Re: BITX40 and Data FT8/JT65 et al.
Hi Zvi, what is PotH ???? If you wired the? audio cables from the USB sound card to the Mic and PotH ports, are you still able to plug a mic in without unplugging the USB sound to use a mic on the rig with SSB no problems ? Thanks! Tom KJ6NA
|
Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
OMG!
Don't mix things with bleach!
Bleach is not an acid but a strong base, containing 3-8% sodium hypochlorite.? Do not mix it with any acid, or pretty much any household chemical!? Bleach can then generate toxic Chlorine gas.? Toxic because the gas combines easily with water/moisture (like inside your lungs) to make hydrochloric acid.? This was actually used as a chemical weapon in WWI.? We want to etch circuit boards, not our lungs!
Stay safe.
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 04/27/2021 10:16 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: OK, but I¡¯m giving you my professional opinion that they¡¯re screwed up.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 22:04, Vince Vielhaber <vev@...> wrote:
?That's what they said. I'm not here to confirm nor deny the validity of what they said.
Vince.
On 04/27/2021 09:57 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: Vince, I think there¡¯s a few technical details missing in that description.
Patients going on the ventilator certainly did not do well. But it may be for reasons that have little to do with the mechanics, and more to host factors, immune response modulation etc.
CPAP machines provide continuous positive airway pressure, that¡¯s the definition. There are some subtleties to how human ventilation works. The discussion is probably beyond the scope of this forum.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 21:49, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote: Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
-- K8ZW
-- K8ZW
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
From the description given, the concern might have been something called ¡°breath stacking¡±; but the solution to this is a smarter person controlling the ventilator settings. There are some comparisons to impedance matching here, that escape most physicians.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 27, 2021, at 22:16, Gordon Gibby via groups.io <docvacuumtubes@...> wrote:
?OK, but I¡¯m giving you my professional opinion that they¡¯re screwed up.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 22:04, Vince Vielhaber <vev@...> wrote:
?That's what they said. I'm not here to confirm nor deny the validity of what they said.
Vince.
On 04/27/2021 09:57 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: Vince, I think there¡¯s a few technical details missing in that description.
Patients going on the ventilator certainly did not do well. But it may be for reasons that have little to do with the mechanics, and more to host factors, immune response modulation etc.
CPAP machines provide continuous positive airway pressure, that¡¯s the definition. There are some subtleties to how human ventilation works. The discussion is probably beyond the scope of this forum.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 21:49, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote: Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
-- K8ZW
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
OK, but I¡¯m giving you my professional opinion that they¡¯re screwed up.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 27, 2021, at 22:04, Vince Vielhaber <vev@...> wrote:
?That's what they said. I'm not here to confirm nor deny the validity of what they said.
Vince.
On 04/27/2021 09:57 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: Vince, I think there¡¯s a few technical details missing in that description.
Patients going on the ventilator certainly did not do well. But it may be for reasons that have little to do with the mechanics, and more to host factors, immune response modulation etc.
CPAP machines provide continuous positive airway pressure, that¡¯s the definition. There are some subtleties to how human ventilation works. The discussion is probably beyond the scope of this forum.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 21:49, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote: Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
-- K8ZW
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
That's what they said. I'm not here to confirm nor deny the validity of what they said.
Vince.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 04/27/2021 09:57 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: Vince, I think there¡¯s a few technical details missing in that description.
Patients going on the ventilator certainly did not do well. But it may be for reasons that have little to do with the mechanics, and more to host factors, immune response modulation etc.
CPAP machines provide continuous positive airway pressure, that¡¯s the definition. There are some subtleties to how human ventilation works. The discussion is probably beyond the scope of this forum.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 21:49, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote:
Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
-- K8ZW
|
Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
Hi Jim,
I'll re=ad that label maybe tomorrow. I have been told since I was a kid is hydrochloric acid.
Next I will read the label on my van to see that it actually contains Chrysler parts <blink>.
Nothing ever stays the same.
73,
Bill? KU8H
bark less - wag more
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/27/21 7:44 PM, Jim Sheldon wrote: Clorox bleach does NOT contain Hydrochloric acid. I suggest you read the ingredients label before making a statement like that.
