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Brought anonymously at the request of the author:
My kids are 11 and 6, and since they were born, my husband and I have valued ¡°Always Saying Yes!¡± to their interests and desires. Like many here know, sometimes this means saying Yes to a safer variation of their desire or timing that fits the family team, but we usually follow their interests and find the excitement within. We currently unschool and have parented with attachment in mind from the beginning. (Both of us were parented more traditionally and went to public school.)
In the last few years, I¡¯ve noticed the theme of ¡°grandparents are meant to spoil their grandkids¡± within our families and also in the larger mainstream culture in the U.S. Often quoted memes like ¡°If I¡¯d known grandkids were so much fun, I would have had them first¡± seem to point to a belief that parents are supposed to be the strict ones who say no to their kids and do all the discipline, and grandparents are supposed to the ones who say yes.
Because our kids are growing up within a family culture of trust, genuine consideration for their requests, and saying yes whenever possible, I¡¯ve noticed that our parents don¡¯t necessarily have much room to do any ¡°spoiling¡± or ¡°indulging.¡± In fact, it¡¯s often the grandparents who enforce rules that they consider important, like ¡°no dessert before dinner¡± or ¡°only one scoop of ice cream/piece of candy.¡± (Their rules often are about food, interestingly enough.)
It feels like the stereotypical roles (grandparents who spoil vs. strict parents) have been reversed in our family, and I¡¯ve noticed that sometimes it seems to leave our parents adrift and a bit confused about what kind of relationship they¡¯re supposed to have with our kids.
I¡¯m curious about how other families have navigated this dynamic, and how they¡¯ve nurtured grandparent-grandchild relationships with their parents. How do you help them interact in ways that go beyond simply ¡°spoiling the grandkids¡±?
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Not my writing, but my name will show as the one who posted. ¡ªSandra
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REMINDER THAT THIS GROUP IS PUBLIC
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Response from another member:
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If grandparents acted in ways that generally lead to flourishing relationships - being around, helpful in ways that feel good to the other person, listening, being interested in what matters to the other person, etc - then the relationships would probably be much better. Instead, my parents would have liked for me and my husband to be less nice to our children (who are 14 and 10, and always unschooled), so that they (the grandparents) would seem comparatively nicer. They would have liked our children to be required to spend time with them alone, so that our children would rely on them more. They have rarely tried to understand our children's interests, or connect with them where they are at. They often notice things they perceive as deficits, and want to mold and fix them.??
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My parents do have seemingly better relationships with my nieces - they like seeing each other, embrace, turn to them for comfort, and so on. But I don't think my parents truly would be much comfort in most difficulties. It's more that my nieces have accepted the deal with the grandparents, the rules and expectations and so on, so there's a shared understanding of the relationship and accepted ways to go about it, that they all understand. By contrast, my parents are a bit stressed around me and my children, and my children never quite know what they are expected to do, nor is it much fun. The deal is that everyone gets to do particular games or activities, that the grandparents see as acceptable, and you're expected to act as though you enjoy them. My children try to go along with it but they prefer to have me or my husband there playing and helping, especially while around stressful people. My husband and I try too but none of us can really relax and enjoy it, and the relationships haven't progressed beyond that.
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A few months ago my mum pressured me into inviting her to a special museum exhibition that was coming up. When I told my 14 year old daughter that my mum and step-dad would be coming too, she cried. I thought my parents just stressed me, as they aren't mean, and they do love us. But it turns out, all those expectations affect my daughter too. She can't relax around them, the way she can with just us. I hadn't realised till then (and I won't respond to pressure that way again).?
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So maybe there's not much that can be done, other than keep on trying and problem-solving the best way forward. And maybe those other grandparent-grandchild relationships are partly false pretences that everyone is going along with, but maybe not enjoying as much as it looks like.?
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This webpage, and others it links to, have helped me when navigating these difficulties?
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________________________ end of now-anonymous post ________________
(If you know who it was, try to forget. :-) )
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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REMINDER
This group is not private.? Don't say things you wouldn't want others to read.? It's not a confidential therapy session.? Try to discuss ideas, as ideas, rather than people.? How would unschooling principles apply?? What is sensible and beneficial to the children?
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The original question seems to be largely about memes and stereotypes, and guesses at what grandparents might perhaps be expecting.
"If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier."
Could that be applied to grandparents, too?
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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From the first response above:
It's more that my nieces have accepted the deal with the grandparents, the rules and expectations and so on, so there's a shared understanding of the relationship and accepted ways to go about it, that they all understand.
It can't be that grandparents are required to become unschoolers retroactively.
It can't be that grandparents don't have rights in their own homes when unschoolers come to visit.
