Hi,
? So I'm hearing that if you transfer a yahoo group with members in the E.U. that
you are "violating the rules related to privacy/spam".?

? 1) Is this really true?

? 2) If it is true - has anyone suffered any legal consequences due to transferring
? ? ? someone's user who lives in the E.U.?

? 3) Has groups.io been contacted by anyone in the E.U. claiming 'damages'?

? I do not find any warnings about this in the transfer process stuff.? I see no
way to find out which members of a yahoo group are in the E.U.? Not even
any way to know for sure where they live at all.

? I'm working with some other guys who want to transfer a large yahoo
group to groups.io (over 10000 members).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim B.

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my group has members from Great Britain, and the EU.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 07:03 am, Jim Betz wrote:

Hi,
? So I'm hearing that if you transfer a yahoo group with members in the E.U.
that
you are "violating the rules related to privacy/spam".?

Jim, where did you read this statement?

My group members are mostly Italians and people from European countries.
I have informed them that we are about to relocate and noone has made any objection, so far.
Yahoo and Groups.io are both free services, so I can't see what sort of damages they may suffer in leaving the former for the latter.
I suppose that those who do not agree with the transfer will simply leave the group.

Marina

All I've heard referred to a UK privacy law effective in April. Maybe that was confused with EU which the UK is leaving.

KEN

"It has always seemed strange to me," said Doc. "The things we admire in
men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling
are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest,
sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are
the traits of success." STEINBECK - CANNERY ROW

Hi,

? I didn't give you enough information to answer me ...

? The group I'm talking about has over 10,000 members.? That means
that simply isn't possible to get 'authorization' from all of the E.U.
members.

? Will we try?? Of course we will.? But in the end we are going to have
to transfer the group without having heard from each and every
member.? So we can't -know- we have their permission.? Can they
opt out themselves?? Yes.? That's not the issue.? The issue is about
transferring an individual person's membership (who lives in the
E.U.) from yahoo groups to groups.io.

? The real question is "does transferring someone who is in the E.U.
actually violate the E.U. regs (laws?) related to privacy?". These
regs/laws, as I understand it, are related to 'spam' and other
undesirable aspects of using the web.

? I can not disclose who told me about this - it was told to me in
confidence.
- Jim B.

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one of the owners of our group is from the UK… and we have several members from the EU

You are probably talking about the new GDPR regulations which will be
coming into effect from the end of May:


Until that time the existing data protection regulations are in force
which are much more relaxed and as far as I am aware there are no
issues.

I am assuming after May Mark (and Yahoo) will have to abide by the GPDR
requirements when storing and transferring data. He has not commented
to date but no doubt is aware of the new regulations.

But you have till the end of May, which is plenty of time to do the
transfers before the regulations come into force.

Dave

On 13 Feb 2018 at 11:33, Jim Betz wrote:

Hi,

? I didn't give you enough information to answer me ...

? The group I'm talking about has over 10,000 members.? That means that
simply isn't possible to get 'authorization' from all of the E.U.
members.

? Will we try?? Of course we will.? But in the end we are going to have
to transfer the group without having heard from each and every member.?
So we can't -know- we have their permission.? Can they opt out
themselves?? Yes.? That's not the issue.? The issue is about
transferring an individual person's membership (who lives in the E.U.)
from yahoo groups to groups.io.

? The real question is "does transferring someone who is in the E.U.
actually violate the E.U. regs (laws?) related to privacy?". These
regs/laws, as I understand it, are related to 'spam' and other
undesirable aspects of using the web.

? I can not disclose who told me about this - it was told to me in
confidence. - Jim B.

As Dave Sergeant said earlier, this is all about the GDPR EU regulations that come into force on 25 May 2018.? As they are from the EU legislation, they are extremely complex and are of the classic "sledgehammer to crack a nut" variety.

Loads of practical guides will appear on the internet as the date approaches, and I guess we are all going to have to read whichever of those we trust and take a view on whether we risk breaking the law for a low level complexity members' group, or we just say "stuff it" and carry on with life using Groups.io as it helps us run our groups so well.