The main ingredients in regular Clorox bleach are Sodium Hypochlorite and Sodium Hydroxide. The warning label specifically states NOT to mix it with acids or Ammonia containing products as harmful gasses will be produced. I just read the label to make sure!
Jim Sheldon, W0EB
On Apr 27, 2021, at 6:18 PM, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:
?Hi,
Clorox and other brands of chlorine bleach are hydrochloric acid. I am going try that. I have also etched metal in apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
73,
Bill KU8H
bark less - wag more
On 4/27/21 4:22 PM, Mark - N7EKU wrote: Hi,
I switched a long time ago to the hydrogen peroxide method. I use hydrogen peroxide from the drug store combined with HCl, hydrochloric acid. The acid is available at hardware stores, sold as concrete etchant/cleaner.
This method is really nice for a lot of reasons. It doesn't stain things like ferric chloride does. It's a light green colored clear solution, so it's very easy to inspect your etching as it goes. I use a clear glass plastic box and put a strong light underneath so you can see the traces perfectly.
Also, I've never tossed any of the solution yet. You can just keep using it over and over again. If it get's real slow, I just add a pinch more peroxide.
I also use the magazine paper for toner transfer. The paper needs to be what is called "clay coated", which is what gives magazine paper the glossy smooth look. You can buy blank paper like that, but using magazine paper is one of the three R's (re-use!)
73,
Mark
.
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Vince, I think there¡¯s a few technical details missing in ?that description. Patients going on the ventilator certainly did not do well. But it may be for reasons that have little to do with the mechanics, and more to host factors, immune response modulation etc.
CPAP machines provide continuous positive airway pressure, that¡¯s the definition. ?There are some subtleties to how human ventilation works. ?The discussion is probably beyond the scope of this forum. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 27, 2021, at 21:49, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion. On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote:
Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Because the ventilator project was formed from people in this group. Because some consider this important and interesting. And perhaps because the moderator is an active participant in the discussion.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 06:39 PM, Christopher Miller wrote:
Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
|
Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
Hydrogen peroxide is not an accelerant, it¡¯s an oxidizer.
Most acids, including hydro-chloric and acetic (vinegar) will not dissolve copper on their own, they need an oxidizer too. ?Nitric acid will do it by itself but it produces a toxic gas in the process. ?
Ferric chloride is a salt that dissolves the copper and precipitates out iron metal due to a red-ox reaction.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Most people who are doing at-home PCB etching are now using Vinegar for the etchant acid and Hydrogen-Peroxide as an accelerant.? This seems
safer and easier on the environment.? Thin it with water and flush the dilute solution after using it.? Of course you still need to use appropriate safety
precautions.
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Why isn¡¯t this thread locked?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 6:31 PM Vince Vielhaber < vev@...> wrote: Last year when everyone was screaming they need ventilators a number of
doctors and nurses were saying the ventilators were killing people.
They only push the air in and the patient wasn't able to push the air
back out.? They said a C-PAP machine would be better since it sucked the
air out.? These docs and nurses were in NY and supposedly they were
mandated to use the ventilators.
Vince.
On 04/27/2021 06:38 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
> I¡¯m not an ICU doctor, and I¡¯m retired, but watching some of the
> presentations recently have brought out some rather fascinating insights
>
>
> People tend to die when they¡¯re put on the ventilators.? One possible
> reason is that oxygen is really bad in many ways for this disease. It
> allows continued destruction of lung tissue and decreases systems in the
> body that tend to control an out of control immune response
>
> It was observed that people may do better if you use the most modest
> amount of oxygen possible.
>
> They called them happy hypoxic¡¯s.? Blue as all get out but still doing OK
>
> So in retrospect some of the things we have done will eventually turn
> out to be counterproductive
>
> This is a really bad disease for overweight people, a situation that I
> resemble.
>
> Another interesting factor seems to be that Africa is doing
> astonishingly well.? Why ???? ?There¡¯s something important there. Does
> it have something to do with anti-malarial¡®s?
>
> There has been an awful lot of political interference with just giving
> medical care in the United States.? I am astonished at how some people
> behave.
