|
I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC. I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system . I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON 20m AT > 300 ?Watts. Antenna is fed with ladder line and? 12 feet of the line is indoors so I assume this is RFI. I have no? problems on even higher frequencies with Coax Fed Dipole. I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2 COPIES? RUNNING. If I terminate ?ALL with Launcher it terminates? only one? of them (ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of? PC to fix. ? It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the ladder line? feed. I can run WinWarbler with? no problem on other bands and o 20 M into dummy load. ? What does anyone think? Am I? stuck. I guess I could try returning to my Older W10 Machine? that had NONE of this? trouble, even before spending 100 for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than WinWarbler was failing before? installing ?them. ? ? ? ? Outlook LT Gil W0MN Hierro Candente Batir de Repente 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb ? ? -- W0MN EN34rb 44.08226 N 92.51265 W
Hierro candente, batir de repente
HP Laptop
|
If your problem is not uncontrolled common mode RFI, it is direct
RF Exposure. If direct RF Exposure is causing your problems, you
are probably in violation of part 97.13 (c). Have you performed
the calculations required to assure compliance with the regulations
referenced in 97.13(c)?
73,
... Joe, W4TV
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2025-03-04 8:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via groups.io wrote: I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC.
I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system .
I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON 20m
AT > 300 Watts.
Antenna is fed with ladder line and 12 feet of the line is indoors so I
assume this is RFI. I have no problems on even higher frequencies with Coax
Fed Dipole.
I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2 COPIES
RUNNING. If I terminate ALL with Launcher it terminates only one of them
(ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of PC to fix.
It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the ladder
line feed. I can run WinWarbler with no problem on other bands and o 20 M
into dummy load.
What does anyone think? Am I stuck. I guess I could try returning to my
Older W10 Machine that had NONE of this trouble, even before spending 100
for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than WinWarbler was
failing before installing them.
Outlook LT Gil W0MN
Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
|
I have done the required calculations and meet the requirements. Nevertheless I tend to agree that it is the direct exposure you refer to. Come nicer weather I may switch to a different antenna that does not need ladder line. Padhans a rooftop vertical while tis 85 year old can still do it.? ? ? Outlook LT Gil W0MN Hierro Candente Batir de Repente 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb ? ?
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Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 8:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler ? ? If your problem is not uncontrolled common mode RFI, it is direct RF Exposure.? If direct RF Exposure is causing your problems, you are probably in violation of part 97.13 (c).? Have you performed the calculations required to assure compliance with the regulations referenced in 97.13(c)? ? 73, ? ??? ... Joe, W4TV ? On 2025-03-04 8:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via groups.io wrote: > I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC. > > I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system . > > I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON > 20m AT > 300? Watts. > > Antenna is fed with ladder line and? 12 feet of the line is indoors so > I assume this is RFI. I have no? problems on even higher frequencies > with Coax Fed Dipole. > > I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2 > COPIES RUNNING. If I terminate? ALL with Launcher it terminates? only > one? of them (ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of? PC to fix. > >?? > > It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the > ladder line? feed. I can run WinWarbler with? no problem on other > bands and o 20 M into dummy load. > >?? > > What does anyone think? Am I? stuck. I guess I could try returning to > my Older W10 Machine? that had NONE of this? trouble, even before > spending 100 for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than > WinWarbler was failing before? installing? them. > >?? > >?? > >?? > >?? > > Outlook LT Gil W0MN > > Hierro Candente Batir de Repente > > 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb > >?? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- W0MN EN34rb 44.08226 N 92.51265 W
Hierro candente, batir de repente
HP Laptop
|
Even if you go to a rooftop vertical (e.g. R-6000 or similar),
install a high quality common mode choke ("line isolator")
right at the antenna. The commercial antennas do not have
sufficient built-in choking, particularly for "pathological"
(odd multiples of 1/4 wave) lengths of feedline. I needed
a line isolator where my feedline enters the shack (and will
build a better one for the antenna when I next do maintenance).
Depending on the space available and feedline length, you may
want to consider a G5RV or ZS6BKW antenna. With them you can
terminate the ladder line outside the shack with a *high quality*
common mode choke/line isolator and bring coax back to the rig.
In either case, I would recommend K9YC's "Choke Cookbook" for
common mode choke/line isolator designs:
<>
Table 3, on page 8 gives several designs for multi-band, two
toriod chokes. The "160-20" design would be ideal for a
G5RV/ZS6BKW (used on 80-20 or 80-17) and the "30-10" would be
a great add-on choke for a vertical like the R-6000.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2025-03-04 10:37 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via groups.io wrote: I have done the required calculations and meet the requirements. Nevertheless I tend to agree that it is the direct exposure you refer to. Come nicer weather I may switch to a different antenna that does not need ladder line. Padhans a rooftop vertical while tis 85 year old can still do it. ?
