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Re: lathe age
The patent tag on the tail stock tells us it is a 1914 or early 1915 built Lot 4 lathe.? So its a model B-4 Lot 4 and there should be a serial number stamped on the very end of the rear bed way tail stock end. Dennis
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021, 03:59:04 PM PST, Gordon Bowley <gordonbowley@...> wrote:
Hi thankyou?for letting me join your group? I have a dalton lathe? with no? model no? ,? on the rear stock there is? a plate with the markings? ?no? 1114123? ? ?1114124? ?on the left side on the right hand side the no is 45857 and 45858? ? ?dates for pattern? 2 nd june 1914? lower?down is a date 20 oct 1914? .? I will send a picture many thanks gordon
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lathe age
Hi thankyou?for letting me join your group? I have a dalton lathe? with no? model no? ,? on the rear stock there is? a plate with the markings? ?no? 1114123? ? ?1114124? ?on the left side on the right hand side the no is 45857 and 45858? ? ?dates for pattern? 2 nd june 1914? lower?down is a date 20 oct 1914? .? I will send a picture many thanks gordon |
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Re: New member
Welcome to the group Bill As to change gears you look to have the full set though I think you should have also a 30 tooth.? The second 24 tooth is usually paired with the 72 at the idler position on the banjo when compounding for fine threads and slow feeds.? As to the tags yes we have seen a number of oddities.? Some with overlays changing the address at the top of the tag.? I think we have one other lathe that has the change like yours but also there are some and I have one that also has a small square tag showing what metric threads could be cut with the change gears provided with the lathe.? Seems Dalton never liked wasting a tag that had a mistake on it.?? You need to add pictures to the picture file so we can all see your lathe and countershaft setup.? Your serial number puts your lathe mid teens production.? Probably 1915 or so.? We don't have a chart showing serial numbers by date.? We do know that each lot number has its own sequential seral number list.? We did not know this till years ago when duplicate seral numbers started showing up but different lot numbers.? What this showed was that Dalton built a lot more lathes than we originally thought.? Seems the Dalton 9 lathe or 9 1/2 inch was the largest number produced at over 14,000 though they are also the least number found.? War production we feel is the reason that the lager lathes were used up in war production and scrapped. Picture is of my Lot 4 the first one I found as it was given to me in 1997 and I did not find another one till 2000 when I met Andy Sargent owner of the Old Iron.com web site. Dennis
On Sunday, February 7, 2021, 06:46:50 AM PST, williamagrissom@... <williamagrissom@...> wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to introduce myself. My name is Billy and ?I am a new Dalton lathe owner. It is a lot 4 ser. no.1066 and is a 30¡± machine. It sits on a a chip pan and regular legs without a cabinet and came with a 3 jaw Chuck, a mystery plate that screws on the nose, a steady rest, the counter drive, and a set of change gears. The change gears are a little different than the ones listed that come with it on here though. There are 14: 24, 24, 36, 40, 44, 46, 48, 52, 54, 56, 60, 66, 72, and the spoked 96. Also the thread chart plate on the gear cover looks to have a factory modification on the 40 through 56 thread spots. Has anyone else encountered this? Thank you?