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Where there are rules and expectations (and so on), and the children have their parents as partners, the best thing the partner can do is to prepare them to "accept the deal with the grandparents, the rules and expectations and so on"
my children never quite know what they are expected to do
The same link with the ideas about coaching would help with that.
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Sandra
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I also thought straight away of the ¡®if your child is more important than your vision of your child¡¯ quote Sandra referred to in the last post. Totally applies to grandparents! (and husbands and sisters and ¡whoever!)
The idea of grandparents always being ¡®treaty¡¯ seems like a stereotype which is not seeing the grandparents as who they are - as people, still also parents themselves.
My mother was never ¡®treaty¡¯ - her gifts were famously mean (it became a family joke that even she acknowledged), and her input into the children¡¯s lives was frankly quite judgmental. But we talked about it as a family (usually when she had just visited or a visit was coming up) and we talked about how seeing her with my kids gave me really helpful insights into her insecurities when she was a mum with young children herself and helped me understand her and feel less anger towards her holding us at arms length. We really knew the love was there and we found ways to let her know we knew.
I suppose it felt sometimes that we as a family were sort of mothering her - acknowledging that she wasn¡¯t finding being a granny particularly easy just as she hasn¡¯t found being a mum easy.
Sometimes the kids would come back from spending time with her and dump on me about how she had said this or that, but I think the very process of listening and talking respectfully about someone we both loved and who we knew loved us (but was complicated) was so bonding - we really grew in those moments and it helped us all understand that people are, well, people, not just grannies or mums or another trope.
She has passed away now and we feel warm about her, but i¡¯ll be honest we don¡¯t miss her expectations. I feel sad that she really missed an opportunity for connection but that was her call. We just worked with what we had.
Belinda
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First of all, I feel unschooling principles can be extended to everyone in the family and extended family.
A lot of times, as unschooling parents, I find we forget that the decision to unschool was ours and not the grandparents'. The expectation does creep in that grandparents should get that our way of being with our children is better or more evolved than how they raised us.
I find this complain a lot in many unschooling newbies, especially. The parents are almost in a state of rebellion with the grandparents. I find it unfair. It was not their choice that we chose to unschool. Most of the times they are not included in the process of unschooling choices.
I found it easier to see the grandparents as people who made different choices based on what they knew was right for them or the times they were parenting.?
I tried to have conversations with my children around how grandparents think differently, how they might have different values, beliefs and perspectives about life.
?When they were younger I always hung around to diffuse any escalation or meltdowns or battle of wits. Also when we were visiting their homes, it was important that we tried to adhere to their ways of living. But when they visited us, I made sure my children could be free to enjoy their home as theirs, while trying to make the grandparents comfortable during their stay.
As the children grew older I took small steps out of the dynamics, I stepped away bit by bit and let them form their own balance and equations with their grandparents. Both sides learnt to negotiate with each other. Each time building my heart muscles, to listen when their were rough edges on either sides, without taking sides.
For me, part of unschooling was also to help my children see that there all kinds of people in the world and that if they valued the relationship for whatever reasons of their own, they might also see how to find those middle paths of love, kindness, fun and joy in these relationships.?
I think what really helped my children to respect the boundaries of other people including grandparents and negotiate the expectations of those relationships, was the freedom of choice and connection they found in our own home. The cup runneth full at home, so giving in a bit here and there with grandparents has not been that hard. Also what helped them was that they were treated with respect for being who they were at home, and that helped them to extend it to their grandparents too.
Dola
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Regarding perceived or real favoritism, that isn't necessarily a result of unschooling.? My sister and I had very different relationships with my grandparents because they had an easier time finding things to connect with me about, whereas she was more stressed out by having visitors/visiting.? With my own kids, I try to find things for them to do with their grandparents that both will find enjoyable.?
With one grandmother, that looks more like going out to lunch at a restaurant or an afternoon out at the zoo.? It's more "neutral" than either of our homes and there's a clear set of expectations socially for the kids, and also kind of a natural time limit on the visit.?
For the other grandmother it might be something like taking the dog out for a walk and then blowing bubbles/doing chalk in the backyard.? I prepare the kids ahead of time by letting them know things like we're going to leave the electronics in the car while we're here.? Or maybe I let the grandparents know ahead of time that so and so isn't feeling very social today and is bringing a show to watch while we visit.?
I try to get a feel for what stresses the grandparents out, what they enjoy about the grand kids the most, and then trying to set up our visits to include more of those things and fewer things that might cause conflict.
For example the kids there were some stressful moments with the treatment of the croquet set on our last visit, so before we come over next time I'm planning to ask if it could stay put away for the visit, and I'm going to let the kids know before we go that we won't be playing croquet this time but we WILL be decorating cookies.