Outlook LT Gil W0MN
Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 8:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler
If your problem is not uncontrolled common mode RFI, it is direct RF Exposure. If direct RF Exposure is causing your problems, you are probably in violation of part 97.13 (c). Have you performed the calculations required to assure compliance with the regulations referenced in 97.13(c)?
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2025-03-04 8:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via groups.io wrote:
I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC. I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system . I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON 20m AT > 300 Watts. Antenna is fed with ladder line and 12 feet of the line is indoors so I assume this is RFI. I have no problems on even higher frequencies with Coax Fed Dipole. I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2 COPIES RUNNING. If I terminate ALL with Launcher it terminates only one of them (ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of PC to fix. It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the ladder line feed. I can run WinWarbler with no problem on other bands and o 20 M into dummy load. What does anyone think? Am I stuck. I guess I could try returning to my Older W10 Machine that had NONE of this trouble, even before spending 100 for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than WinWarbler was failing before installing them. Outlook LT Gil W0MN Hierro Candente Batir de Repente 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
|
I agree with Joe about coax chokes and getting the ladderline outside the house.
I am wondering why there are TWO Winwarbler programs running at the same time?
Gerry, WA9GON
On Tue, Mar 4, 2025 at 10:54?AM Joe Subich, W4TV via <lists= [email protected]> wrote:
Even if you go to a rooftop vertical (e.g. R-6000 or similar),
install a high quality common mode choke ("line isolator")
right at the antenna.? The commercial antennas do not have
sufficient built-in choking, particularly for "pathological"
(odd multiples of 1/4 wave) lengths of feedline.? ?I needed
a line isolator where my feedline enters the shack (and will
build a better one for the antenna when I next do maintenance).
Depending on the space available and feedline length, you may
want to consider a G5RV or ZS6BKW antenna.? With them you can
terminate the ladder line outside the shack with a *high quality*
common mode choke/line isolator and bring coax back to the rig.
In either case, I would recommend K9YC's "Choke Cookbook" for
common mode choke/line isolator designs:
? ? <>
Table 3, on page 8 gives several designs for multi-band, two
toriod chokes.? The "160-20" design would be ideal for a
G5RV/ZS6BKW (used on 80-20 or 80-17) and the "30-10" would be
a great add-on choke for a vertical like the R-6000.
73,
? ? ... Joe, W4TV
On 2025-03-04 10:37 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via wrote:
> I have done the required calculations and meet the requirements. Nevertheless I tend to agree that it is the direct exposure you refer to. Come nicer weather I may switch to a different antenna that does not need ladder line. Padhans a rooftop vertical while tis 85 year old can still do it.? ?
>
>? ?
>
> Outlook LT Gil W0MN
>
> Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
>
> 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
>
>? ?
>
>? ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via
> Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 8:58 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler
>
>? ?
>
>? ?
>
> If your problem is not uncontrolled common mode RFI, it is direct RF Exposure.? If direct RF Exposure is causing your problems, you are probably in violation of part 97.13 (c).? Have you performed the calculations required to assure compliance with the regulations referenced in 97.13(c)?
>
>? ?
>
> 73,
>
>? ?
>
>? ? ? ... Joe, W4TV
>
>? ?
>
> On 2025-03-04 8:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via wrote:
>
>> I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC.
>
>>
>
>> I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system .
>
>>
>
>> I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON
>
>> 20m AT > 300? Watts.
>
>>
>
>> Antenna is fed with ladder line and? 12 feet of the line is indoors so
>
>> I assume this is RFI. I have no? problems on even higher frequencies
>
>> with Coax Fed Dipole.
>
>>
>
>> I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2
>
>> COPIES RUNNING. If I terminate? ALL with Launcher it terminates? only
>
>> one? of them (ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of? PC to fix.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the
>
>> ladder line? feed. I can run WinWarbler with? no problem on other
>
>> bands and o 20 M into dummy load.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> What does anyone think? Am I? stuck. I guess I could try returning to
>
>> my Older W10 Machine? that had NONE of this? trouble, even before
>
>> spending 100 for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than
>
>> WinWarbler was failing before? installing? them.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> Outlook LT Gil W0MN
>
>>
>
>> Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
>
>>
>
>> 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
>
>>
>
|
There is only 1 WinWarbler until and unless I transmit on 20 Meters with > 300 W or so of output. With the TS590-SG or any other basic transceiver I have ever used I do not and never have had any RFI of any kind that I could detect. ? ? Outlook LT Gil W0MN Hierro Candente Batir de Repente 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Gerry R via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 11:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler? I agree with Joe about coax chokes and getting the ladderline outside the house. I am wondering why there are TWO Winwarbler programs running at the same time? ? On Tue, Mar 4, 2025 at 10:54?AM Joe Subich, W4TV via <lists=[email protected]> wrote:
Even if you go to a rooftop vertical (e.g. R-6000 or similar),
install a high quality common mode choke ("line isolator")
right at the antenna.? The commercial antennas do not have
sufficient built-in choking, particularly for "pathological"
(odd multiples of 1/4 wave) lengths of feedline.? ?I needed
a line isolator where my feedline enters the shack (and will
build a better one for the antenna when I next do maintenance).