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIf you can find some Mr Muscle oven cleaner it would make fast work of getting that gearbox sparkling clean. Oh wish I could work on it for you what fun. Also to lubricant. Once you have it sealed up I would use some synthetic oil. Mobil one makes a 50 weight that would work good I think.?On Feb 2, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýOne thing that would help on oil loss would be to use sealed bearings. Yours are probably open that and seat them in the case with a little silicone sealer. Don¡¯t use locktight. I would use silicone to seal the case halves also. I would use an automotive transmission or engine grade of silicone sealer. ?DennisOn Feb 2, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýWow that¡¯s one massive gear set. Looks like about 10 to 1. ?With them helical gears it should run nice and quiet. The set screw holding the pulley is Dalton. That¡¯s the way Dalton countershaft pulleys we¡¯re secured. With that high ratio in the gear box that explains the small input pulley size. Just a bit of info the three step countershaft pulley should run at 250 rpm. Daltons had a top speed from the factory of 480 rpm though we always run them faster. With drip feed oilers on the spindle bearings I have ran them at 1000 rpm for short periods. DennisOn Feb 2, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
Glen Linscheid
That's quite the gear reduction, the gears have very wide faces for only outputting through a 7/8" shaft! My brother and I just made new shafts and installed them in new bearings in a small project, they specified that the "slip/thrust" direction have an angular contact bearing that takes the thrust. ?That box looks like it would run real quiet though. And this is part of a Dalton? On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 9:40 AM D <dillonpapa@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý+1 for what Terry just said. ?Except, if it leaks a sleeve, like this one does, the existing contact surfaces can not be all that well fitted together - e.g. not very ¡°flat¡±. ?It leaks because it isn¡¯t ground or scraped to high level of ¡°flatness¡±. It has a bunch of high points on the machines surfaces that keep the two castings from fitting closely together. ?Also the bearing journals look like they don¡¯t have seals. ?You would have to scrape it in to better ¡®flatness¡¯ to stop it from leaking, without a gasket or sealant. ?In lieu of that, Terry¡¯s thought to use aviation for a gasket might be a very good fix. ?You could also use copper infused automotive head gasket sealant. This works well also. Then maybe see if you could fit a modern day aftermarket bearing seals, somehow... Cool machine you have there! ?Probably, we are all envious. I certainly am... Glenn B. On Feb 2, 2021, at 11:07 AM, flhd1340 via <flhd1340@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
With the way the bearings?sit in the case, the gasket material would need to be a very specific?thickness.? I would put the 2 sides of the case together with no bearings and measure the diameter side to side and up and down.? The difference in size with tell you what thickness of gasket you will need when compressed.? I am thinking it used a paper gasket of the proper thickness. On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 9:04 AM Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
Ryan if an when you take the gear box apart when you seal it up take some pictures would love to see what the inside looks like. Oh did not answer your question about finish.? Japanning was not a very durable finish and in many cases we have seen most of it washed off the lathe.? Its not unusual to not see much of any of the Japanning under paint put on the lathe at a later date.? The gear box shows all the signs of being japanned but little is left.? ?Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 08:11:48 AM PST, Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...> wrote:
Looked at the tag on the gear box again and have second thoughts.? The tag list one HP at 1800 rpm? 3/4 HP at 1200 rpm.? No listing for hp for the other two speeds.? So they are not spindle speeds but rather maximum input rpm for a given hp motor.? Does not make a lot of sense so probably wrong on all this.? The tag may have listed the rpm for a four step pulley that may have originally been on the out put side of the gear box.? Just guessing.? Hmmm a puzzle. Still neat though.? Question Ryan is the gear box output shaft 7/8 of an inch in diameter so the Dalton pulley fits right on or is it smaller and the pulley is bushed to fit? Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 08:02:46 AM PST, Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...> wrote:
Ryan that gear reducer is really neat.? Never seen one like it before.?? Now I find three things a mystery about your lathe.? OK first your patent tag.? It does not have the 1922 patent date on it and all Lot 5 lathes we have seen have the 1922 dated patent on it. Oh the 1922 patent is for the special end door hinge on the Dalton TL lathe and has nothing to do with the Lot 5 lathe Dalton just used the same tag on all Lot number machines.?? Second your thread chart tag.? We have seen the small overlay tag before but usually the small overlay tag has sound beach on it and covers the large tag with NY on it.? Yours is the other way around really odd.?? Third is the tag on the gear reducer as it looks like it was a Dalton made tag that it shows Boston gear on it, it also shows the spindle speeds you get with each belt position and that is something that Boston would not do so here is my take on that.? The gear reducer is a Dalton furnished item.? Dalton either installed the tag or when they ordered it from Boston had Boston put that tag on it. But the gear box is most definitely a Dalton provided item. Cool.? ?Darn you got a Dalton something I don't:-((((((?? I do have a Lot 6 lathe that was purchased in Seattle Washington and we have the sales invoice for it and when the first owner purchased the lathe he also purchased a South Bend silent chain drive to run it.? The lathe? is a 1929 built lathe and SB only built the silent chain drive bench mount drive in 1929 and 1930.? I knew what the drive was though its not listed as a SB on the invoice. Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 06:07:18 AM PST, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
