I did want to say something to Carrie. Both Karen and I have
tried to make friends with you Carrie, but you don't make it easy.

So

I have a request for you. Since this club is supposed to be for
people who have read "The Disappearance of the Universe," (see the
group description) perhaps it would be best if you read the book

all

the way through first and then ask any questions
you have. I noticed you were wondering about things like how could

I

not tell Karen about it all that time, and how could she not know

it

was happening and things like that, but those things are explained

in

the book as you go along. It's not like Arten and Pursah were
appearing to me all the time. Usually there were months in between
the visits. That's one of the reasons the book covers nine years.
Anyway, if you read the whole thing you may find that most of the
questions you ask are answered. After you've read it, then please

ask

any remaining questions you may have. I'll be back in a while. Love
and peace to all, even you guys who I will refer to from now on as
the Newsgroup from Heaven. Love and peace, Gary.

No problem.

I can understand how you'd have a hard time trying to be friends
with me, I feel sort of the same way with believing and trusting you.

Like who knows what else is a lie or in some way,deceiving, that
didn't get found out?

I guess this kind of makes me question things about, and in the
book, as I come to them and think of them. Not getting answered,
getting brushed off and evaded didn't help.

Maybe at some point you can understand why I might find it hard to
automatically believe and trust you, Karen and Patrick, which I guess
you see as making it hard for you to be my friend.

Maybe I have higher standards in the honesty, integrity and
fairness of my "friends".

Even though I hang out on the newsgroup from hell (which is a much
more honest and for real name for it).

Maybe someday I'll write a book that you can read all of to get the
answer to that.

Maybe not, and you can figure it out for yourself.

~ Carrie

Well folks, I was good today and got all my work done, so I can
indulge the extreme pleasure of answering a Classic Gene Post. What
makes it a Classic is his assertion of intellectual superiority,
which he will always go for whole-hog if you give him half a chance.
Case in point:

How you feel about DISAPPEARANCE is admittedly not very

significant

to me, however. As a publisher, I have to pay attention to how

*most*

people respond to the work I do.

That would be fine if it was a romance novel. It would even work if
it was some claptrap about the face on Mars. However, "screw the
intelligentsia" is irresponsible when the subject is salvation,
because now the subject is important.

Hmm... this would imply that because Gene believes the book to be
an "obvious hoax", that makes HIM the Intelligentsia. Those of you
who find the book sound, worthwhile, and inspiring -- the 99.75% of
readers I referred to earlier -- well, you're just not quite up there
in the Smarts Department with Gene. I do hope you'll all write in and
let Gene know how much you appreciate his estimation of your
intelligence. To be dissed by the Intelligentsia is really quite an
honor!

Then there was this:

I think you are acting out your anger and
unforgiveness issues with Jesus, who is, of course, the symbol of

the atonement itself.

AND

Can you live with the ego bargain of selling out Jesus and the
atonement?

Now these are a pretty serious charges! So I took it right to Jesus
Himself, who's been renting a little walk-up over on Addison Street
for about a month now. He read it over and had about the biggest fit
of rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-His-Ass-off I've ever seen. When he
calmed down a little and wiped the tears from His Eyes, Jesus
said, "What does he think I would do if you WERE trying to sell me
out? Smite you? I've been sold out before, you know! Got any pieces
of silver on ya? Oh, this is just TOO funny!"

Well, that just got Him laughing again, then He got the Hiccups, then
He finally settled down and chuckled "Oh, Christ" and I said "Oh
Christ Yourself" and He said, "Thanks! That's the best laugh I've had
all day. Wanna play Putt-Putt Friday?"

I said, "Sure. But You aren't gonna fool around with the timing on
the windmill again when I'm putting, are You?"... and He just winked.

So thanks once again, Gene, for the comic relief. Jesus loves you
(and even me!)... that much I know for sure.

I just got back from a prayer meeting at Peak's Island. It was a
beautiful ferry ride across Portland Harbor to the Island, and five
friends from Massachusetts, including two ACIM workshop leaders and I
went out on a spot overlooking the ocean and meditated and prayed for
Guidance. It was wonderful. What a glorious day. I feel so lucky. The
book has opened up a whole new group of friends for me. I remember a
couple of days ago Stephen (when I was still reading his messages)
said, "You've had a bad run, Gary." Yeah right! All I can say is,
let's hope the second printing of the book has as bad a run as the
first.
I haven't had time to read today's messages yet, and Karen and I
are going to eat dinner and then go out for an ice cream (life is
good.) But when I get back I'll read some messages and maybe answer
some. Thanks for being patient.
I did want to say something to Carrie. Both Karen and I have
tried to make friends with you Carrie, but you don't make it easy. So
I have a request for you. Since this club is supposed to be for
people who have read "The Disappearance of the Universe," (see the
group description) perhaps it would be best if you read the book all
the way through first and then ask any questions
you have. I noticed you were wondering about things like how could I
not tell Karen about it all that time, and how could she not know it
was happening and things like that, but those things are explained in
the book as you go along. It's not like Arten and Pursah were
appearing to me all the time. Usually there were months in between
the visits. That's one of the reasons the book covers nine years.
Anyway, if you read the whole thing you may find that most of the
questions you ask are answered. After you've read it, then please ask
any remaining questions you may have. I'll be back in a while. Love
and peace to all, even you guys who I will refer to from now on as
the Newsgroup from Heaven. Love and peace, Gary.

