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Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

Thank you all, great input.
From these choices, it sounds like a stereo microscope on a boom would be ideal. I do tend to work on all sorts of positions and oftentimes spill outside of the desk/bench. Also, some of the boards I need to examine are too large to fit under a microscope with a stand.? I'm not sure exactly how well this relative freedom to move the microscope around works. But the idea to have that available is very exciting - I'm really tired of using my multiple hand magnifiers with their own lights and often another flashlight on the other hand. My eyes get terribly strained with that setup.
Probably a stupid question, but I know nothing on the "stereo microscope" topic - are these working well for people wearing glasses?
Thank you.
Radu.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 10:29 AM John Griessen via <john=[email protected]> wrote:
On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via wrote:
> On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via wrote:
>> Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've
>> decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
>> There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with
>> some specific models?
>> Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
>> I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB,
>> HDMI?...
>> Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
>> Thank you for your input.
>
>? ? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
>
>? ? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten
> years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
>
>? ? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had
> an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one
> immediately.
>
>? ? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing.
>
>? ? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting.
>
>? ? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
>
>? ? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper
> lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this
> suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to
> eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
>
>? ???????????? -Dave

Hi Radu,

I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources
to sell.

The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an Olympus? Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not
liking it.

When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets me move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus).

I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use
one effectively yet.

Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a? Vision Engineering Greenough for sale.

Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the most sense.

I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed and quality will
improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in the micro world...? Also you will notice more since flat view
onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well.

The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate
solder paste, etc.

Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned...
--
John Griessen
Albuquerque NM
Re: Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen

 

Maybe I have the same problem as the 8656: the cover screws for the 8643 is NOT 6-32 (USA, national coarse), nor is it 6-40 (USA, national fine). The diameter is very close to USA #6, a finer thread than 32 threads per inch. It has to be some metric size that the local specialty guy did not recognize.

Thank you Goran for the idea of looking at the parts list. I will try to find an 8643 manual on line somewhere and see what it says.

Bill

On 3/17/2025 5:17 AM, G?ran Krusell via groups.io wrote:
p. 6-36. 4 * MP101, 6-32.
G?ran
Re: Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen

 

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Asian mystery screws that are almost imperial measurements...

Jim

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Bill Carver via groups.io <bill@...>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2025 1:50 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen
?
I went to a hardware specialty store with one of the Torx screws from
the 8643. They said it was not a metric diameter. Nor was it 32 threads
per inch, a US "coarse" thread. They said it look like it was a US?
#6-40, an uncommon but US-standard "fine thread". Today I bought a
baggie with 20 and.......it appears to be close to the right diameter
but it is not 40 threads per inch.

I have not figured out what the thread is, but it is NOT a US fine
threaded, 6-40.

Bill


On 3/17/2025 3:54 AM, Steve Hendrix wrote:
> On 2025-03-17 12:25 AM, Wayne Eckert via groups.io wrote:
>> Hi can someone tell me what thread the screws are that hold the back
>> panel on? HP8656. I am assuming they are 5/32 as 3mm and 4mm metric
>> are either too small or too big. or wrong thread
>
> There's also a 3.5mm standard thread, used on IEEE-488 connectors,
> that might be a possibility.
>
> Steve Hendrix
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen

 

I went to a hardware specialty store with one of the Torx screws from the 8643. They said it was not a metric diameter. Nor was it 32 threads per inch, a US "coarse" thread. They said it look like it was a US? #6-40, an uncommon but US-standard "fine thread". Today I bought a baggie with 20 and.......it appears to be close to the right diameter but it is not 40 threads per inch.

I have not figured out what the thread is, but it is NOT a US fine threaded, 6-40.

Bill

On 3/17/2025 3:54 AM, Steve Hendrix wrote:
On 2025-03-17 12:25 AM, Wayne Eckert via groups.io wrote:
Hi can someone tell me what thread the screws are that hold the back panel on? HP8656. I am assuming they are 5/32 as 3mm and 4mm metric are either too small or too big. or wrong thread
There's also a 3.5mm standard thread, used on IEEE-488 connectors, that might be a possibility.