>
> Such is life.? ?I¡¯m also studying the impact of Stalin.? never knew much
> about the guy. Learning a lot now.
>
>
>> On Apr 27, 2021, at 18:09, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Thanks Gordon.? That clarifies a lot.? Next question: Are cheap
>> ventilators
>> still needed...in the US, in India, or elsewhere?
>>
>> What is the next step...if any?
>>
>> Arv
>> _._
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:50 PM Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@...
>> <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
>>
>>? ? ?Well let me see if I can straighten a few things out.
>>
>>? ? ?I¡¯m not completely sure about the website not being updated but I
>>? ? ?think we had to freeze the design and there was some concern about
>>? ? ?some thing about you can¡¯t release stuff outside of your release
>>? ? ?to the FDA?
>>
>>? ? ?We had a outside group advising us on how to present material to
>>? ? ?the FDA. In retrospect, I think we made some wrong turns there.
>>
>>? ? ?I wasn¡¯t really in charge of that aspect but I would have urged
>>? ? ?for much earlier telephone calls to and from the FDA
>>? ? ?representative to straighten out exactly what they wanted.? There
>>? ? ?was a lot of concern expressed by others that any conversations
>>? ? ?with the FDA would just lead to mountains of additional
>>? ? ?documentation required.
>>
>>? ? ?I don¡¯t think the actual events support the conclusion at all.? ?I
>>? ? ?may be wrong, but I think dad and I and others developed features
>>? ? ?that the FDA simply didn¡¯t want and eventually had to be stripped
>>? ? ?out to get it down to the simple thing that the FDA did want, and
>>? ? ?that cost us precious time.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?Acting on a guess as to the FDA¡¯s desires there was a choice to
>>? ? ?try to find a manufacturer which I think hurt us badly.? ?Again
>>? ? ?here I think if we could do it over again we would have spent more
>>? ? ?time just talking to the FDA and less time guessing their requests.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?The major problem with the submission was that we had to jump a
>>? ? ?lot of hurdles merely to find all of the standards that they
>>? ? ?wanted us to certify compliance with. I screamed loud and hard
>>? ? ?that we couldn¡¯t do anything without those standards document¡ª A
>>? ? ?lot of the standards organizations charge a ton of money in order
>>? ? ?to make money for themselves but one of our group was able to
>>? ? ?discover ways to get us just about every standard we needed.
>>
>>? ? ?Oh my heavens above, I spent hours and hours reading these
>>? ? ?standards and answering really simple and stupid questions about
>>? ? ?our certification to those.
>>
>>? ? ?My background included both medicine and engineering, so I was
>>? ? ?able to answer things lickety-split.? others in the team were much
>>? ? ?more cautious, overly so I believe, and moved much more slowly to
>>? ? ?answer the reams of questions that we had to answer in the
>>? ? ?certification questions.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?Again, my observation of the FDA was that they actually were
>>? ? ?bending over backwards, but the delays that our team sometimes
>>? ? ?caused themselves due to overcautiousness, pushed us past the
>>? ? ?initial Histeria and the final submission did not occur until
>>? ? ?people were much less interested.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?It¡¯s just my opinion but had we known that we could talk much more
>>? ? ?freely with the FDA people, I think we would not have done much of
>>? ? ?the exotic development that I personally did and we would have
>>? ? ?submitted a much simpler design six weeks earlier and gotten it
>>? ? ?approved.? ?We were just operating in the dark. None of us had
>>? ? ?ever dealt with the FDA before and people were terrified.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?There was a huge problem that I tried to tackle that we had zero
>>? ? ?legal protection for our volunteer developers and since most of us
>>? ? ?no longer worked for the University of Florida, we were going to
>>? ? ?be left hanging in the wind.? ?I put a several day stop to the
>>? ? ?work until the lawyers gave us some legal protection!? ?Never
>>? ? ?again will I begin a project for a university without demanding
>>? ? ?legal protection from the get-go.? The lawyers at UF actually did
>>? ? ?Hercules an effort to get us protection, but they actually had to
>>? ? ?run background checks on the list of people that I submit it,
>>? ? ?because they were concerned for legal liability if they offer
>>? ? ?protection to a known felons!