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Judith A.
Peterson" <jupete@p...> wrote:

Maybe there are those "out there" who are jealous because Arten and

Pursah

appeared to you and not them, Gary. I know I am just a leeetle bit.

I'm not. Thank God I won't have Gary's life review.

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "sa_grippe"
<sa_grippe@y...> wrote:

Hmm... I seem to remember "hoaxer," "liar," and "fraud," just for
starters. "Idiotic" and "stupid", or words to that effect, were in
there somewhere.

Applied to you?

On the other hand, I have never questioned your

integrity, intelligence, education, etc., because I feel no need to
do so.

Or because you know it would be obvious nonsense.

How you feel about DISAPPEARANCE is admittedly not very significant
to me, however. As a publisher, I have to pay attention to how

*most*

people respond to the work I do.

That would be fine if it was a romance novel. It would even work if
it was some claptrap about the face on Mars. However, "screw the
intelligentsia" is irresponsible when the subject is salvation,
because now the subject is important. Utter disregard of and contempt
for demonstrable facts in this situation seems to me analogous to
publishing "Open Heart Surgery for Dummies", without checking the
qualifications of the author or getting an opinion on whether it
contained serious errors. I think you are acting out your anger and
unforgiveness issues with Jesus, who is, of course, the symbol of the
atonement itself.

On the first printing of

DISAPPEARANCE, almost sold out now, the positive/negative votes

seem

to be running about 1995 to 5, or an approval rate of 99.75%

(Please

check my math; it wasn't my strong suit in school.) I can live with
that!

Can you live with the ego bargain of selling out Jesus and the
atonement?

The way I took it, Paul, is that Pursah's last life before her
awakening - will not begin until after Gary's death.

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "ps496"
<ps496@y...> wrote:

OK...BUT "THE MANUSCRIPT FOR A COURSE IN MIRACLES WAS COMPLETED IN
1973." IF PURSAH PRACTICED FOR 41 YEARS AND IT TOOK GARY 9 YEARS

TO

WRITE THE BOOK...IT DOESN'T ADD UP.
REFERENCE PAGE 250 IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE FOR THE
PURSAH QUOTE.
THIS SOUNDS SILLY..SO I NEED SOME CLARIFICATION.
THIS DOESN'T IMPACT MY VIEW OF THE COURSE. I'VE BEEN A STUDENT

FOR

YEARS, SPENDING MUCH TIME IN KEN WAPKNICK LECTURES AND LISTEN TO

HIS

TAPES DAILY.
PERHAPS THIS IS JUST AN EDITORIAL OVERSIGHT.

THANKS,

PAUL

Yes, the moderator does exist for this message board! I came back
from a 2 week vacation and found more messages than I ever expected.
This board is not edited at all. I started it in April and for a
month there were no members at all since the book wasn't released.
This book has an impact on me in helping me understand some of the
ACIM lessons. To me it is a positive impact - i.e. I am more aware
to forgive in more situations and have less attachments to the
physical forms and illusions. My intention of this message board is
for people to discuss spirituality (based on the views presented in
ACIM and Disppearance of the Universe) and not positionality. I have
read many integrous and interesting discussions on this board and
hope to see more forthcoming. To re-state the description of this
group: The topics of discussion should be focused on the teachings
of ACIM and the experiences of living the Course. Thanks and keep
the posts coming!

Nelson

In a message dated 7/17/2003 2:53:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, ps496@... writes:

IF PURSAH PRACTICED FOR 41 YEARS AND IT TOOK GARY 9 YEARS TO
WRITE THE BOOK...IT DOESN'T ADD UP.
REFERENCE PAGE 250 IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE FOR
THE
PURSAH QUOTE.

Amazing how the ego finds stuff. I only deal with the content of the Book not the form or specifics ... I go by how it makes me feel in my spirit.

I guess that is why I am very dependent on Teachers at this time ... I loved the way ACIM made me feel (in my spirit) ... but did not understand a word I was reading.

