¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Date

Re: HP 8566B repair: -10V rail went down

 

"Bruce" <bruce@...> writes:

I agree that providing an uncurrent limited -10v was a mistake.

Some suggestions:
1) A loose part (screw, nut, washer) that found itself a place
shorting the -10v seems likely
2) A cap failure - how long was the 8566 off - long enough for the cap
to depolarize.
I hadn't considered that first possibility. Thanks for the hint! I did
at some point measure a short across the -10V rail, but I wasn't able to
reproduce the measurement. Maybe that could be a screw sometimes
shorting the rail. Will keep an eye out.

Do failing caps ever intermittently present shorts? I've read that most
8566 failures are from electrolytics, so I'm on the lookout for
that. But I'm a bit surprised that this rail is sometimes up and
sometimes not.

Thoughts on how to proceed:
Isolate sections of the power distribution on the PCB -pull cards,
pull connectors, etc.
If something smoked, it will be either a component on a PCB or the
motherboard (There are a few). Or it could be a PCB trace (bad news
if it is in a relatively inaccessible place.

Hardest but most through is to remove all cards, test for appropriate
voltages and then plug in a selection of cards. I usually start with
the control section (CPU, etc), then RF, then M/N, then 20/30. Don't
forget the front pannel, but it is easy to isolate (don't remember if
-10v is used on FP - think it is not).
For anyone else that sees this, the A8 rectifier assembly provides a
nice list of the assemblies fed by the various power rails. For the -10V
rail, I believe all the downstream modules are:

- A19 DAC
- A20 main coil driver
- A21 FM coil driver
- A11A4 YTO phase detector
- C3
- A11A5 sampler
- C3
- A6 RF module
- A7A5 reference
- A16 scan generator
- A10A5 PLL2 VCO
- A10A1 PLL1 VCO
- A10A6 PLL2 phase detector
- A10A3 PLL1 IF
- A10A7 PLL2 divider
- A10A4 PLL3 up converter
- A10A8 PLL2 discriminator

and for the -5.2V rail:

- A17 positive regulator
- A11 YTO loop
- A7A5 reference
- A15 controller
- A16 scan generator

Matt


New to the group, troubleshooting HP4261A

GeoVE3GZB
 

Hi from Canada?

I have a recently acquired LCR meter, the relatively compact 4261A.

It seems to have a very quirky problem. When left overnight powered off then powered up next day it runs normally for a while. Then the display starts flickering with all manner of random digits, the sound of relays clicking is heard.

Thinking it was simply due for a recap (and one of the PSU caps did show a bulge) I ordered replacement caps from Digi-Key and replaced all electrolytic caps.

The problem seemed to go away for a short time only to return.

+12, -12 and +5 Volt rails show correct DC levels with no ripple.

I¡¯ve tried to chill this device by leaving it outside for a little while to see if temperature is a trigger. It is not.

Help?
geo


Re: HP 8566B repair: -10V rail went down

 

Update:

I plugged in the instrument and left it long enough for the oven to warm
up. I then powered it on. No error messages appeared and the instrument
sweeps fine. I provided a few test signals to the input and they all
look good. 5 GHz, 10 GHz and 15 GHz at 0 dBm all appear as they should.

There's obviously still a problem, but it no longer sounds like my
blunder caused serious damage. I'll keep searching downstream of the -10
and -5.2V rails.

Matt


Re: HP 8566B repair: -10V rail went down

 

I agree that providing an uncurrent limited -10v was a mistake.

Some suggestions:
1) A loose part (screw, nut, washer) that found itself a place shorting the -10v seems likely
2) A cap failure - how long was the 8566 off - long enough for the cap to depolarize.

Thoughts on how to proceed:
Isolate sections of the power distribution on the PCB -pull cards, pull connectors, etc.
If something smoked, it will be either a component on a PCB or the motherboard (There are a few). Or it could be a PCB trace (bad news if it is in a relatively inaccessible place.

Hardest but most through is to remove all cards, test for appropriate voltages and then plug in a selection of cards. I usually start with the control section (CPU, etc), then RF, then M/N, then 20/30. Don't forget the front pannel, but it is easy to isolate (don't remember if -10v is used on FP - think it is not).

Fun times are afoot :-)

Cheers!

Bruce



Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

Hello,

I've got an HP 8566B that was functioning correctly. However, after
moving to a new apartment, it stopped working.