Interesting! What on Earth were they thinking with their naming convention? So, I have a Type B-4, with a serial number that starts with 5, that is a 7 inch lathe? Hah! My change gear cover seems "unfinished" and I'll include a pic. It only says "Dalton. I don't have the Dalton brass plates that attach to the front, but I'll attach pictures of the label plates I do have. Mine also came with a large Boston gear reduction box, but it leaks like a sieve. Before I install it in its new location I was going to see about sealing things up. I ran out of paint trying while giving everything a once-over. So, that's why it's only got a bit of gray on it. The lathe and gearbox had been painted in a bright green and blue at some point. I have never found any traces of black paint on it.? Great tips on the dead centers. I'll see about getting those drilled and threaded at some point. I have to say, it's always exciting to get a new space setup. It's all nice and clean for a few hours... Best, Ryan |
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
Looked at the tag on the gear box again and have second thoughts.? The tag list one HP at 1800 rpm? 3/4 HP at 1200 rpm.? No listing for hp for the other two speeds.? So they are not spindle speeds but rather maximum input rpm for a given hp motor.? Does not make a lot of sense so probably wrong on all this.? The tag may have listed the rpm for a four step pulley that may have originally been on the out put side of the gear box.? Just guessing.? Hmmm a puzzle. Still neat though.? Question Ryan is the gear box output shaft 7/8 of an inch in diameter so the Dalton pulley fits right on or is it smaller and the pulley is bushed to fit? Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 08:02:46 AM PST, Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...> wrote:
Ryan that gear reducer is really neat.? Never seen one like it before.?? Now I find three things a mystery about your lathe.? OK first your patent tag.? It does not have the 1922 patent date on it and all Lot 5 lathes we have seen have the 1922 dated patent on it. Oh the 1922 patent is for the special end door hinge on the Dalton TL lathe and has nothing to do with the Lot 5 lathe Dalton just used the same tag on all Lot number machines.?? Second your thread chart tag.? We have seen the small overlay tag before but usually the small overlay tag has sound beach on it and covers the large tag with NY on it.? Yours is the other way around really odd.?? Third is the tag on the gear reducer as it looks like it was a Dalton made tag that it shows Boston gear on it, it also shows the spindle speeds you get with each belt position and that is something that Boston would not do so here is my take on that.? The gear reducer is a Dalton furnished item.? Dalton either installed the tag or when they ordered it from Boston had Boston put that tag on it. But the gear box is most definitely a Dalton provided item. Cool.? ?Darn you got a Dalton something I don't:-((((((?? I do have a Lot 6 lathe that was purchased in Seattle Washington and we have the sales invoice for it and when the first owner purchased the lathe he also purchased a South Bend silent chain drive to run it.? The lathe? is a 1929 built lathe and SB only built the silent chain drive bench mount drive in 1929 and 1930.? I knew what the drive was though its not listed as a SB on the invoice. Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 06:07:18 AM PST, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
Interesting! What on Earth were they thinking with their naming convention? So, I have a Type B-4, with a serial number that starts with 5, that is a 7 inch lathe? Hah! My change gear cover seems "unfinished" and I'll include a pic. It only says "Dalton. I don't have the Dalton brass plates that attach to the front, but I'll attach pictures of the label plates I do have. Mine also came with a large Boston gear reduction box, but it leaks like a sieve. Before I install it in its new location I was going to see about sealing things up. I ran out of paint trying while giving everything a once-over. So, that's why it's only got a bit of gray on it. The lathe and gearbox had been painted in a bright green and blue at some point. I have never found any traces of black paint on it.? Great tips on the dead centers. I'll see about getting those drilled and threaded at some point. I have to say, it's always exciting to get a new space setup. It's all nice and clean for a few hours... Best, Ryan |
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
Ryan that gear reducer is really neat.? Never seen one like it before.?? Now I find three things a mystery about your lathe.? OK first your patent tag.? It does not have the 1922 patent date on it and all Lot 5 lathes we have seen have the 1922 dated patent on it. Oh the 1922 patent is for the special end door hinge on the Dalton TL lathe and has nothing to do with the Lot 5 lathe Dalton just used the same tag on all Lot number machines.?? Second your thread chart tag.? We have seen the small overlay tag before but usually the small overlay tag has sound beach on it and covers the large tag with NY on it.? Yours is the other way around really odd.?? Third is the tag on the gear reducer as it looks like it was a Dalton made tag that it shows Boston gear on it, it also shows the spindle speeds you get with each belt position and that is something that Boston would not do so here is my take on that.? The gear reducer is a Dalton furnished item.? Dalton either installed the tag or when they ordered it from Boston had Boston put that tag on it. But the gear box is most definitely a Dalton provided item. Cool.? ?Darn you got a Dalton something I don't:-((((((?? I do have a Lot 6 lathe that was purchased in Seattle Washington and we have the sales invoice for it and when the first owner purchased the lathe he also purchased a South Bend silent chain drive to run it.? The lathe? is a 1929 built lathe and SB only built the silent chain drive bench mount drive in 1929 and 1930.? I knew what the drive was though its not listed as a SB on the invoice. Dennis