Steve Hendrix
Re: E5052A Power On Test (3.3V Bus Supply)

 

Thanks.
I had some free time today and experimented with a discretely designed gain block in place of the MMIC. I think I'm hitting the limits of the E5052A now but I managed -170dBc/Hz at 10kHz offset and about -178dBc/Hz for the far out noise floor. I couldn't improve on about -160dBc/Hz at 1 kHz offset. This is a slight improvement but I think the E5052A is becoming the weak link. I've seen the PN2060C phase noise analyser by BG6KHC on qsl and this looks to be an interesting piece of equipment for $849.?
?
I've linked to it below.
?
Welcome to BG6KHC’s website
?
Has anyone got any experience of this device?
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

On 3/17/25 07:59, Dave McGuire via groups.io wrote:
On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB, HDMI?...
Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
Thank you for your input.
? The Mantis by Vision Engineering.
? On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.
? The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance.? I had an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab.? I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one immediately.
? My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing.
? Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting.
? Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.
? Lighting is next.? People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper lighting system makes all the difference.? There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve.? The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to eliminate shadows.? (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)
???????????? -Dave
Hi Radu,

I've got Greenough scopes (binocular) by Olympus and Vision Engineering (precursor to Mantis), and fiber light rings and sources to sell.

The Vision Engineering ones are kind of large, but trying an Olympus Greenough would be painless -- you could return it if not liking it.

When I assemble SMT boards I use a Greenough on a boom that lets me move with fine dials in X and Y (and of course Z for focus).

I've also tried the Vision Engineering and it would probably be a speedup tool, but Ive not afforded enough bench top space to use one effectively yet.

Also have Nikon SMZ-7 and a Vision Engineering Greenough for sale.

Booms to hold them are super heavy, so looking locally makes the most sense.

I agree with Dave, that if you want to do prototypes your speed and quality will
improve drastically with stereo vision -- it puts your "there" in the micro world... Also you will notice more since flat view onscreen doesn't translate to 3D in your mind well.

The large screens might be OK for some things, but not for active seeing when looking for tiny cracks, missing solder, adequate solder paste, etc.

Now to get busy cleaning and photographing the ones I mentioned...
--
John Griessen
Albuquerque NM
Re: 3" disks for 8566A/B, 8568A/B on HP 9000 Series 200 Computers - Any interest in images?

 

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Hello Ulf,

The HP "ASCII" files can be converted to a Windows txt form with HPDIR. I wrote some time ago a small Windows utility that is doing this, also in batch mode (multiple files at once). I attached the 3 ASCII files from your first disk 08568-10004 (since they are small). In case it is interesting, the small program is available (I just don't want to fill the storage space of the group).

To save the binary HP PROG files, you have to load them in a HP RM Basic, and save them as ASCII (which can be converted to Windows txt format as above). This can be also done using Olivier Smet's? HP98x6 emulator and running a HP RM Basic on it on a Windows machine. The attached pdf file is describing the step by step procedure.

I will check during the week at least one-two of your PROG files for their integrity.

BR,

George/Gyorgy

On 3/17/2025 2:14 PM, Ulf Kylenfall via groups.io wrote:
?
I used an old 9122 Disk drive. Was able to read the disks and uploaded
the zipped contents a few moments ago into the group files area:
?
HP-200 Computer files used by 8566 and 8568 Spectrum analyzers ca 1984.
Folder names = Disk numbers. Read from a HP9122 disk drive, copied using
HPDIR project with TotalCommander. Files in original "PROG" or "ASCII" format.
I looked for ways to convert them into Windows .TXT format but ran out of energy...
?
It would be interesting if someone managed to check the integrity of the files
and of course - if they are usable.
?
Cheers
?
Ulf
SM6GXV
-- 
Gy?rgy Albert
Mob +40-722-304534

COPYRIGHT.txt
COPYRIGHT.txt
TEXT_68.txt
TEXT_68.txt
TEXT_6836.txt
TEXT_6836.txt
HP Emulator guide_V1.2.pdf
HP Emulator guide_V1.2.pdf

Re: 8643A failure

 

This is a common failure point on these.? Simply removing and reinstalling the connector to the backplane board on mine returned it to specified voltage.? I then cleaned it with denatured alcohol and a toothbrush.? Glad it fixed yours!
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