The first thing I did was to check the power rails. Sure enough, the
-10V rail showed 0V across it. I probed different points on the negative
regulator. This seemed to be functioning correctly: the opamp had a
diode forward voltage drop across it's inputs and was driving the output
to about 17V. The voltages at A23Q1 (the darlington that provides
current for this rail) were C=17V, B=1.6V and E=250mV. However, the
voltage across the current sensing resistors was only about 250mV (so
the current through them was about 600mA). I believed this meant A23Q1
wasn't able to source enough current and was therefore the faulty
component.

My next move, in retrospect, I believe was stupid. Thinking this
transistor was at fault, I attempted to supply the -10V externally. The
unit began to smoke and smell burnt and I pulled the power.

Now if I turn on the unit, the -10V rail sometimes comes on and other
times does not. Unfortunately this makes it a bit tricky to diagnose
since I can't just pull assemblies until the supply comes back up.

Thoughts on how to proceed? I'm concerned I did some serious damage
supplying external power.

Thanks
Matt



Re: HP Diode ID Help

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thank you, Greg. I transposed the 3 and 8, so I gave info for -2803 diodes. Similar enough for most cases, probably, but ain't the same. Greatly appreciate the correction!

As to the mismatch criteria, do you happen to have those values? You list the test conditions (thanks!), but not the allowed limits.

--Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 1/17/2022 10:08, Greg Muir via groups.io wrote:

Just some additional information

The individual diodes for this pair are found under part number 5082-2303.
HP crosses that diode directly to a 1N5167.

?

5082-2303 diode specifications:

??????????? Minimum breakdown voltage VBR (V): 20

??????????? Minimum forward voltage VF (mV): 400

??????????? VF = 1V Max at forward current IF (mA): 35

??????????? Maximum reverse leakage current : IR (nA): 500 at VR (V): 15

??????????? Maximum capacitance CT (pF): 1.0

??????????? ???????????

5082-2308 diode pair matching test conditions:

¦¤³Õf at If = 0.75V at 20 mA

¦¤°äo at f = 1.0 MHz

Greg



HP 8566B repair: -10V rail went down

 

Hello,

I've got an HP 8566B that was functioning correctly. However, after
moving to a new apartment, it stopped working.

The first thing I did was to check the power rails. Sure enough, the
-10V rail showed 0V across it. I probed different points on the negative
regulator. This seemed to be functioning correctly: the opamp had a
diode forward voltage drop across it's inputs and was driving the output
to about 17V. The voltages at A23Q1 (the darlington that provides
current for this rail) were C=17V, B=1.6V and E=250mV. However, the
voltage across the current sensing resistors was only about 250mV (so
the current through them was about 600mA). I believed this meant A23Q1
wasn't able to source enough current and was therefore the faulty
component.

My next move, in retrospect, I believe was stupid. Thinking this
transistor was at fault, I attempted to supply the -10V externally. The
unit began to smoke and smell burnt and I pulled the power.

Now if I turn on the unit, the -10V rail sometimes comes on and other
times does not. Unfortunately this makes it a bit tricky to diagnose
since I can't just pull assemblies until the supply comes back up.

Thoughts on how to proceed? I'm concerned I did some serious damage
supplying external power.

Thanks
Matt


Re: What would happen if I let the battery in my HP 54622D oscilloscope run down?

 

On Monday 17 January 2022 01:54:24 pm Glen Slick wrote:
Note that the battery is a coin cell with tabs that is soldered to the
main PCB. Would have been a lot nicer if they had used a battery
holder for the coin cell.
Some years back I was involved in the repair of a lot of electronic musical instruments, and encountered this situation quite often. Worst one was a box that was meant to be hit with a drumstick! Very often it wasn't that the battery had failed but that one of the tabs had broken. I routinely replaced these with a coin cell that went into a holder that was soldered in place plus which had three additional (plastic) support points. Never had an issue with one of those coming back after that.


--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin


Re: What would happen if I let the battery in my HP 54622D oscilloscope run down?

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 10:34 AM Steve via groups.io
<sholland@...> wrote:

I understand that bit. On the HP 3478A DMM replacing the battery without maintaining voltage in the circuit caused loss of calibration and you have an inaccurate meter. If I just remove and replace the battery in the HP 54622D oscilloscope do I also lose calibration or something else important? Is it just keeping user preferences? My approach to replacement will depend on what is lost when the battery is disconnected.
This has come up many times on the eevblog forum. You can search for
threads about it there. For example:


The consensus there seems to be that the dead battery can be replaced
without doing anything special to backup memory contents. After doing
so a user calibration should be performed.