>>
>>? ? ?They did all of that in the background and got that back to us
>>? ? ?within I think two or three days. I was very impressed and I think
>>? ? ?in the end those lawyers deserve a lot of appreciation.? ?It was
>>? ? ?our stupidity to begin without having these legal items taken care of.
>>
>>
>>? ? ?We had a wide range of skills working on this project. Some people
>>? ? ?had vast experience covering lots of different areas, and others
>>? ? ?were much more narrow in their expertise. The incredible hysteria
>>? ? ?over the virus caused huge problems for us, with University of
>>? ? ?Florida refusing access and refusing some persons even to be on
>>? ? ?campus to work on this project.? ?Some fairly surreptitiously
>>? ? ?activities took place to try to get this project moved forward.
>>? ? ?The number of people who stood up to help us is just
>>? ? ?extraordinary.? I was on the campus, and even much more so over
>>? ? ?the Internet.
>>
>>? ? ?In the end, I think the FDA created a rather difficult system, but
>>? ? ?had we more experience dealing with them I think we could¡¯ve
>>? ? ?gotten through it six weeks earlier and had a big success.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>? ? ?On Apr 27, 2021, at 15:59, Jack, W8TEE via
>>>? ? ?<> <jjpurdum=[email protected]
>>>? ? ?<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>? ? ??
>>>? ? ?Arv:
>>>
>>>? ? ?Off topic, but one of my grad school buddies took a job in DC at
>>>? ? ?a small agency. A few months into the job, the director of the
>>>? ? ?agency came around and told everyone to let the "In Box" stack up
>>>? ? ?for the next few days. A few days later they had a "surprise
>>>? ? ?audit" by the GOA. The director took the opportunity to plead for
>>>? ? ?more workers because, as they could see by the In Boxes, they
>>>? ? ?were swamped. He got more workers.
>>>
>>>? ? ?When I asked why (remember we were econ students), he said:
>>>? ? ?First, there is zero reward to being efficient. Second, your
>>>? ? ?position on the DC Social Ladder was a function of how many
>>>? ? ?people you managed. The unimportance of efficiency is not unique
>>>? ? ?to Capitalism. My Comparative Systems prof spent two years in
>>>? ? ?Russia and became close friends with a Soviet bureaucrat who ran
>>>? ? ?a major rail line. When he was coming close to the end of the
>>>? ? ?current Five Year Plan, he was extremely short of his metric
>>>? ? ?ton/miles quota. No problem. He loaded up 400 gondola cars with
>>>? ? ?rocks and ran them back and forth between Moscow and Vladivostok
>>>? ? ?until he surpassed his quota. He was rewarded for exceeding his
>>>? ? ?quota.
>>>
>>>? ? ?I think there is a lot of similar crap going on in DC.
>>>
>>>? ? ?Jack, W8TEE
>>>
>>>? ? ?On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 3:46:39 PM EDT, Arv Evans
>>>? ? ?<arvid.evans@... <mailto:arvid.evans@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ?Jack
>>>
>>>? ? ?Maybe Pogo was right? "*We have found the enemy, and he are us!*".
>>>? ? ?After all the FDA as a government entity is just the government
>>>? ? ?employees that we hired to do things in our name!? 8-)? 8-)
>>>
>>>? ? ?Arv
>>>? ? ?_._
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ?On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 1:35 PM Jack, W8TEE via
>>>? ? ?<> <jjpurdum=[email protected]
>>>? ? ?<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Arv:
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?I really don't know. All I know is that things were
>>>? ? ? ? ?progressing rapidly and I know Gordon had one working on his
>>>? ? ? ? ?coffee table! Then everything was turned over to the U of F
>>>? ? ? ? ?team so they could take care of all of the paperwork. After
>>>? ? ? ? ?that, the web site literally died. The last post that I have
>>>? ? ? ? ?saved was back in September. It probably didn't help that the
>>>? ? ? ? ?UF team's leader got frustrated with the rest of us and quit
>>>? ? ? ? ?"to write game code". His absence may have hurt the effort in
>>>? ? ? ? ?FL. Perhaps Gordon knows more...
