Re: Harmonics and Relay Replacement
I had an old Panasonic DS2E relay. Here are top and side exploded photos. Sorry for lack of clarity
The contacts can be seen mounted on either side of the relay. The armature moves sideways pulling one and pushing another contact.
regards
sarma
?vu3zmv
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At 12/10/2018, you wrote:
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Re: Recommended mods for spurs and harmonics
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 09:06 AM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
We do have insufficient local oscillator drive from CLK1 into the mixer,
Has anyone tried changing the attenuator from 6db to a 3db one? 73 NIck VK4PP
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Mike? AI4NS
What is this "2-factor authentication with Google" that you mentioned?? I just looked at your
member profile on the BITX20 site and see nothing like that on Groups.io.? You are set for
All Messages, and Full Featured Digest.?
Arv? K7HKL _._
I was using 2 factor authentication with Google. It is still set for my account, and I need to get it turned off. How do I contact a group admin or someone that can help fix my account?
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I was using 2 factor authentication with Google. It is still set for my account, and I need to get it turned off. How do I contact a group admin or someone that can help fix my account?
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Recommended mods for spurs and harmonics
There were a bunch of spurs coming out of that first mixer into the 30mhz LPF on transmit that were below 30mhz. One in particular (first flagged by Allison) was at? (45mhz - Carrier), so transmitting at 21mhz we got a spur at 45-21=24mhz. Some of the spurs were be due to unwanted coupling from the power amp back into that 45mhz IF. This issue is possibly addressed by Raj's hack at L5 and L7:?? ? ?? /g/BITX20/message/60453Raj previously had some success with adding a second 45mhz crystal filter, but it's looking like the L5,L7 hack may be a better solution. ? ?? /g/BITX20/topic/25208658The four relay switched transmit LPF's do not attenuate harmonics as well as they should, as first pointed out by Warren. Many have addressed this with major hacks to the uBitx board, or by adding external filters in line with the antenna.? But it is now looking like this can be adequately addressed (except 40m) by simply replacing the relays with the Axicom, which is more suitable for switching RF: ? ?? /g/BITX20/message/60368With luck, 40 meters can also be cleaned up with a minor mod to the board traces while swapping out the relays. Kees is looking at various ways of improving the performance of the existing relays, if it works this may be easier and cheaper than replacing the relays: ? ?? /g/BITX20/topic/27240335We do have insufficient local oscillator drive from CLK1 into the mixer, and the related issue of too much signal coming in from the 45mhz IF. That will contribute intermodulation distortion. Also more carrier leakage than we should have. However these issues are close in to the transmitted signal, within the bandwidth used by a typical AM signal, and generally not a problem with regard to regulations. Yet another issue is inadequate power out on the high bands, such as 10 meters. Addressing this is perhaps best left for v5 of the uBitx, or perhaps grafting G0UPL's new QSX power amp to the uBitx:?? /g/BITX20/topic/27121196We need to have a clean signal before we worry about making it stronger. Some are using high power external linear amps with the uBitx. Not a good idea unless you first clean up the spurs, harmonics, IMD, and carrier leakage described here.? Between Raj's L5,L7 fix and cleaning up the relays around the transmit LPF's, the uBitx may be good enough to meet regs across all bands and all modes. Both of these fixes are starting to look cheap and easy enough to do. But unless you are the adventurous sort, I suggest holding back a few weeks till further reports are in. Jerry, KE7ER
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 02:11 PM, ajparent1/KB1GMX wrote:
Did You make a measurement on the mirror reception which should be attenuated by the input lpf? Or is it another stone to be lifted?
A low pass filter at the input of Q90 is insufficient to remove anything below its cut of of about 33.5mhz.
This is not new new here, I just haven't mentioned it in the last 4 weeks, prior to that it was a near daily topic
so its gone to the collective forgetfulness.
Problem 11.996(approx) carrier osc leakage.? Board level issue with OSC0 propagation to other parts of the board.
Problem? mirror image of output and IF, spectral folding from mixing products and sampling theory.? Side effect of?
insufficient filtering results in spurs in the 16-17mhz range when tuned to 10M SSB.? The only way to filter that is
bandpass at the output of the mixer.