Note that the battery is a coin cell with tabs that is soldered to the
main PCB. Would have been a lot nicer if they had used a battery
holder for the coin cell.

I have a 54621A with a dead battery. I haven't been motivated to
replace the battery in it yet.


Re: HP 8594E - AMPTD CAL : GAIN FAIL FOLLOWED BY "CAL SIGNAL NOT FOUND"

 

Was using the wrong adapter which was also defective.
/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/121755


Re: [SOLVED] HP 8594E - AMPTD CAL : GAIN FAIL FOLLOWED BY "CAL SIGNAL NOT FOUND"

 

Without knowing, I was using a 75 Ohm N to BNC adapter which was ALSO defective.

CAL routine is now successful.


Re: What would happen if I let the battery in my HP 54622D oscilloscope run down?

 

If the battery runs down it will eventually leak and ruin the scope or DMM. I suggest you replace it.
I understand that bit. On the HP 3478A DMM replacing the battery without maintaining voltage in the circuit caused loss of calibration and you have an inaccurate meter. If I just remove and replace the battery in the HP 54622D oscilloscope do I also lose calibration or something else important? Is it just keeping user preferences? My approach to replacement will depend on what is lost when the battery is disconnected.


Re: HP Diode ID Help

 

Just some additional information

The individual diodes for this pair are found under part number 5082-2303.
HP crosses that diode directly to a 1N5167.

?

5082-2303 diode specifications:

??????????? Minimum breakdown voltage VBR (V): 20

??????????? Minimum forward voltage VF (mV): 400

??????????? VF = 1V Max at forward current IF (mA): 35

??????????? Maximum reverse leakage current : IR (nA): 500 at VR (V): 15

??????????? Maximum capacitance CT (pF): 1.0

??????????? ???????????

5082-2308 diode pair matching test conditions:

¦¤³Õf at If = 0.75V at 20 mA

¦¤°äo at f = 1.0 MHz

Greg


Re: HP 8510 C with HP 8511B

 

Because control boards are same, it must be configured by switches?at the A3 board.
You can find proper settings there, at block diagrams (pages 49-51)




Re: HP 8510 C with HP 8511B

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thanks for the info i have the splitter switch coming from an HP8517 , i will open my HP8511 to see the control board.

IW1EPY

Gianni

?

Da: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Per conto di ??????? ?????
Inviato: domenica 16 gennaio 2022 09:11
A: [email protected]
Oggetto: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 8510 C with HP 8511B

?

You can find Test sets schematics at artekmanuals, inside Hewlett Packard 8510A Operating, Service-V5 file, which contains schematics for testsets (but only for "A" versions of 8511-8515).

Also, you can download 8517 service manual from Keysight (without schematics, but with part list and block diagrams)

As I see, control board for 8511 and 8517 is a same, but you need 08513-60011 or 08517-60001 Attenuator|switch driver (not shure, which one).

?

?


Mail priva di virus.


Re: Dead 54720D

 

Mike, could you explain how did you figure out that checksum bytes are at 0x48 and 0x7a ? Do you have any knowledge what thay represent ? Im preparing HW to get flash content from my 75412A and 75421A plugins to make sure that the patterns are correct. If that would be usefull for you, i could also try to get firmware directly from mainframe eeprom/flash, it would be good for me also to have backup because i don't have instalation disk. About serial bit at 0x07 byte, in 54721A it's 0x0c, which represents last two digits of model number - maybe that's the pattern ?. I will verify when i will have 54721 firmware image.??


Thanks
Arek
W poniedzia?ek, 10 stycznia 2022, 09:49:07 UTC, Mike Walters <mike@...> napisa?(-a):


Yeah, it would be helpful to compare the EEPROM image from two units.
Though I was thinking more about the actual firmware that runs on the
mainframe, I could reverse engineer that and figure it out.

I do have a firmware image from my 83480A (aka 54750A) which I expect
to be very similar and I've worked out the EEPROM format/checksums
that it uses:

The first two bytes are a (big-endian) uint16 denoting the total
length of the data.
The first checksum is verified by summing the first 0x7A bytes and
checking that the result is zero, and the checksum byte itself is at
0x48
The second checksum is verified by summing bytes over the whole image
(using the length field), and that checksum byte is at 0x7A.
Both of these schemes validate correctly on the 54712A image posted above.