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Jack, W8TEE
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 3:20:43 PM EDT, Arv Evans
>>>? ? ? ? ?<arvid.evans@... <mailto:arvid.evans@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Jack
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Seemed that things died just after being submitted to the
>>>? ? ? ? ?University
>>>? ? ? ? ?of Florida.? Was this killed by the FDA, or by the University
>>>? ? ? ? ?of Florida?
>>>? ? ? ? ?While it doesn't matter much now, it could be that politics
>>>? ? ? ? ?and funding
>>>? ? ? ? ?in academia contributed to the project's demise.
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Might there be interest in India in taking over the project
>>>? ? ? ? ?(and willingness
>>>? ? ? ? ?at the University of Florida to release the information) so
>>>? ? ? ? ?that they (India)
>>>? ? ? ? ?could build their own ventilators?
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?To comment on an earlier comment...It only seems like the US
>>>? ? ? ? ?is the first
>>>? ? ? ? ?to be ask for help, but that is because our view from the US
>>>? ? ? ? ?makes it
>>>? ? ? ? ?seem that way.? When anyone needs help the US politicians
>>>? ? ? ? ?automatically
>>>? ? ? ? ?give press conferences that make it seem like they are going
>>>? ? ? ? ?to do
>>>? ? ? ? ?something.? But it rarely happens, is too little, too late,
>>>? ? ? ? ?or nothing happens.
>>>? ? ? ? ?If you observe this from a different country the view is
>>>? ? ? ? ?quite different.
>>>? ? ? ? ?Been there, done that.
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?Arv
>>>? ? ? ? ?_._
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jack, W8TEE via
>>>? ? ? ? ?<> <jjpurdum=[email protected]
>>>? ? ? ? ?<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?Bob:
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?I've read back through the posts and did not find anyone
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?who said the FDA prevented other countries from using the
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?ventilator developed here. I am the owner of the
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?Ventilator group site you mentioned and worked with
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?Farhan and Gordon on the ventilator. Things moved along
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?quickly until the design was sent to the U of F medical
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?team who were preparing the documents for FDA. Somewhere
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?in that process, everything just died. I still think
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?glaciers move faster than the FDA on almost everything
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?except budget requests. If other countries want to use
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?the ventilator, seeing a "waiting for FDA approval"
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?whether they need it or not, is still an impediment. With
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?tens of thousands of people dying worldwide at the time,
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?I do not understand why FDA couldn't kick itself in the
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?ass and get things done.
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?--
>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ?Jack, W8TEE
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ? ? ?--
>>>? ? ? ? ?Jack, W8TEE
>>>
>>>
>>>? ? ?--
>>>? ? ?Jack, W8TEE
>>
>
--
? ?K8ZW? ? ?
|
Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Last year when everyone was screaming they need ventilators a number of doctors and nurses were saying the ventilators were killing people. They only push the air in and the patient wasn't able to push the air back out. They said a C-PAP machine would be better since it sucked the air out. These docs and nurses were in NY and supposedly they were mandated to use the ventilators.
Vince.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 04/27/2021 06:38 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote: I¡¯m not an ICU doctor, and I¡¯m retired, but watching some of the presentations recently have brought out some rather fascinating insights
People tend to die when they¡¯re put on the ventilators. One possible reason is that oxygen is really bad in many ways for this disease. It allows continued destruction of lung tissue and decreases systems in the body that tend to control an out of control immune response
It was observed that people may do better if you use the most modest amount of oxygen possible.
They called them happy hypoxic¡¯s. Blue as all get out but still doing OK
So in retrospect some of the things we have done will eventually turn out to be counterproductive
This is a really bad disease for overweight people, a situation that I resemble.
Another interesting factor seems to be that Africa is doing astonishingly well. Why ??? There¡¯s something important there. Does it have something to do with anti-malarial¡®s?
There has been an awful lot of political interference with just giving medical care in the United States. I am astonished at how some people behave.
Such is life. I¡¯m also studying the impact of Stalin. never knew much about the guy. Learning a lot now.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 18:09, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
? Thanks Gordon. That clarifies a lot. Next question: Are cheap ventilators still needed...in the US, in India, or elsewhere?