At least with Gary's book it was listening to an ongoing conversation between three people, so I could follow that.

Fascinating.

"Ideas Leave Not Their Source"

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "mstreet"
<mastreet@t...> wrote:

Carrie wrote:

Let's see, adding to that Martha (who seems a lot different than

she was on other boards we've been on together, maybe she is at

least

being honest about how she feels about me and not pretending?)<<

Hi Carrie:

It is true, that a lot of things have just resurfaced, that I had

tried to ignore when first we met. Like, you accusing others of
having secret boards, only to find out that it was <you> who had had
a secret board. Then your complaining about being ignored by others,
and feeling invalidated by them. Yet you doing the exact same thing,
but that is suppose to be okay.

It hasn't been a total loss. I got one more lesson in "shutting

up" (thanks Martha)<<

I did not tell you to shut up Carrie. I just feel that you make

statements that you feel others should apply, but not yourself.
Like "if a brother asks you do something foolish, do it, because it
doesn't matter." When obviously you do not apply this in your own
life. Personally I think it would be foolish to do this, without
first being absolutely certain, that one is receiving guidance from
the Holy Spirit to do this. And then it would be something that is
not harmful to any one.

I know that my responses to you today, were insensitive and for

that I am sorry. You do not deserve to be treated with disrespect,
and I was disrespectful of you. But I have never told you to shut up.

~ Martha

And I never had a "secret board".

Unless you believe what Katie (who believes ACIM is a cult) says.

That's what she called my egroup SongOfPrayer. Which wasn't
secret and for awhile was listed at the top of my open discussion
board.

It's still listed on the top of Nancy's discussion board, even
though it's been closed for over a year (because of Katie).

But if she (and you) keep stating it as a fact, it will become one
and one more reason to see me as a liar and troublemaker.

Whatever you want me to be.

You didn't directly tell me to shut up, but you pretty much
implied this. And it's what others want.

I am working on it.

I appreciate the honest feedback. Remembering it and not
thinking "today is a new day and it's over and done" (when it really
isn't) is still a problem for me.

~ Carrie

From: "ps496"
...IF PURSAH PRACTICED FOR 41 YEARS AND IT TOOK GARY 9 YEARS TO
WRITE THE BOOK...IT DOESN'T ADD UP. ?
REFERENCE PAGE 250 IN...DISAPPEARANCE...I NEED SOME CLARIFICATION.
THANKS, ?PAUL

Hi Paul,

I'm sure Gary will jump in here, eventually, so you can hear this straight "from the horse's mouth" (no offense to Gary... ?or is it, 'no offense to horses'..? ?;^)

But keep in mind that Pursah mentioned (on the previous page, 249), in reference to her final lifetime, in which she practiced the Course for 41 years: "I won't say exactly when in your future it was"... ?So it seems that her 41 years of practicing have most likely not even started yet, by the time frame we seem to be experiencing; hence, no "addition" problems.

Glad to help out, in a timely manner,

Gene

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OK...BUT "THE MANUSCRIPT FOR A COURSE IN MIRACLES WAS COMPLETED IN
1973." IF PURSAH PRACTICED FOR 41 YEARS AND IT TOOK GARY 9 YEARS TO
WRITE THE BOOK...IT DOESN'T ADD UP.
REFERENCE PAGE 250 IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE FOR THE
PURSAH QUOTE.
THIS SOUNDS SILLY..SO I NEED SOME CLARIFICATION.
THIS DOESN'T IMPACT MY VIEW OF THE COURSE. I'VE BEEN A STUDENT FOR
YEARS, SPENDING MUCH TIME IN KEN WAPKNICK LECTURES AND LISTEN TO HIS
TAPES DAILY.
PERHAPS THIS IS JUST AN EDITORIAL OVERSIGHT.

THANKS,

PAUL

Pathwork Guide Lecture No. 257 (1996 Edition)
Page 4 of 10

But there is an even deeper level of communication which you ignore.
It is still very obscure but once you focus your attention on it, it
will reveal itself as clearly as the levels I have just discussed.
All interactions between human beings ultimately contribute to the
final aim: reconciliation, oneness, brotherhood, love, understanding,
truth. In the final analysis, even the most negative interaction
between individuals serves this purpose.

When two entities--either individual or collective ones--are involved
in a negative interaction, a deeper purpose is being fulfilled, even
if the interaction has a most undesirable result at the moment. The
higher selves of both entities are always at work. The higher self
has not created the negative interaction per se, but it uses what
already exists-- negativity--for the purpose of dissolving it. The
dissolution and transformation of negative material cannot possibly
take place unless there is an outright manifestation. Even if the
entities involved are totally in the dark about the part they
themselves play in this interaction and are still on the level of
self-righteous one-sidedness, they nevertheless serve a higher
purpose. How much more does this happen when entities recognize the
total truth of an interaction that may be hidden from their immediate
view!