>>>>in the QRP-labs PA : the output stage fo the driver is using a center tapped transformer. Why not choose an extra bifilar wound choke as correctly done int the PA stage?? Did You try this configuration? <<<
Ask Hans but the design for that stage is low power so current effects in the transformer are minimal at that
power level.? ? In my work I'e done both and for that stage and power level its overkill.
?
Allison
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OK, 3 more plots.? Mouser just delivered. The first one is with 680uH and the second is with 1mH. That's about 8dB better at 25MHz and below when compared to a plain uBITX "16 pin" relay. The third plot shows a plain "16 pin" HFD-27 relay for comparison with no inductance added to the coil leads. 73 Kees K5BCQ   
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Re: QSX 10W HF Linear PA kit
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 01:05 PM, Henning Weddig wrote:
Did You make a measurement on the mirror reception which should be attenuated by the input lpf? Or is it another stone to be lifted?
A low pass filter at the input of Q90 is insufficient to remove anything below its cut of of about 33.5mhz.
This is not new new here, I just haven't mentioned it in the last 4 weeks, prior to that it was a near daily topic
so its gone to the collective forgetfulness.
Problem 11.996(approx) carrier osc leakage.? Board level issue with OSC0 propagation to other parts of the board.
Problem? mirror image of output and IF, spectral folding from mixing products and sampling theory.? Side effect of?
insufficient filtering results in spurs in the 16-17mhz range when tuned to 10M SSB.? The only way to filter that is
bandpass at the output of the mixer.
>>>>in the QRP-labs PA : the output stage fo the driver is using a center tapped transformer. Why not choose an extra bifilar wound choke as correctly done int the PA stage?? Did You try this configuration? <<<
Ask Hans but the design for that stage is low power so current effects in the transformer are minimal at that
power level.? ? In my work I'e done both and for that stage and power level its overkill.
?
Allison
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Re: Harmonics and Relay Replacement
Thanks Jim that helps. ?I may have been a bit optimistic about the test lead situation here.73 Scott
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On Oct 11, 2018, at 12:02 PM, Jim Sheldon < w0eb@...> wrote: Scott, Use the shortest leads possible, measure the inductance as quickly as you can after "Zeroing" your meter with the leads shorted. ?That's the way I do it. ?The inductance of the leads is a factor as well as the capacitance of your hand & fingers. ?Zero it, connect the inductor and get your hands back. ?Write down the reading as quick as you can. ?I also turn the unit on and leave it on for at least 10-15 minutes before doing any measurements with it. ?This applies to any LC meter, no matter the brand or the circuit it uses.
About the best advice I can give, ?maybe Raj does it differently and he will chime in also.
Jim - W0EB
------ Original Message ------
From: "Scott McDonald via Groups.Io" < ka9p@...> Sent: 10/11/2018 10:46:44 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
Hi Jim, or Raj, or ¡.
?
I have trouble with reproducibility on lower numbers with my recently purchased LC200.
?
Butt when I see people that know what they are doing having good results, I'm inclined to ask whether there is anything special, or for that matter, just how are you measuring the lower value inductances, figuring based on past experience that I may not have yet acquired the "knack."
?
Thanks, Scott ka9p
?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Sheldon < w0eb@...>
To: BITX20 < [email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 11, 2018 9:37 am
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
Hi Raj,
Funny, I have a DE-5000, LC-100A (real cheap one from eBay) and the AADE
and they all agree within less than 1 percent. You might have a bad
crystal oscillator on the uP in your AADE? Or maybe I just got lucky as
I was given my AADE by a friend, several years ago. Not sure where he
got it.
The biggest surprise is how accurate the very inexpensive LC-100A has
been. I think I paid $9.95 USD with free shipping for it.
Jim, W0EB
------ Original Message ------
From: "Raj vu2zap" < rajendrakumargg@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: 10/11/2018 3:45:22 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Harmonics and Relay Replacement
>I don't trust my AADE meter below 1uH. I use a meter called DE 5000, it
>read commercial
>sub uH inductors very accurately. The AADE meter was way off.