What is the next step...if any?
Arv _._
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:50 PM Gordon Gibby <docvacuumtubes@... <mailto:docvacuumtubes@...>> wrote:
Well let me see if I can straighten a few things out.
I¡¯m not completely sure about the website not being updated but I think we had to freeze the design and there was some concern about some thing about you can¡¯t release stuff outside of your release to the FDA?
We had a outside group advising us on how to present material to the FDA. In retrospect, I think we made some wrong turns there.
I wasn¡¯t really in charge of that aspect but I would have urged for much earlier telephone calls to and from the FDA representative to straighten out exactly what they wanted. There was a lot of concern expressed by others that any conversations with the FDA would just lead to mountains of additional documentation required.
I don¡¯t think the actual events support the conclusion at all. I may be wrong, but I think dad and I and others developed features that the FDA simply didn¡¯t want and eventually had to be stripped out to get it down to the simple thing that the FDA did want, and that cost us precious time.
Acting on a guess as to the FDA¡¯s desires there was a choice to try to find a manufacturer which I think hurt us badly. Again here I think if we could do it over again we would have spent more time just talking to the FDA and less time guessing their requests.
The major problem with the submission was that we had to jump a lot of hurdles merely to find all of the standards that they wanted us to certify compliance with. I screamed loud and hard that we couldn¡¯t do anything without those standards document¡ª A lot of the standards organizations charge a ton of money in order to make money for themselves but one of our group was able to discover ways to get us just about every standard we needed.
Oh my heavens above, I spent hours and hours reading these standards and answering really simple and stupid questions about our certification to those.
My background included both medicine and engineering, so I was able to answer things lickety-split. others in the team were much more cautious, overly so I believe, and moved much more slowly to answer the reams of questions that we had to answer in the certification questions.
Again, my observation of the FDA was that they actually were bending over backwards, but the delays that our team sometimes caused themselves due to overcautiousness, pushed us past the initial Histeria and the final submission did not occur until people were much less interested.
It¡¯s just my opinion but had we known that we could talk much more freely with the FDA people, I think we would not have done much of the exotic development that I personally did and we would have submitted a much simpler design six weeks earlier and gotten it approved. We were just operating in the dark. None of us had ever dealt with the FDA before and people were terrified.
There was a huge problem that I tried to tackle that we had zero legal protection for our volunteer developers and since most of us no longer worked for the University of Florida, we were going to be left hanging in the wind. I put a several day stop to the work until the lawyers gave us some legal protection! Never again will I begin a project for a university without demanding legal protection from the get-go. The lawyers at UF actually did Hercules an effort to get us protection, but they actually had to run background checks on the list of people that I submit it, because they were concerned for legal liability if they offer protection to a known felons!
They did all of that in the background and got that back to us within I think two or three days. I was very impressed and I think in the end those lawyers deserve a lot of appreciation. It was our stupidity to begin without having these legal items taken care of.
We had a wide range of skills working on this project. Some people had vast experience covering lots of different areas, and others were much more narrow in their expertise. The incredible hysteria over the virus caused huge problems for us, with University of Florida refusing access and refusing some persons even to be on campus to work on this project. Some fairly surreptitiously activities took place to try to get this project moved forward. The number of people who stood up to help us is just extraordinary. I was on the campus, and even much more so over the Internet.
In the end, I think the FDA created a rather difficult system, but had we more experience dealing with them I think we could¡¯ve gotten through it six weeks earlier and had a big success.
On Apr 27, 2021, at 15:59, Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <> <jjpurdum@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
? Arv:
Off topic, but one of my grad school buddies took a job in DC at a small agency. A few months into the job, the director of the agency came around and told everyone to let the "In Box" stack up for the next few days. A few days later they had a "surprise audit" by the GOA. The director took the opportunity to plead for more workers because, as they could see by the In Boxes, they were swamped. He got more workers.