On Tuesday, February 2, 2021, 06:07:18 AM PST, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
Interesting! What on Earth were they thinking with their naming convention? So, I have a Type B-4, with a serial number that starts with 5, that is a 7 inch lathe? Hah! My change gear cover seems "unfinished" and I'll include a pic. It only says "Dalton. I don't have the Dalton brass plates that attach to the front, but I'll attach pictures of the label plates I do have. Mine also came with a large Boston gear reduction box, but it leaks like a sieve. Before I install it in its new location I was going to see about sealing things up. I ran out of paint trying while giving everything a once-over. So, that's why it's only got a bit of gray on it. The lathe and gearbox had been painted in a bright green and blue at some point. I have never found any traces of black paint on it.? Great tips on the dead centers. I'll see about getting those drilled and threaded at some point. I have to say, it's always exciting to get a new space setup. It's all nice and clean for a few hours... Best, Ryan |
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
Interesting! What on Earth were they thinking with their naming convention? So, I have a Type B-4, with a serial number that starts with 5, that is a 7 inch lathe? Hah! My change gear cover seems "unfinished" and I'll include a pic. It only says "Dalton. I don't have the Dalton brass plates that attach to the front, but I'll attach pictures of the label plates I do have. Mine also came with a large Boston gear reduction box, but it leaks like a sieve. Before I install it in its new location I was going to see about sealing things up. I ran out of paint trying while giving everything a once-over. So, that's why it's only got a bit of gray on it. The lathe and gearbox had been painted in a bright green and blue at some point. I have never found any traces of black paint on it.? Great tips on the dead centers. I'll see about getting those drilled and threaded at some point. I have to say, it's always exciting to get a new space setup. It's all nice and clean for a few hours... Best, Ryan |
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
One thing to remember when looking at the third picture I posted of the bed scraping.? This is the bed from the basically new 1917 Lot 6 that came off Long Island about 15 miles from the factory.? The scraping you see on the bed is .0002 or less deep so you can see that the wear area of this bed has probably less than .0001 of wear.? Not enough to affect the accuracy of the lathe what so ever.
On Monday, February 1, 2021, 06:32:33 PM PST, Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...> wrote:
The small hole on the tail stock next to the spindle locking arm is for white lead.? The lathe came with a small brass knob that has a point that extended down into the small reservoir.? This was used for applying a small amount of white lead on your dead center when you were turning a part between centers.? I have found a number of these lathes with white lead residue in the bottom of the? hole.? White lead is carcinogenic and very hazardous to ones health. As your lathe is a Lot 5 and we think the Lot 5 started around 1921 or 22.? With a serial number? that high I am going out on a limb and say your lathe was built in around 1926.? Each Dalton Lot number carries its own sequential serial number list so your lathe is the 5179th Lot 5 lathe built.? Look at your thread chart on the end door does it give the NY address or the Sound Beach address.? If its Sound beach your lathe for sure was built after 1925 as that was the year Dalton moved into the new plant.? As to your drive belt stay with the one on the lathe in the picture you will find that the leather belt is prone to far more slippage than your Urethane belt is. The problem with the center not ejecting from the tail stock is that its to short.? If you can drill and tap the end of the center (if its not hard as a rock) and add a small screw so the lead screw has something to push against.? I have a number of tail stock tools that I? have added something to aid in ejecting even on my Harding lathe.? A small amount of wear on the bed will? not really bother you .? Not until the wear is extensive will you notice any problems.? As the bed wears in front of the chuck the center height changes slightly.? This will affect the diameter of the part your turning.? Unless your turning a very small part (1/8 and under) you should? not notice any problem.?? To check to see just how much bed wear you have run the saddle all the way to the left or put the tool right up next to the chuck.? Now lift the saddle up and see how much it moves.? Now move the saddle all the way to the tail stock end and do the same thing.? If you have bed wear in front of the chuck you will have vertical play but at the tail stock end were there is no wear you should have little to no play at all.? The difference in clearance between the two test points is how much the bed is worn. Dalton has anti lift shoes under the saddle but be advised that these also wear over time so you may see some movement at the tail stock end also.? When your lathe was new and with the way the factory fit the lathe you would see almost no lift of the saddle at all.? I have two Daltons that for all intent are brand new with no wear and the clearance between the under side of the bed and the anti lift shoes are negligible. One being a Lot 5 like yours and also a Lot 6 lathe I have.