I know where my vote lies!

On 02/13/2018 02:58 PM, Jim Betz wrote:

I am not a lawyer. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

? So I'm hearing that if you transfer a yahoo group with members in the E.U. that
you are "violating the rules related to privacy/spam".?

? 1) Is this really true?

Under the EU Data Privacy Rules, it is theoretically possible for one to
be in violation of the rules.

The big issues are:
* Where are you physically located;
* Where are the Groups.IO servers physically located;
* Where did the transfer from YahooGroups to Groups.IO physically occur?

If the migration is done using the YahooGroups2Groups.IO software/method
Mark developed, you probably will be able to skate by. (Consult a lawyer
in your local EU jurisdiction (^1), to ensure that this is the case.)

? 2) If it is true - has anyone suffered any legal consequences due to transferring someone's user who lives in the E.U.?

Whilst I haven't read anything along those lines, that absence means
absolutely nothing.

In general, the way to avoid liability, is to ask permission:
* If granted, do the action;
* If denied, do not do the action;
* If neither denied nor granted, do not do the action;

I see no way to find out which members of a yahoo group are in the E.U.

Basically, the only reliable way to find out if any members are in the
EU, or in a territory of a country within the EU, is to ask each member,
where they are physically located. Then go through the list of countries
and territories in which EU directives apply.

#####

The bigger legal risk is a copyright violation.
A user claiming that their original content was not licensed for display
on Groups.IO.

Again, you need to talk to a lawyer in your specific legal jurisdiction,
to determine what is appropriate procedures for the migration to talk place.

#####

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.


^1: The EU includes countries and territories in the Atlantic Ocean,
Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean, Caribbean Basin, Africa, North America,
South America, Africa, Asia, Australasia, and of course Europe.
Furthermore, there are countries and territories that incorporate EU
directives, as a matter of policy, even though they are not part of the
EU.

jonathon

On Feb 13, 2018, at 6:38 PM, toki <toki.kantoor@...> wrote:

If the migration is done using the YahooGroups2Groups.IO software/method
Mark developed, you probably will be able to skate by.

I don’t know what the message is that is sent to transferred members is very clear about what is happening and apparently has a link for people to opt out of the transfer. We lost 2-300 people in the transfer but when I asked a sample why, they said they had moved out of the area and just not bothered to unsubscribe. It’s a neighborhood list.

The message was remarkably clear, however, because I received NO questions about it. No one was confused.

Sharon
——
Sharon Villines, Washington DC
“It’s not writing that is so hard; it’s all the thinking it requires."

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 03:52 pm, toki wrote:

Under the EU Data Privacy Rules, it is theoretically possible for one to
be in violation of the rules.

The bigger legal risk is a copyright violation.
A user claiming that their original content was not licensed for display
on Groups.IO.

After reading all this, I am full of doubts and I wonder if I should have known better and relocate just members without their own content (messages).

I am going through the relocating process now, well before May, do you think I could be still sued for copyright violation?

Marina

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 04:26 pm, Sharon Villines wrote:

On Feb 13, 2018, at 6:38 PM, toki <toki.kantoor@...> wrote:

I don’t know what the message is that is sent to transferred members is very
clear about what is happening and apparently has a link for people to opt out
of the transfer. We lost 2-300 people in the transfer

First question: how did you know that 2-300 people opted-out of the transfer? Did you receive a notice?

Second question.
I have chosen to move my group message archive, too.
So I suppose that at some point all YG group messages will show on my new Groups.io group.

My question is: if a member opts-out of the transfer for privacy/copyright/whatever reason, is there a way to delete from Groups.io his/her old YG messages?

Keeping his/her messages in the new group, where they can be viewed by other members, is considered a copyright violation, from what I can understand.