When I asked why (remember we were econ students), he said: First, there is zero reward to being efficient. Second, your position on the DC Social Ladder was a function of how many people you managed. The unimportance of efficiency is not unique to Capitalism. My Comparative Systems prof spent two years in Russia and became close friends with a Soviet bureaucrat who ran a major rail line. When he was coming close to the end of the current Five Year Plan, he was extremely short of his metric ton/miles quota. No problem. He loaded up 400 gondola cars with rocks and ran them back and forth between Moscow and Vladivostok until he surpassed his quota. He was rewarded for exceeding his quota.
I think there is a lot of similar crap going on in DC.
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 3:46:39 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@... <mailto:arvid.evans@...>> wrote:
Jack
Maybe Pogo was right "*We have found the enemy, and he are us!*". After all the FDA as a government entity is just the government employees that we hired to do things in our name! 8-) 8-)
Arv _._
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 1:35 PM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <> <jjpurdum@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Arv:
I really don't know. All I know is that things were progressing rapidly and I know Gordon had one working on his coffee table! Then everything was turned over to the U of F team so they could take care of all of the paperwork. After that, the web site literally died. The last post that I have saved was back in September. It probably didn't help that the UF team's leader got frustrated with the rest of us and quit "to write game code". His absence may have hurt the effort in FL. Perhaps Gordon knows more...
Jack, W8TEE
On Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 3:20:43 PM EDT, Arv Evans <arvid.evans@... <mailto:arvid.evans@...>> wrote:
Jack
Seemed that things died just after being submitted to the University of Florida. Was this killed by the FDA, or by the University of Florida? While it doesn't matter much now, it could be that politics and funding in academia contributed to the project's demise.
Might there be interest in India in taking over the project (and willingness at the University of Florida to release the information) so that they (India) could build their own ventilators?
To comment on an earlier comment...It only seems like the US is the first to be ask for help, but that is because our view from the US makes it seem that way. When anyone needs help the US politicians automatically give press conferences that make it seem like they are going to do something. But it rarely happens, is too little, too late, or nothing happens. If you observe this from a different country the view is quite different. Been there, done that.
Arv _._
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jack, W8TEE via groups.io <> <jjpurdum@... <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Bob:
I've read back through the posts and did not find anyone who said the FDA prevented other countries from using the ventilator developed here. I am the owner of the Ventilator group site you mentioned and worked with Farhan and Gordon on the ventilator. Things moved along quickly until the design was sent to the U of F medical team who were preparing the documents for FDA. Somewhere in that process, everything just died. I still think glaciers move faster than the FDA on almost everything except budget requests. If other countries want to use the ventilator, seeing a "waiting for FDA approval" whether they need it or not, is still an impediment. With tens of thousands of people dying worldwide at the time, I do not understand why FDA couldn't kick itself in the ass and get things done. -- Jack, W8TEE
-- Jack, W8TEE
-- Jack, W8TEE
-- K8ZW
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Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Could be. I don¡¯t know. ?
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On Apr 27, 2021, at 19:27, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io <jgaffke@...> wrote:
?Perhaps a warm climate, life lived outdoors or in extremely well ventilated buildings? Studies first started showing up about a year ago showing that Covid19 transmission was primarily airborne, and seldom transmitted out-of-doors with no physical contact.. Hence the somewhat delayed "no masks needed outdoors" mandate from the CDC. On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 03:38 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
Another interesting factor seems to be that Africa is doing astonishingly well. ?Why ???
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Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
I used to work in the design division of an electromedical company in the early 70's. We had 4 engineers and 3 techs. I was a tech. One of my jobs there was to layout and print prototype pcb boards from the schematics. Most were 2 sided. I would lay the board out on a light table at 4x the finished size. Take them to a guy who would print them at .25 the original size. Then use the negatives to print on sensitized pcbs. Develop them and etch them with ferric chloride. Once done with that I would drill the boards and mount the components. Once done we would test them and occasionally make a change. Not once did I ever see anyone use a pcb board in the way that I make them now. -- 73 Dave
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Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
Clorox bleach does NOT contain Hydrochloric acid. I suggest you read the ingredients label before making a statement like that.
The main ingredients in regular Clorox bleach are Sodium Hypochlorite and Sodium Hydroxide. The warning label specifically states NOT to mix it with acids or Ammonia containing products as harmful gasses will be produced. I just read the label to make sure!