On Monday, February 1, 2021, 03:27:31 PM PST, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
Good evening, Well, I finally decided to move my Dalton into the basement after having problems with rust and freezing fingers trying to use my lathe in my unheated garage. I painted the floor and walls to help reduce moisture in there and I think it will come together nicely a new shop space. While moving my lathe, I came up with a few questions that I thought I'd ask the group about.?
Ryan Manchester, MA |
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Re: A few questions about my Lot 4
The small hole on the tail stock next to the spindle locking arm is for white lead.? The lathe came with a small brass knob that has a point that extended down into the small reservoir.? This was used for applying a small amount of white lead on your dead center when you were turning a part between centers.? I have found a number of these lathes with white lead residue in the bottom of the? hole.? White lead is carcinogenic and very hazardous to ones health. As your lathe is a Lot 5 and we think the Lot 5 started around 1921 or 22.? With a serial number? that high I am going out on a limb and say your lathe was built in around 1926.? Each Dalton Lot number carries its own sequential serial number list so your lathe is the 5179th Lot 5 lathe built.? Look at your thread chart on the end door does it give the NY address or the Sound Beach address.? If its Sound beach your lathe for sure was built after 1925 as that was the year Dalton moved into the new plant.? As to your drive belt stay with the one on the lathe in the picture you will find that the leather belt is prone to far more slippage than your Urethane belt is. The problem with the center not ejecting from the tail stock is that its to short.? If you can drill and tap the end of the center (if its not hard as a rock) and add a small screw so the lead screw has something to push against.? I have a number of tail stock tools that I? have added something to aid in ejecting even on my Harding lathe.? A small amount of wear on the bed will? not really bother you .? Not until the wear is extensive will you notice any problems.? As the bed wears in front of the chuck the center height changes slightly.? This will affect the diameter of the part your turning.? Unless your turning a very small part (1/8 and under) you should? not notice any problem.?? To check to see just how much bed wear you have run the saddle all the way to the left or put the tool right up next to the chuck.? Now lift the saddle up and see how much it moves.? Now move the saddle all the way to the tail stock end and do the same thing.? If you have bed wear in front of the chuck you will have vertical play but at the tail stock end were there is no wear you should have little to no play at all.? The difference in clearance between the two test points is how much the bed is worn. Dalton has anti lift shoes under the saddle but be advised that these also wear over time so you may see some movement at the tail stock end also.? When your lathe was new and with the way the factory fit the lathe you would see almost no lift of the saddle at all.? I have two Daltons that for all intent are brand new with no wear and the clearance between the under side of the bed and the anti lift shoes are negligible. One being a Lot 5 like yours and also a Lot 6 lathe I have.
On Monday, February 1, 2021, 03:27:31 PM PST, Ryan Bardsley <rbardsley@...> wrote:
Good evening, Well, I finally decided to move my Dalton into the basement after having problems with rust and freezing fingers trying to use my lathe in my unheated garage. I painted the floor and walls to help reduce moisture in there and I think it will come together nicely a new shop space. While moving my lathe, I came up with a few questions that I thought I'd ask the group about.?
Ryan Manchester, MA |
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Re: Oldest Dalton has been found.
Hi Ryan,
I am actually down on Long Island not in Worcester( although that is where I want to go to college funnily enough). I appreciate the offer and might reach out with some questions as I start going through this thing in a couple of weeks. I don't really plan on restoring it cosmetically, but I do plan on thoroughly going through it on the mechanical side of things and trying my best to clean up that original finish for a nice patina! Thanks, Colin |
Dennis Turk
glenn brooks
Colin