>
>The DE meter can be set for 1,10,100 KHz measurement frequency. At 100K
>the meter
>reads 1nH
>
>Raj
>
>
>You will need the accesories TL-21 and 22 ..
>
>At 11/10/2018, you wrote:
>>Kees,
>>In measuring a Virtual relay and an Axicom relay that I have here,
>>both show approximately 20nH.
>
>
>
>
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Emissions allowed In Band Segments
Wavelength band | Frequencies | Emission types authorized | Standards see ¡ì 97.307(f) , paragraph: | LF: | | | | 2200 m | Entire band | RTTY, data | (3). | 2200 m | Entire band | Phone, image | (1), (2). | MF: | | | | 160 m | Entire band | RTTY, data | (3). | 160 m | Entire band | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 630 m | Entire band | RTTY, data | (3). | 630 m | Entire band | Phone, image | (1), (2). | HF: | | | | 80 m | Entire band | RTTY, data | (3), (9). | 75 m | Entire band | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 60 m | 5.332, 5.348, 5.3585, 5.373 and 5.405 MHz | Phone, RTTY, data | (14). | 40 m | 7.000-7.100 MHz | RTTY, data | (3), (9) | 40 m | 7.075-7.100 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2), (9), (11) | 40 m | 7.100-7.125 MHz | RTTY, data | (3), (9) | 40 m | 7.125-7.300 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2) | 30 m | Entire band | RTTY, data | (3). | 20 m | 14.00-14.15 MHz | RTTY, data | (3). | 20 m | 14.15-14.35 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 17 m | 18.068-18.110 MHz | RTTY, data | (3). | 17 m | 18.110-18.168 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 15 m | 21.0-21.2 MHz | RTTY, data | (3), (9). | 15 m | 21.20-21.45 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 12 m | 24.89-24.93 MHz | RTTY, data | (3). | 12 m | 24.93-24.99 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 10 m | 28.0-28.3 MHz | RTTY, data | (4). | 10 m | 28.3-28.5 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2), (10). | 10 m | 28.5-29.0 MHz | Phone, image | (1), (2). | 10 m | 29.0-29.7 MHz | Phone, image | (2). | VHF: | | | | 6 m | 50.1-51.0 MHz | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data | (2), (5). | Do | 51.0-54.0 MHz | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, test | (2), (5), (8). | 2 m | 144.1-148.0 MHz | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, test | (2), (5), (8). | 1.25 m | 219-220 MHz | Data | (13) | Do | 222-225 MHz | RTTY, data, test MCW, phone, SS, image | (2), (6), (8) | UHF: | | | | 70 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test | (6), (8). | 33 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 23 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test | (7), (8), and (12). | 13 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | SHF: | | | | 9 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 5 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 3 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test | (7), (8), and (12). | 1.2 cm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | EHF: | | | | 6 mm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 4 mm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 2.5 mm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 2 mm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | 1mm | Entire band | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). | | Above 275 GHz | MCW, phone, image, RTTY, data, SS, test, pulse | (7), (8), and (12). |
? ? MRM
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Re: digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere.
?[grin]? ?except the ORIGINAL digital mode:? CW
cheers
gordon
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of K5ESS <k5ess.nothdurft@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BITX20] digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere.
?
Digital modes not allowed on 7277. ?FCC 97.305
Mike
K5ESS
?
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Don - KM4UDX
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [BITX20] digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere.
?
I gave phone/SSB a go last sunday from Northern Virginia, no luck.
I have much better luck with PSK31 or JT8.?
Does any uBITXer want to try digital modes on 10/15??
If so, I'd vote for staying on the same 7277 but use psk31 just for fun?
Don
km4udx
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Re: digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere.
Digital modes not allowed on 7277. ?FCC 97.305 Mike K5ESS ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Don - KM4UDX
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [BITX20] digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere. ? I gave phone/SSB a go last sunday from Northern Virginia, no luck.
I have much better luck with PSK31 or JT8.?
Does any uBITXer want to try digital modes on 10/15??
If so, I'd vote for staying on the same 7277 but use psk31 just for fun?