If you do consider getting a stereo microscope then I'd recommend something with prism lenses as this allows a more natural viewing angle. This does come at some expense of optical quality compared to the straight through stereo microscopes but it is worth it in my opinion. The quality of the prisms in the angled stereo microscopes is therefore very important and my Zeiss microscope is very impressive in this respect. I've not tried the Amcomm models but I've heard good reviews.
?
Also be aware that the straight microscopes often have a very restricted effective viewing area.? This can be like looking down a very narrow pipe and this can be tiresome and frustrating and also it's easy to get neck strain after a while as you have to look down the eyepieces all the time.
?
Also, just to clarify, the Mantis units at work are the Elite model and they have more than one magnifier fitted. This is another area where a stereo microscope can compete well. My Zeiss has a full (and very smooth) zoom control from low magnification to high magnification. It also has a wider viewing area than the Mantis.
?
To focus the Mantis you have to move the whole Mantis up and down by hand. This is absolutely fine for inspection work as you can hold the PCB in your hand and rotate it and find focus by moving the PCB with your hands.
?
Where the Mantis struggles in my opinion is when you want to do intricate soldering work on something that isn't flat. You have to set the item down on a bench and then fiddle with the height of the (very wobbly) Mantis in order to find focus. It's harder to control the focus, the work area is less and you have to re-find focus if you swap to a different magnifier. For all these reasons, a decent stereo microscope outclasses the Mantis in my opinion. That's why I recommend that you try before you buy. Don't just look down it and inspect something. Pretend to solder something and see if you are OK with the way it has to be moved up and down to focus itself.
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

In the case of the Mantis, I would recommend to 'try before you buy' as the Mantis doesn't suit everyone. At work opinions are divided, some people avoid using the Mantis as they get distorted vision when using it. There is an adjustment control on the side of the instrument to counter this effect, but some people still can't use it. Other people really like it.
?
I think the Mantis is very bright and sharp and it offers a degree of 3D vision if you move your eyes slightly. It's at its best for SMD inspection work where it truly excels. I'm happy to use one but the view they give isn't as natural as something from a high quality stereo microscope.
?
A good stereo microscope can offer a wide view area and if a Barlow lens is fitted to it, the height above the work can be in the order of 120-150mm. This is a good height in my opinion.
?
Here at home I use an old Zeiss GSZ stereo microscope. It is a bit tired now and probably needs to have all the optics cleaned inside. However, I think it is much better than a Mantis when it comes to doing soldering work or any kind of intricate work. It has an external KL1500 cold light unit with it which gives very natural lighting.
?
The Mantis is best suited for inspection in my opinion with very sharp optics and very clinical lighting and a degree of 3D when you move your eyes.
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

On 3/17/25 00:02, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
Also, what to watch for? Specs, minimal magnification that crosses over a good threshold?
I have a couple of large screens at my bench - I'm thinking this will be best done by shooting this over to one of those. USB, HDMI?...
Lighting/LEDs making a significant difference?
Thank you for your input.
The Mantis by Vision Engineering.

On the prototyping bench I moved from a Nikon SMZ-1 with an after-market LED ring light to a 1st-generation Mantis about ten years ago, and upgraded to a Mantis Elite last year.

The Nikon is a binocular inspection microscope with great optics (typical of Nikon) and excellent overall performance. I had an opportunity to try out a Mantis when visiting a customer's lab. I was astonished by its capabilities and purchased one immediately.

My upgrade to the Mantis Elite last year was a similarly impressive thing.

Two important considerations are binocular optical paths and lighting.

Binocular optics are, IMO, absolutely required for SMT work.

Lighting is next. People often skimp on this and use a random desk lamp or whatever happens to be lying around, but a proper lighting system makes all the difference. There are cheap aftermarket LED right lights that are surprisingly effective; this suggests that the lighting really isn't that difficult a problem to solve. The key is 360-degree, oblique, even lighting to eliminate shadows. (lighting is built-in on the Mantis microscopes)

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 09:02:20PM -0700, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.

There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
If you have an opportunity, check out a Mantis. Sometimes you can find good deals on used
ones. They are absolutely amazing - a binocular scope without eyepieces. There's been a
lot of writeup on them on eevblog.