Another thing to note is that the byte at 0x07 is a sort-of model ID
and it needs to match what the firmware expects for the model string
just after. Without a 54720 firmware image I can't tell what it's
supposed to be, though it could be guessed in maybe 10-20 tries if
someone's keen to do a bit of tedious work? :)

Cheers,
Mike


On Wed, 5 Jan 2022 at 15:44, Arkadiusz Gibes via groups.io
<arkadiusz.gibes=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I was thinking about exactly the same. Do you want to compare to see where the check sume is stored ?
>
> W ?roda, 5 stycznia 2022, 03:26:37 UTC, Mike Walters <mike@...> napisa?(-a):
>
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the 54720 or 54710 firmware disk? If I
> could take a look at that, I can probably figure out how to make a
> 54717a eeprom image for you.
>
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 at 16:55, Arkadiusz Gibes via groups.io
> <arkadiusz.gibes=[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I already found the 54712 eeprom image that you shared. Do you have any possibility, to download same firmware from the other unit ? I would like to compare. I have one 54712 unit, but still don't have programmer.
> >
> > W wtorek, 4 stycznia 2022, 16:46:54 UTC, Ovidiu Popa [Business] <ovidiu.popa@...> napisa?(-a):
> >
> >
> > Sorry, no, I gave up and wrote off the 54720D. I have too many scopes anyway, from 100MHz to 50GHz, not enough incentive to spend more time on this. Meantime, watching for a 54717A, ideally someone owning one could dump the EEPROM. I know if I'd get one, this would be the first thing I'd do, this HP money grabbing calibration abomination has to end.
> >
> > If someone wants to pick up, I can forward the 54712A EEPROM binary.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: HP 8592B: 0hz peak is not @ 0Hz !

 

Hi Joel, were you successful ? I have a very similar issue with a known working 8594E. I reset the default CAL, ran the CAL with -37Hz, but the CAL routine never finishes and stay stuck at "CAL: EMI bandwidth". And when I say stuck, it stays there after 14 hours of running and no updates on the screen, except it goes from -35 to -40Mhz back and forth, as if it was looking for something that never appears.

?

I have started a new topic for my problem, you can reply there if you want to help.

Thank you.


HP 8594E - AMPTD CAL : GAIN FAIL FOLLOWED BY "CAL SIGNAL NOT FOUND"

 

Hi group ! I will start by saying that I really messed up here. I hope I will find help.

I noticed one day that my Analyzer was not reading the right amplitude in the 100Mhz range. It did read the correct amplitude at 300Mhz from the CAL output signal.

I decided to run the AMPTD CAL but it stopped with this error : AMPTD CAL : GAIN FAIL SRQ 110

Without fully reading the manuals, I then tried to run the CAL by centering to -37Hz. The AMPDT CAL then never finishes (after 12 hours of running).

I then restored the default CAL (I do have pictures of the CALS before I reloaded the default factory CALS).

?

Now, I can't run the CAL process without entering -37Hz because I get "CAL SIGNAL NOT FOUND" which is a documented problem during the calibration of the instrument, the workaround being to do the CAL by centering to -37Hz before.

?

Well, since centering to -37Hz is not working and now my CAL OUT at 300Mhz reads -50dbm instead of -20dmb, what can I do to fix this ?

?

If I could get back to the primary issue, which gave me the "AMPDT GAIN FAIL" (which is the DAC gain set to 255 but amplitude reading is not within specs), I could restart from where the real issue was.

Thanks.


For sale HP 3330B and 3320A Generators

 

If anyone is looking for these, I have one of each. Heavy to ship but FEDEX isnt bad. I hate to scrap them out, but the displays in the 3330B are worth more to me than the unit is. I would also consider parting them out.
Jeff Kruth


Re: 8640B Scruffy and does jot tune Frequency

 

This fellow specializes in the 8640 and he rebuilds the frequency range gear assemblies.

I don¡¯t have any connection with him except for buying a gear range assembly.


Re: What would happen if I let the battery in my HP 54622D oscilloscope run down?

 

If the battery runs down it will eventually leak and ruin the scope or DMM. I suggest you replace it.