
started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called
EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday
when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian
Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree
how to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as
I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up
on the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality
tools in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My
first weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too
expensive fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Mar 19, 2022, at 19:35, Lothar baier via groups.io <Lothar@...> wrote:

?Back when i was a kit there were no cheap tools , in Germany we had all small local stores selling tools and all of it was name brand quality stuff .
As far as soldering irons concerned ERSA was the common name but you had to either go to CONRAD or order the iron, weller was mostly used by commercial users and out if reach for hobbyists at the time .
Dad bought me a ERSA soldering station for Christmas when i was 12 and granny got hit up mostly for hand tools usually as birthday presents.
I got aquainted with weller at my first job and then bought a rework station through my place of employment mostly because they got a hell of a discount, i stayed loyal to weller until i got a job at Nokia , they used JBC and once i used one of their stations I ditched weller

On Mar 19, 2022, at 15:52, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:

?Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me!

My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours!

First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her.

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Mar 19, 2022, at 15:52, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:

?Hi Paul, yes 1949 for me!

My Dad was at the Cavendish Labs in Cambridge so I got to cut my teeth on all sorts of discarded electronic bits and pieces, when I was about 12 he got a lift back in the Cavendish van with a vast, non-functional Cossor 1049 'scope "to see if I could fix it" - on reflection, should you really give a 12 year old a box with a beefy 400V HT and a 4KV half Amp EHT supply and suggest he pokes around inside it? - as it happened it was easy to fix and two gassey valves and a burnt out pot later I had my first scope (or 'Oscillograph' as it was actually called) It's still out in the barn somewhere, I should dig it out and see if it can be fired up one day - it had a very pretty blue phosphor in the tube I seem to recall and probably emits a lifetimes X-ray radiation dose in about 8 hours!

First TV I fixed was a neighbour's Pye VT4 when I was about 14 I think, I got my first real mains electric shock on that too, learnt a valuable lesson about never assume always check! It was out of it's case sitting on my bench and I'd been getting ready to put it back before leaving for school. When got back, picked the chassis up to slide it into the case and ...Bam!... really got zapped but I knew I'd unplugged it before I left that morning. Of course what I didn't know was that my mum had plugged it back in to show the neighbour how it was now all working.....we both learnt from that, she still dined out on how she nearly killed her son when she was in her 90's bless her.

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On 19 Mar 2022, at 19:30, Tom Gardner <tggzzz@...> wrote:

?Ditto. I still have few bits of my EE20 knocking around.

I presume you have seen
http://www.hansotten.com/electronic-kits/ee-series/ee8-ee20-a20/
and
https://archive.org/details/ee20-colour-en

I don't have any of the concentrated HCl + iron sulphate my father bought home on the bus, but I do have some lumps of sodium - and the red hot (soldering) poker.

On 19/03/22 19:44, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957

I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul ?located south coast England

?

-----Original Message-----

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol

Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Dave regarding ?good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 ?and a half

hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing ?(total ?5

Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT

relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week ?by a teacher that was

not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any

tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation

between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach

several ?electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how

to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and

bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I

had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on

the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a

Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must

admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 ?sets of plyers ?in my

draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and

?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul

-----Original Message-----

From: [email protected]

[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave

McGuire

Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

????Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was

(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools

in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"

I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first

weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

????:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just

because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive

fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't

afford anything. Been there...

????I see your point. ?I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

????"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" ?They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

????My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

??????????????-Dave

--

Dave McGuire, AK4HZ

New Kensington, PA

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Hi Adrian

I think I must be a few years younger than you as I was born in !957
I started learning with the Philips electronic kits think it was called EE8 at the age of 10 but already dismantled a TV during one holiday when I was about 6

Regards Paul located south coast England

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian Nicol
Sent: 19 March 2022 19:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Mar 19, 2022, at 14:32, Adrian Nicol via groups.io <Adrian@...> wrote:

?I also grew up in the UK and was at secondary school (age 11-16) in the early 1960s and had the same experience as Paul, because I went to a village college we also had 2 hours a week of what was known as 'Rural Science' added to the other practical subjects, we had just over half an acre of cultivated land, a small fruit orchard and a couple of large glasshouses where we got to put farming theory into practice (and took our share of the fruit and veg harvest home!). All practical subjects were taught with the view that we would likely be getting jobs that would need those skills for real too, so we got 'work experience' weeks from time to time where we were sent off to local companies for a week and worked on the shop floor. The result was mostly a whole bunch of very employable 16 year old kids leaving school with the basic skills and confidence to set us up for life.