Depending on the space available and feedline length, you may
want to consider a G5RV or ZS6BKW antenna.? With them you can
terminate the ladder line outside the shack with a *high quality*
common mode choke/line isolator and bring coax back to the rig.
In either case, I would recommend K9YC's "Choke Cookbook" for
common mode choke/line isolator designs:
? ? <>
Table 3, on page 8 gives several designs for multi-band, two
toriod chokes.? The "160-20" design would be ideal for a
G5RV/ZS6BKW (used on 80-20 or 80-17) and the "30-10" would be
a great add-on choke for a vertical like the R-6000.
73,
? ? ... Joe, W4TV
On 2025-03-04 10:37 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via wrote:
> I have done the required calculations and meet the requirements. Nevertheless I tend to agree that it is the direct exposure you refer to. Come nicer weather I may switch to a different antenna that does not need ladder line. Padhans a rooftop vertical while tis 85 year old can still do it.? ?
>
>? ?
>
> Outlook LT Gil W0MN
>
> Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
>
> 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
>
>? ?
>
>? ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV via
> Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 8:58 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler
>
>? ?
>
>? ?
>
> If your problem is not uncontrolled common mode RFI, it is direct RF Exposure.? If direct RF Exposure is causing your problems, you are probably in violation of part 97.13 (c).? Have you performed the calculations required to assure compliance with the regulations referenced in 97.13(c)?
>
>? ?
>
> 73,
>
>? ?
>
>? ? ? ... Joe, W4TV
>
>? ?
>
> On 2025-03-04 8:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via wrote:
>
>> I put on toroids on all things that enter the PC.
>
>>
>
>> I have followed many thigs to try to get good ground system .
>
>>
>
>> I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAM BUT WINWARBLER IS USELESS ON
>
>> 20m AT > 300? Watts.
>
>>
>
>> Antenna is fed with ladder line and? 12 feet of the line is indoors so
>
>> I assume this is RFI. I have no? problems on even higher frequencies
>
>> with Coax Fed Dipole.
>
>>
>
>> I do find it strange that ONLY WinWarbler FAILS. I END UP WITH 2
>
>> COPIES RUNNING. If I terminate? ALL with Launcher it terminates? only
>
>> one? of them (ALL OTHER APPS DO END) and forces a Restart of? PC to fix.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> It looks I need a different antenna system that does not require the
>
>> ladder line? feed. I can run WinWarbler with? no problem on other
>
>> bands and o 20 M into dummy load.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> What does anyone think? Am I? stuck. I guess I could try returning to
>
>> my Older W10 Machine? that had NONE of this? trouble, even before
>
>> spending 100 for Toroids. The Toroids did help a lot since more than
>
>> WinWarbler was failing before? installing? them.
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>>? ?
>
>>
>
>> Outlook LT Gil W0MN
>
>>
>
>> Hierro Candente Batir de Repente
>
>>
>
>> 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb
>
>>
>
-- W0MN EN34rb 44.08226 N 92.51265 W
Hierro candente, batir de repente
HP Laptop
|
+ AA6YQ comments below
There is only 1 WinWarbler until and unless I transmit on 20 Meters with > 300 W or so of output. With the TS590-SG or any other basic transceiver I have ever used I do not and never have had any RFI of any kind that I could detect.
+ As I explained the last time you brought this up, Gil, there is no practical way to determine exactly why WinWarbler fails when your RFI exceeds a certain value. Clearly your PC is malfunctioning in that situation - violating the prerequisites for running any DXLab application: a working PC. WinWarbler may not be the only application that fails in that situation; it may be the only application whose failure in that situation is obvious. Consider WinWarbler to be the canary in your coal mine. 73, ? ? ? ? Dave, AA6YQ
|
hello, install a high quality common mode choke ("line isolator")
right at the antenna I've also had heavy RFI problems in the past transmitting with high power, that caused the rotor interface (or maybe the USB port to which it was connected) to regularly crash and DXView to hang until I disconnected the interface cable. I have resolved this problem winding all the USB cables into Amidon FT-240-31 toroids, almost filling the whole circumference. I have also bought a DXEngineering common mode choke that I still have to install. Since I have a remote antenna switch and only one coax that runs down from the roof to my house, the guys at DXEngineering told me that it would be better to install it in the shack, near the radio. What do you think about? Any hint will be appreciated. Thank you. 73 de Salvatore (I4FYV)
|
The *FIRST PLACE* for any common mode choke is at the feedpoint of
the antenna. You want to minimize any RF on the outside of the
feedline so it doesn't couple to any adjacent feedlines/control
cables. The best advice is to start with a choke on every antenna.
*ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THAT* placing a secondary choke (line isolator)
immediately inside the *grounded* entry window helps to clean up
any residual common mode RFI from radiated RF (or coupled from
adjacent feedlines).
Since you have problems specifically with the rotator controller
(probably due to coupling from a parallel coax), I would suggest
winding the rotator cable (from controller to rotator) 10-12 turns
through each of two 2.4" mix 31 ferrite toroids (just like the K9YC
designs). 12 turns will be skewed more toward higher isolation at
the lower end of 40-10 meters while 10 turns will skew more toward
the 15/12/10 meter end of the range but either design maintains a
relatively high choking impedance.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2025-03-04 2:57 PM, Salvatore Besso via groups.io wrote: hello,
> install a high quality common mode choke ("line isolator")
> right at the antenna
I've also had heavy RFI problems in the past transmitting with high power, that caused the rotor interface (or maybe the USB port to which it was connected) to regularly crash and DXView to hang until I disconnected the interface cable. I have resolved this problem winding all the USB cables into Amidon FT-240-31 toroids, almost filling the whole circumference.
I have also bought a DXEngineering common mode choke that I still have to install. Since I have a remote antenna switch and only one coax that runs down from the roof to my house, the guys at DXEngineering told me that it would be better to install it in the shack, near the radio.
What do you think about? Any hint will be appreciated.
Thank you.
73 de
Salvatore (I4FYV)
|
On 3/4/2025 5:44 AM, Gilbert Baron W0MN via groups.io wrote: What does anyone think? Study and implement what's shown in the slides for my tutorial talk on grounding and bonding. You'll be chasing your tail until you do. 73, Jim K9YC
|
On 3/4/2025 8:54 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: In either case, I would recommend K9YC's "Choke Cookbook" for
common mode choke/line isolator designs:
<>
Table 3, on page 8 gives several designs for multi-band, two
toriod chokes.? The "160-20" design would be ideal for a
G5RV/ZS6BKW (used on 80-20 or 80-17) and the "30-10" would be
a great add-on choke for a vertical like the R-6000. My designs are effective ONLY for insertion in MATCHED transmission lines in the range of 50-100 ohms. Any non-tunable device I know of that does anything useful is likely to fry in a poorly matched line. 73, Jim K9YC
|
On 3/4/2025 11:57 AM, Salvatore Besso via groups.io wrote: Amidon FT-240-31 toroids, almost filling the whole circumference. Amidon doesn't make anything, they are a vendor selling stuff they don't know anything about. Fair-Rite is the manufacturer nearly all ferrite cores that are useful to hams, and they are the inventor of #31 ferrite cores around 2003, and the chemical formulation is unique to them. 73, Jim K9YC
|
I totally agree with you. I do not consider DXLab or for that matter , ay other application to be at fault. It is fairly obvious that it is RFI. I am trying what I can to eliminate it. Eventually I will or will have to just give up high? power on some bands. ? I do not think it is the PC itself that is at fault other than it may not be well designed to reject RFI and that I? may not have done all that I can do to eliminate it. I changed some of the toroid arrangements by wrapping more turns ?on the rings today and was able to run 500 W without failure. I am not yet confident that will continue. Wait and see. ? If I run on a dummy load there is no problem that I ca detect. ? I hope it has not been taken that I was blaming any of your applications. I am not. As you mentioned, it is the canary. ? Outlook LT Gil W0MN Hierro Candente Batir de Repente 44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave AA6YQ via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2025 1:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [DXLab] RFI Continues on WinWarbler? There is only 1 WinWarbler until and unless I transmit on 20 Meters with > 300 W or so of output. With the TS590-SG or any other basic transceiver I have ever used I do not and never have had any RFI of any kind that I could detect.
+ As I explained the last time you brought this up, Gil, there is no practical way to determine exactly why WinWarbler fails when your RFI exceeds a certain value. Clearly your PC is malfunctioning in that situation - violating the prerequisites for running any DXLab application: a working PC. WinWarbler may not be the only application that fails in that situation; it may be the only application whose failure in that situation is obvious. Consider WinWarbler to be the canary in your coal mine.
73,
? ? ? ? Dave, AA6YQ
-- W0MN EN34rb 44.08226 N 92.51265 W
Hierro candente, batir de repente
HP Laptop
|
Gilbert Baron W0MN