Don
km4udx
|
YEP !? Misstyped.... ------------------------------- On 10/11/2018 16:37, ajparent1/KB1GMX wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 04:04 AM, Woody wrote:
Already have new 680 uh inductors on order, not relays (yet).
Don't you mean 680nh?? Its only a factor of 1000 difference between nH and uH.
Allison
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Re: QSX 10W HF Linear PA kit
Allison,
concerning the "stuff" coming out of the first mixer passing
through the input lpf and reaching Q90: this gives me the hint
that the lpf does not problerly do what it should!
Did You make a measurement on the mirror reception which should
be attenuated by the input lpf? Or is it another stone to be
lifted?
In transmit mode the carrier leak should also be attenuated by
this lpf. BUT: in transmit mode there is also the sum of IF + VFO
of assumingly nearly? the same amplitude (in theory exactly the
same amplitude) as the wanted signal, which is reflected back into
the mixer-- probably producing more unwanted products wiothin the
mixer.
My idea is to use a diplexer (lpf - hpf the latter terminated
into 50 ohms, cross over frequency somewhere between 30 and 45
MHz)? and a three transistor "original W7ZOI design" amp (but with
BFR106 gain set to 15 dB) instead of the singe Q90.? Then another
stage --hm 2N5109 may be a good choice as You already stated.
One more thing which pussels me:
in the QRP-labs PA : the output stage fo the driver is using a
center tapped transformer. Why not choose an extra bifilar wound
choke as correctly done int the PA stage?? Did You try this
configuration?
Henning
Am 11.10.2018 um 21:18 schrieb
ajparent1/KB1GMX:
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Henning,
If you use Q90 you only need maybe 13-15db with headroom.
I'll make a comment.? BANDPASS the output of Q90, there is way too
much stuff coming
out that can even if it meets -43dbc down contribute to IMD and
stuff.? What I've seen
going into?Q90 was already dirty and had poor IMD, carrier
leakage.? If you don't then
worrying the IMD is pointless.
Hint: for building.? Get a small cone shaped Carborundum stone to
round the edges of the
FB61/43-2402 balun cores as they tend to have very sharp edges and
tends to scrape off
the enamel causes inter-turn shorts.? I use a Dremel (motor tool)
branded stone with
fingers for that.
IMD, D3 and D5 not fully tested yet.? I expect it will be close to
many of the 12V systems that
aren't burning current for running class A.? ?Then again if the
source and driver stages one
builds are not good your not going to get performance.? ?Grafted
to ubitx, why worry what
you get will be what you put in.
The 1db compression is at 13.8V is? 14-15W, moves up with voltage
to over 20W at 20V.? ?
That was with 125ma idle per-device.? ? Sweet spot on two was at
160ma each.
I have a few more to build and test for comparison and then get to
deeper testing.
Its a pleasure working with an amp that is bullet proof stable.
The RD16 does not need 500ma, unless your shooting for class A!?
more like 200-250 per device and
it also depends on Push-pull (lower) and single ended (higher).
In both cases IMD and idle current are connected to a point.
uBitx is IMD limits are low due to drive and other internal issues
before the amp.
My plan is using it with a modded Atlas 210X to replace the 100W
amp with
a QRPlabs amp plus driver.? The driver for that will be a MPS6514,
2n5109,
2n3545(ALC) and I expect at 10W about the same specs (IMD,
carrier,
harmonics) as the original radio.? The other mods include
replacing the
whole analog VFO with a digital VFO system.
Allison
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Re: QSX 10W HF Linear PA kit
Henning,
If you use Q90 you only need maybe 13-15db with headroom.
I'll make a comment.? BANDPASS the output of Q90, there is way too much stuff coming
out that can even if it meets -43dbc down contribute to IMD and stuff.? What I've seen
going into?Q90 was already dirty and had poor IMD, carrier leakage.? If you don't then
worrying the IMD is pointless.
Hint: for building.? Get a small cone shaped Carborundum stone to round the edges of the
FB61/43-2402 balun cores as they tend to have very sharp edges and tends to scrape off
the enamel causes inter-turn shorts.? I use a Dremel (motor tool) branded stone with
fingers for that.