Marina

On 02/14/2018 10:13 AM, Marina wrote:

if I should have known better

What to migrate, and how to migrate it, are issues that list-owners have
discussed since at least 1980. Back then, "best practice" was to send
two or three emails that contained the new address for the list, and how
to subscribe to it, and then unsubscribing everybody from the old
mailing list. If you lost 70% of the subscriber base doing so, well so
be it.

relocate just members without their own content (messages).

How useful will third parties find the list content?

For a software support list, it probably contains some useful material.
For a social chat list, it probably can be forgotten, with minimal loss.

do you think I could be still sued for copyright violation?

What country do you live in?

In the United States, you can be sued for any reason, or no reason at
all. The issue is whether or not the other party has a case that a
lawyer will take on contingency.
In the United Kingdom, solicitors ask about your ability to pay the
barristers retained by the other side.
This difference in who pays, means that petty squabbles in the United
States are far more likely to go to court, than in the United Kingdom.

Europe has "Right to be forgotten" legislation, which mandates all
knowledge of the individual be wiped from the record. This isn't
copyright at play ---- individuals have had stories in which they are
merely incidental by-passers purged from newspaper morgues.

#

I've migrated lists, and included their archives.
I've migrated lists, and excluded their archives.
Five years down the line, the presence or absence of the list archives
makes no difference to the list subscribers.

For historians in the field that the list covers, list archives are
incredibly useful pieces of data.
Even a list as mundane as "The 541 Front Road Home Owners Association
Off-Topic Chat List" can be useful for historians of that neighbourhood.
However, few organisations have the resources to preserve digital artefacts.

Were I to migrate a list today, I would:
* Migrate the list subscribers;
* Back up list archives, and transfer them to an appropriate historical
society, library, or museum;
thereby making the new site look, and feel brand-new.

jonathon

On Feb 14, 2018, at 7:50 AM, toki <toki.kantoor@...> wrote:

Five years down the line, the presence or absence of the list archives
makes no difference to the list subscribers.

For many lists, I think this is probably true, but for organizations, they can be very useful. History is known for that.

I live in a cohousing community, 17 years old. Cohousing is like a friendly condo — it has facilities, a social life, and decision-making history. 2-3 times a year I go to the archives to settle arguments or dispute “statements of fact.” They are very helpful because I can see not only what happened but the whole context. Having digital archives is fabulous — they don’t take up a whole room of paper than is not indexed.

One thing I like about Groups.io is that the archives are much faster to search. On Yahoo, I have to wait so long for pages to load that it was grindingly boring. Old movies didn’t even help. I had to watch something compelling to fill the time.

Dec 1998
...someone told us there's a Dame Judi rose...introduced at the London show last year..I'm going to try Jackson & Perkins to see if I can get it. I'll post the results for any of you who may be gardeners as I am.

May 2000
...little is known about Ltd. Rearsby Roses in the U.S…..appears to be an amateur hybridizer based in Leister (and Dench's private gardener… occasionally offers in-house roses for sale in Britain. "Dame Judi Dench" is another such occasional offering. [a long message with lots of info on the international rose business]

...Dench is the name under which this dark red floribunda is sold. Its international code name (which is permanently attached to this particular plant, even in the event of a name change) is: PEAthunder This rose is unregistered in the United States. It was hybridized in England by Pearce, a small independent floribunda specialist. Judi Dench was released 1997 in England by Rearsby Roses Limited. This rose is currently and exclusively available through this nursery. It is owned by Robert W. Boswijk. They offer new roses by small independent hybridizers Cowlinshaw and Pearce. Rearsby Roses Ltd. does not export to the United States. Contact information for Rearsby Roses Ltd. Rearsby Roses Ltd., Melton Road, Rearsby, Leicester LE7 4YP, England Telephone: 0116 26020 1211…

Another “secret” ist had a series of messages from a monk in Arizona who did all the paper work to import the rose and grow it in isolation in Arizona. He took donations and promised cuttings when the plants were released from isolation. It was 2-3 years later that we got the cuttings and he used the rose to fundraise for his youth program. That part of the history is lost because the list was deleted by the owner with no notice to anyone.