Jim Sheldon, W0EB
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On Apr 27, 2021, at 6:18 PM, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell@...> wrote:
?Hi,
Clorox and other brands of chlorine bleach are hydrochloric acid. I am going try that. I have also etched metal in apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
73,
Bill KU8H
bark less - wag more
On 4/27/21 4:22 PM, Mark - N7EKU wrote: Hi,
I switched a long time ago to the hydrogen peroxide method. I use hydrogen peroxide from the drug store combined with HCl, hydrochloric acid. The acid is available at hardware stores, sold as concrete etchant/cleaner.
This method is really nice for a lot of reasons. It doesn't stain things like ferric chloride does. It's a light green colored clear solution, so it's very easy to inspect your etching as it goes. I use a clear glass plastic box and put a strong light underneath so you can see the traces perfectly.
Also, I've never tossed any of the solution yet. You can just keep using it over and over again. If it get's real slow, I just add a pinch more peroxide.
I also use the magazine paper for toner transfer. The paper needs to be what is called "clay coated", which is what gives magazine paper the glossy smooth look. You can buy blank paper like that, but using magazine paper is one of the three R's (re-use!)
73,
Mark
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Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
Perhaps a warm climate, life lived outdoors or in extremely well ventilated buildings? Studies first started showing up about a year ago showing that Covid19 transmission was primarily airborne, and seldom transmitted out-of-doors with no physical contact.. Hence the somewhat delayed "no masks needed outdoors" mandate from the CDC.
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Show quoted text
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 03:38 PM, Gordon Gibby wrote:
Another interesting factor seems to be that Africa is doing astonishingly well. ?Why ???
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Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
Hi,
Clorox and other brands of chlorine bleach are hydrochloric acid. I am going try that. I have also etched metal in apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
73,
Bill KU8H
bark less - wag more
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/27/21 4:22 PM, Mark - N7EKU wrote: Hi,
I switched a long time ago to the hydrogen peroxide method.? I use hydrogen peroxide from the drug store combined with HCl, hydrochloric acid.? The acid is available at hardware stores, sold as concrete etchant/cleaner.
This method is really nice for a lot of reasons.? It doesn't stain things like ferric chloride does.? It's a light green colored clear solution, so it's very easy to inspect your etching as it goes.? I use a clear glass plastic box and put a strong light underneath so you can see the traces perfectly.
Also, I've never tossed any of the solution yet.? You can just keep using it over and over again.? If it get's real slow, I just add a pinch more peroxide.
I also use the magazine paper for toner transfer.? The paper needs to be what is called "clay coated", which is what gives magazine paper the glossy smooth look.? You can buy blank paper like that, but using magazine paper is one of the three R's (re-use!)
73,
Mark
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Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 05:35 PM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
Makes me wonder how an oxygen concentrator works. And what other issues might have relatively easy solutions.
I wonder how feasible this is? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/26/indian-makers-respond-to-the-covid-19-pandemic-by-producing-oxygen-concentrators/ ? --
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Re: Homemade Circuit Boards
Muriatic acid is HCL, hydrochloric acid so you are good to go. Bill VK7MX
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Re: Best wishes to our friends in India
This came across my monitor this morning.? It's work-safe.
<>
Somebody try it and see if it works -- it may be coded to my IEEE membership and email addy, hence not accessible by anybody else.? If that's the case, I'll trim the link down and then send IEEE a nastygram.? I give them way too much money for them to be jacking me up. If it's not accessible at all I'll save the page to PDF and upload it here, the give IEEE a red-a$$ on reddit.
A summary of the article -- it appears that Iran has developed a non-FDA regulated ventilator that sounds a heck of a lot like what Ashhar et al had been working on.? Naturally they have no recourse for IP theft, but I am totally sure that the USA media on all sides of the political spectrum will take Iran to task if they stole ideas or IP.
FWIW I watched the ventilator group almost from the start, and quit when the project''s paperwork was handed off to UF and to the FDA.
73 and best wishes to all suffering in India Jim N6OTQ
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