So you can see, my friends, that underneath the lower-self exchange,
a higher-self exchange exists simultaneously between the entities in
conflict. This is a very important new thought for you to
contemplate. Just imagine: two people--or groups of people--are at
war on the surface. They hate and accuse each other. They wish each
other the worst and want to harm each other. At the same time, on a
deeper level, these entities agree. They know that what occurs on the
surface serves the common good, serves truth and love, serves their
unity.

On this path, when two of you are at odds with each other and you
work very deeply to come to the truth of the issue, you often
experience a wonderful conciliation in which love unites the same two
individuals who hated and accused each other before. You then
witness what I explained just now. On your earth sphere, in this
dimension, the manifestation of conciliation happens in sequential
time: first the hate, then the search for truth, then love and unity.
On the deeper level of being, there are no such sequences. Truth,
love and unity always exist simultaneously.

Take this new vision into account. It will help you perceive that
every situation, no matter how hopelessly confused and negative it
may appear, simultaneously harbors inner truth, love and unity. Your
understanding of this will accelerate the conciliations on the level
of sequential time, so that enmity/search/truth/love/unity follow
each other in ever quicker succession.

~~~end of excerpt

I decided to share this excerpt. I wasn't sure at first if I should
for the following reasons:

It's not ACIM, and also;

I know that there are others here that are already very much aware of
the deeper level(s)in effect within these types of communications, as
they are, and last;

I knew that finding this today was meant from Spirit to me, as a
reminder to me (personally ~ inner work stuff), about all 'the more'
that's going on re: all the fighting & fussing that happens so much
on boards. (everywhere it seems).

So, I wasn't sure, but then I though ~ oh, what the heck (!) [just
do it!] ... share the dang thing (!) [laughing at myself] It helps
and it's a good reminder.

~shrug~
so ... here it is!
:-)
~love to all~
Deb

It's actually a bit more interesting than just a case of "was time created or made?".
~ Stephen

"Now, we know that time does not exist." (ACIM Urtext, pg. 35)

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Hi Gary,
Thanks for answering this question. (In truth, I partially intended
it to kindly serve as a way to distract your attention away from some
other posts, and you nevertheless responded appropriately by
forgiveness :).)For some reason it took me a while to understand what
Arten and Pursah meant, but now I think I understand that they are
referring to the part (on page 53) that says that human types have
built and destroyed many civilizations on this planet. I am
continuing to re-read your book, and have just started Chapter
3, "The Miracle." Thanks again, Gary, for being available to us all
here. I am glad that your book is selling so well.
Peace,
Elizabeth
"Do not despair, then, because of limitations. It is your function to
escape from them, but not to be without them." (ACIM)










--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "garyrrenard"
<garyrrenard@y...> wrote:

Elizabeth wrote:

(from P.34 of "Disappearance.) "There's no hurry, for time is

hypothetical smoke, and we'll relay some of J's teachings to you on
how to escape it." Does this "it" refer to time and/or the

universe?

Hi Elizabeth. Yes, I believe it does.

And

what would happen if the universe we see with our bodies' eyes was
destroyed? And if all the people we see with our bodies' eyes were
destroyed too? How would we/could we "uncover" our unconscious

guilt?

Elizabeth
"What is forgiveness but a willingness that truth be true?"

If the world and all the people in it were destroyed by a nuclear

war

or a comet hitting the earth, etc. the ego would continue, because
the ego is an illusory mind. It would then make more bodies, human

or

otherwise, seemingly on this planet or elsewhere, to act out,
project, etc. keeping its thought system intact. It don't think it
would be possible to "destroy" the entire universe because in the
illusion, energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. However, the
universe will disappear when everyone has completed their

forgiveness

lessons and, as the Course puts it, "Not one illusion is accorded
faith, and not one spot of darkness still remains to hide the face

of

Christ from anyone." (T669) Love and peace, Gary.

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From: mstreet

To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:28 AM

Subject: Re: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Forgiveness Question

Stephen wrote:

>>And another thing!? What about cats, dogs and duck-billed platypuses?? Do
they have ego's like us or what?? Is it just we humans who are 'projecting'
the Universe or do pigeons and donkeys need to achieve Atonement as well in
order that the "Sonship" will fully awaken from the dream?<<

Hi Stephen:

?

I don't know about cats, ducks, pigeons, and donkeys but dogs definitely have egos. :-)

---

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