Oh yes, my first soldering was done with a fire-heated iron too, Dad gave me a crystal set kit for my 8th birthday and we sat up building it that night, heating the iron on the kitchen coal fire. Strange, that must have been March 1957 and I still remember that night so clearly!

Adrian

On 19/03/2022 18:41, Paul Bicknell wrote:
Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half
hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5
Hours minimum ) this all changed and a new subject called ICT
relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was
not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any
tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation
between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool I also had to teach
several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how
to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and
bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I
had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on
the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a
Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts ) I must
admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my
draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and
?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro"
I understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Hi Dave regarding good quality tools and how to use them

In the UK when I was at school we had a minimum of 1 and a half hours per week of Metalwork , Woodwork , Technical drawing (total 5 Hours minimum )
this all changed and a new subject called ICT relapsed it all with less than 2 hours a week by a teacher that was not able to do the subject

So we ended up with a generation that never learnt how to use any tools until they went to collage subsequently we have a generation between 33 to 40 that are dangerous with a tool
I also had to teach several electronic and mechanical graduates that had their degree how to solder

Personally I had a screw driver in my hand from the age of 5 and bought my first electric soldering iron with my 10 birthday money as I had difficulty soldering Jack plugs with an iron I had to worm up on the gas stove

And by the time I was 19 it was worn out and I replaced it with a Weller that is still good 40 years later ( several new parts )
I must admit it is difficult to convince someone 10 sets of plyers in my draw will cost ?600 to replace when they think they are worth ?30 and ?40 would be to expensive

Regards Paul





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 19 March 2022 15:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BS, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Spread the word -- Swap Meet Returns!

On 3/19/22 01:55, Alexandre Souza wrote:

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Well it's good to be known for something, at least. :-)

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

:-)

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

I see your point. I think (and my thoughts on this are evolving with the help of this conversation) that the biggest problem I have is the younger folk not understanding or believing when/if these cheap Chinese instruments are inferior.

"Hahahaa, you're dumb, you spend thousands of dollars for an oscilloscope, but I got one for thirty bucks!!" They're all equivalent in the eyes of many of these people, it seems.

My thinking is that, whenever possible, we should be mindful of WHY people like us have respect for high-end equipment, and impart that knowledge to the younger generations, so they can appreciate them too.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Hey, bad-mood-Dave!

Children takes the bad quality chinese crap because of price. I was
(still I am, surely) a very poor guy and had to use bad quality tools
in my childhood. And suffered the effects on that. When I went "pro" I
understood the value of good, quality and expensive tools. My first
weller soldering iron I got when I was 15, and I still use it!

But for hobby...not everyone can afford an E8285A. I have one just
because I got it for free. Around $2000 here in Brazil, too expensive
fot 98% of all us Brazilians

I am happy children are buying crap tools. In the past theu couldn't
afford anything. Been there...

Was it possible to recycle the copper removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit paths, when there was substantial empty space on the finished board, so less would have to be etched away ?

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote:

Hi Lothar!

Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure if its needed.

?

Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have some good stuff.

?

Regards

Jeff Kruth

?

---

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#123960) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic
Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [ka2ivy@...]

On Mar 19, 2022, at 11:31, greenboxmaven via groups.io <ka2ivy@...> wrote:

?

Was it possible to recycle the copper removed by these etchants? Was it possible in mass manufacture of circuit boards to laminate copper outlines of the crcuit paths, when there was substantial empty space on the finished board, so less would have to be etched away ?

??? Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 3/19/22 10:29, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote:

Hi Lothar!

Two questions: When you used Ammonium Persulphate, did you have to add an activator (few drops of something) to make it etch faster?? remember Kepro selling a small bottle with their "kit" that have the "magic" activator. Not sure if its needed.

?

Second: What is your eBay handle, sounds like you have some good stuff.

?

Regards

Jeff Kruth

?

---

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#123960) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic
Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [ka2ivy@...]