--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Linux/Unix - We don't do windows
Re: 3" disks for 8566A/B, 8568A/B on HP 9000 Series 200 Computers - Any interest in images?

 

?
I used an old 9122 Disk drive. Was able to read the disks and uploaded
the zipped contents a few moments ago into the group files area:
?
HP-200 Computer files used by 8566 and 8568 Spectrum analyzers ca 1984.
Folder names = Disk numbers. Read from a HP9122 disk drive, copied using
HPDIR project with TotalCommander. Files in original "PROG" or "ASCII" format.
I looked for ways to convert them into Windows .TXT format but ran out of energy...
?
It would be interesting if someone managed to check the integrity of the files
and of course - if they are usable.
?
Cheers
?
Ulf
SM6GXV
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

Agreed wholeheartedly. I bought a second-hand Leitz stereo microscope many years ago and have used it for all my SMD soldering. About a year ago I bought a LED ring light and that really made a difference! Before that I just had an IKEA swan-neck LED spot, but the ring is so much brighter and has less shadows. You can pick them up from eBay for not much money at all.
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

I agree with Steve Hendrix, stereo or binocular zoom microscopes are key to good eye hand coordination which requires depth perception lacking on 2D displays used with digital microscopes.
?
Joe
Re: Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen

 

p. 6-36. 4 * MP101, 6-32.
G?ran
Re: 8643A failure

 

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Dear Bill,

Many thanks for the update.?

My 8643A has displayed this fault code from time to time.

I will check the connectors carefully when I take it out of the rack for oven power supply repair.

Using tinned connectors was very poor form for HP, but of course the detail was not very visible.

By contrast, as a young engineer working on things for the US Gov’t, I was surprised to see that our heatsink blocks were gold plated on all surfaces. There was no electrical or thermal reason for this, so I naively asked my superiors why we spent so much money doing this. This resulted in pitying looks, smiles and the explanation- “When the sponsor visits it helps him to see that he is getting value for money on the contract.” Another lesson learned.

Regards,

Alwyn
_____________________________________________________

Alwyn Seeds, Director
SynOptika Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU,
England.


SynOptika Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 04606737
Registered Office: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU, United Kingdom.
_____________________________________________________
hp8970a recallibration attenuator help

 

hello all I have a hp8970A meter that has been turned off for a long time. I turned it back on and I know that the internal attenuator needs to be recalibrated with the special command function SP 33.0. I re-entered the ENR table of the head but I don't remember if the temperature also needs to be entered or not just for the recalibration of the attenuator does anyone remember? thank iw5bsf Roberto
Re: Threads for screws on 8656 Siggen

 

On 2025-03-17 12:25 AM, Wayne Eckert via groups.io wrote:
Hi can someone tell me what thread the screws are that hold the back panel on? HP8656. I am assuming they are 5/32 as 3mm and 4mm metric are either too small or too big. or wrong thread
There's also a 3.5mm standard thread, used on IEEE-488 connectors, that might be a possibility.

Steve Hendrix
Re: microscope / high magnification camera options for soldering, faults, and other examinations/inspections

 

On 2025-03-17 12:02 AM, Radu Bogdan Dicher via groups.io wrote:
Having done enough (red) eye cracking smd soldering jobs or inspections in case of suspected failure (cold joints, etc.), I've decided to invest a bit on a better optical setup.
There's plenty of cameras on the marketplaces and retailers out there, but what are some better choices? Good experiences with some specific models?
I have used a stereo zoom microscope from Titan Tools for several decades, for soldering mostly down to 0603, sometimes 0402, and occasionally 0201. Stereo, because you really need the depth perception for that sort of soldering. Zoom, because you need the lower magnification to give enough field of view for ease of routine hand-soldering, but higher magnification when hunting a cracked trace etc. This unit goes from 7x, where it stays most of the time, up to 40x, and has an alternate pair of eyepieces to double the magnification, and an auxiliary objective lens to double again, so it actually completely covers 7x to 160x. For years I used a simple light bulb clamped to the stand for illumination; a couple years ago the LED ring illuminators came down in price and they're way better.

YMMV of course!

Steve Hendrix
421 - 440 of 150807