IMD, D3 and D5 not fully tested yet.? I expect it will be close to many of the 12V systems that
aren't burning current for running class A.? ?Then again if the source and driver stages one
builds are not good your not going to get performance.? ?Grafted to ubitx, why worry what
you get will be what you put in.
The 1db compression is at 13.8V is? 14-15W, moves up with voltage to over 20W at 20V.? ?
That was with 125ma idle per-device.? ? Sweet spot on two was at 160ma each.
I have a few more to build and test for comparison and then get to deeper testing.
Its a pleasure working with an amp that is bullet proof stable.
The RD16 does not need 500ma, unless your shooting for class A!? more like 200-250 per device and
it also depends on Push-pull (lower) and single ended (higher).
In both cases IMD and idle current are connected to a point.
uBitx is IMD limits are low due to drive and other internal issues before the amp.
My plan is using it with a modded Atlas 210X to replace the 100W amp with
a QRPlabs amp plus driver.? The driver for that will be a MPS6514, 2n5109,
2n3545(ALC) and I expect at 10W about the same specs (IMD, carrier,
harmonics) as the original radio.? The other mods include replacing the
whole analog VFO with a digital VFO system.
Allison
|
digital mode BITX QSO Afternoon/Evening, Sunday, October, 14 3PM & 7PM Local Time, 7277 kHz in North America, 7177 kHz elsewhere.
I gave phone/SSB a go last sunday from Northern Virginia, no luck.
I have much better luck with PSK31 or JT8.?
Does any uBITXer want to try digital modes on 10/15??
If so, I'd vote for staying on the same 7277 but use psk31 just for fun?
Don
km4udx
|
Thanks, Allison.
Jack, W8TEE
On Thursday, October 11, 2018, 1:36:11 PM EDT, ajparent1/KB1GMX <kb1gmx@...> wrote:
STM32F4 series if memory serves.
Allison
|
Allison, This is a plot with a 680nH inductor in series with one side of the coil and relay armature. Note the self resonance is now off to the right beyond the 100Mhz scan width and that the plot is about 12dB worse than the one using a 100uH inductor.? My Mouser inductor order should be here today. As I said before I have no idea what happens if you add these inductors to ALL the relay coils (2 per) on a LPF board, but I have the boards ready to test with the appropriate inductor pads. The idea is to reduce the coupling between the RF on the active relay armature and the relay coil and to other relay coils and their armatures.? 73 Kees K5BCQ ?  sf
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Re: QSX 10W HF Linear PA kit
Allison,
I totally agree,? my post was just thinking for the stage after
Q90 or its better verison. My guess is that the BFR90 or as You
already mentioned these small signal transitors are not good
enough for "higer" powers.
One th9ing I really like of the IRF510 Pa is the lower quiescent
current: compared to the RD16HFF1 (aboput 500 mA per Transistor)
the IRF510 only draws 200 mA !
BTW:? on Hans?instruction paper I am missing the performance data
on the 1 dB compression point and of course the IMD behaviour (d3,
d5 etc). do You have these numbers?
My kit is shipped so I am anxious to build my unit and test!
Henning
DK5LV
? ?
Am 11.10.2018 um 19:39 schrieb
ajparent1/KB1GMX:
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On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 07:54 AM, Henning Weddig wrote:
oncerning the UBITX: the PA delivers 26 dB of gain, so for 10 W
output the input power for the PA is +40 dBm - 26 dB = +14 dBm
This power can be easily achieved with only one MMIC e.g. one of
the GALI amps--- or a discrete verions (BS170)?
You need more gain than that from the mixer to output.? About 30db
to 36db.? Also the driver need to deliver +14dbm but I'd
strongly suggest enough headroom to hit 20dbm.? You want to hit
10W but not have a stage limiting at 10W.
Allison
|
Re: QSX 10W HF Linear PA kit
timmy,
Your not even close.? The Funster (a CW rig) topology is to drive a class C final for CW
so linearity is not even considered.? So that is outside the conversation as usual.
The drive needed is about 25-80mW.??
I do agree MMICs are not needed and two good transistors capable of delivering a max
of 100mW in the 1-30mhz range will be more than adequate.
Allison
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Raj vu2zap
Nick VK4PP
MadRadioModder