To great fanfare in May of 2017, an apricot shrub rose was introduced in England by a famous rose hybridizer with no mention of the earlier red floribunda developed by Judi's gardener.

While attending the preview of the Royal Horticulture Society’s Chelsea Flower Show this week, Dench went to see the special rose hybrid called the Rosa Dame Judi Dench. Grown in an Albrighton-based nursery, it took Shropshire grower David Austin eight years to perfect the apricot-colored rose.

Not everyone cares about this but this is history preserved in YahooGroups. And it will likely disappear.

Sharon
------
Sharon Villines, Washington, DC
"As long as you have two or fewer, your ducks are always in a row." The Covert Comic

All,

? I don't think you should be worried about posts or files or photos -
if you are then don't transfer ... just create a new group on groups.io
and invite the membership to follow you (the owner/moderator).
And, of course, 'shut down' the old group (all messages are moderated)
for a while (a few months), and then delete the old group.
? They posted them -online- and by doing so gave up any copyrights
to them (all 3) 'completely and forever'.? That stuff is already in the
public domain.

? The only 'issue' that I know of is related to 'moving' their email
ADDRESS to some new location (and, specifically to a place that
"runs on email").
- Jim B.


[Mod note: the above is incorrect: members posting to Yahoo Groups have
given Yahoo a limited license to display their work. They have not given up
ownership or copyright in their work. See Yahoo TOS paragraph 9 and specifically 9.1.]

Marina,

I am going through the relocating process now, well before May, do you
think I could be still sued for copyright violation?

I'm not a lawyer, and I specifically don't know UK or EU law, but I think it is very unlikely.

More likely a copyright claim would be aimed at the web site displaying the material, Groups.io. Under US law there is a safe harbor provision which prevents such claims from being taken to court as long as the web site follows a set procedure for administering the claim.


For the copyright owner that procedure is onerous enough to discourage most people from making the claim unless the work in question has commercial value.

If the copyright owner does file the claim your personal downside risk is that Groups.io removes the claimed content. No lawyers involved unless you decide to counter-claim; then the copyright owner must file suit or go home.

Shal

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I don't believe there are any realistic copyright issues in making these
transfers, nor that the GDPR will affect that area for groups. Technically,
every time you send a reply by email (or via a group web page) quoting all or
part of the original message you are in breach of the sender's copyright. This
has been the case ever since email was invented. Have you been sued for it yet?

The GDPR is primarily about protecting personal data, which roughly means
anything by which a person may be identified. The nature of groups means that
email addresses are distributed to members by email whenever anyone posts a
message, so the data protection needed for that purpose appears not to be a
problem either. It certainly isn't changed by a transfer from Yahoo.

What may be a problem is the exporting of any other personal information (as in
the profile) from a server in the EU to one in USA, and possibly also being
able to show how such information is protected (or why it doesn't need to be).

Another possible problem is the requirement for the platform, or maybe the
groups, to show they have the permission of the member to send them emails.
That clearly is no problem with people joining directly, but may be with
transfers. That's one for the lawyers to sort out.

I've no doubt there may be more that's relevant, but most of this legislation
is aimed at companies like banks, and possibly the likes of Facebook and
Google, which handle large volumes of much more personal and important data. I
have a copy of the full legislation, but it's huge and complex (and the fines
for getting it wrong are also huge). I haven't had time to do more than glance
through it, and I'm not a lawyer. However, I'm sure the copyright issue is not
a serious problem with regard to this particular legislation.

I'm certainly intending to transfer my Yahoo groups over here.

Jim Fisher

--
- My thoughts on freedom (needs updating)
- political snippets, especially economic policy
- misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with which doesn't spy on you

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:15 am, Jim Betz wrote:

gave up any copyrights
to them (all 3) 'completely and forever'.? That stuff is already in the
public domain.

Not true.? Nothing automatically becomes public domain for many years.? In the US, it's originator's life plus 70 years, up to a 120 year maximum.? Anyone can release their copyright to the public domain, but it's not automatic.? IANAL

Duane