Sometimes it helps to reassure the grandparents that it's okay to "spoil" on something in particular.? Like maybe with food I might mention that the kids had a good lunch before we came, so no need to worry about making sure they eat a balanced dinner before dessert.? (No need to include particulars on what that good lunch was).?
And I'll coach the kids ahead of time on things like, "grandma loves to give you a second bowl of ice cream, but she is happier if you don't ask for three bowls."? And the kids know there's more at home, so it's not a big issue.
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==Because our kids are growing up within a family culture of trust, genuine consideration for their requests, and saying yes whenever possible, I¡¯ve noticed that
our parents don¡¯t necessarily have much room to do any ¡°spoiling¡± or ¡°indulging.¡±==
But that doesn't mean that your kids can't form their own relationships with their grandparents. Just because something is accepted in a culture or as a meme, doesn't mean it needs to be a truth for everyone.
==It feels like the stereotypical roles (grandparents who spoil vs. strict parents) have been reversed in our family, and I¡¯ve noticed that sometimes it seems to leave our parents adrift and a bit confused about what kind of relationship they¡¯re supposed to
have with our kids.==
Once you decided to unschool your kids, you left behind stereotypical roles - and this is just another example. If your parents seem adrift help them forge a relationship with their grandchildren.
==I¡¯m curious about how other families have navigated this dynamic, and how they¡¯ve nurtured grandparent-grandchild relationships with their parents. How
do you help them interact in ways that go beyond simply ¡°spoiling the grandkids¡±?==
When my son was younger, I'll be honest that I probably kind of micro-managed his relationship with my in-laws, especially my MIL. She, in particular, WANTED to be the grandmother who spoilt her grandkids, because that was what she remembered of her own grandmother,
and also how her own Mother treated her grandkids - and - yes - there was little chance for that with my kid, and she did have more rules than we had at home. But I'd encourage them to do other things together - she loves baking, she loves shopping, they made
pasta together, made gingerbread Christmas houses, that kind of thing..I did sometimes engineer situations, but once they were happily doing something together, I tried to back off and leave them to it.?
Now my son is nearly 16, and they have their own relationship that I don't micromanage. And my son has developed his own relationship with my FIL that is now stronger than ever, I'd say.?
My own Mum is not a 'spoiler' - as neither was her Mom/my Nan before her. And although we don't see her often (she's on a different continent) - they've always had a good relationship probably mostly based on the fact that my Mum doesn't, and never has, talked
to him like a kid. She's always treated him like another adult, and he's always appreciated that - even when young. It's a much different looking relationship to his other Nana, though.
All to say - help them develop their own relationships, don't have a preconceived idea of what that should look like. Help them all however you can, especially when kids are small.
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Brought anonymously at the request of the author:
My kids are 11 and 6, and since they were born, my husband and I have valued ¡°Always Saying Yes!¡± to their interests and desires. Like many here know, sometimes this means
saying Yes to a safer variation of their desire or timing that fits the family team, but we usually follow their interests and find the excitement within. We currently unschool and have parented with attachment in mind from the beginning. (Both of us were
parented more traditionally and went to public school.)
In the last few years, I¡¯ve noticed the theme of ¡°grandparents are meant to spoil their grandkids¡± within our families and also in the larger mainstream culture in the U.S.
Often quoted memes like ¡°If I¡¯d known grandkids were so much fun, I would have had them first¡± seem to point to a belief that parents are supposed to be the strict ones who say no to their kids and do all the discipline, and grandparents are supposed to the
ones who say yes.
Because our kids are growing up within a family culture of trust, genuine consideration for their requests, and saying yes whenever possible, I¡¯ve noticed that our parents
don¡¯t necessarily have much room to do any ¡°spoiling¡± or ¡°indulging.¡± In fact, it¡¯s often the grandparents who enforce rules that they consider important, like ¡°no dessert before dinner¡± or ¡°only one scoop of ice cream/piece of candy.¡± (Their rules often are
about food, interestingly enough.)
It feels like the stereotypical roles (grandparents who spoil vs. strict parents) have been reversed in our family, and I¡¯ve noticed that sometimes it seems to leave our parents
adrift and a bit confused about what kind of relationship they¡¯re supposed to have with our kids.
I¡¯m curious about how other families have navigated this dynamic, and how they¡¯ve nurtured grandparent-grandchild relationships with their parents. How do you help them interact
in ways that go beyond simply ¡°spoiling the grandkids¡±?
?
________________________ end of quote ____________________
Not my writing, but my name will show as the one who posted. ¡ªSandra
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On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 05:48 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
My kids are 11 and 6, and since they were born, my husband and I have valued ¡°Always Saying Yes!¡± to their interests and desires.
This is how that looks on Joyce's page these days:?
Very many people took her original article title, without reading the title, and caused problems for themselves, their children, their marriages, their relationships with others, their own clarity.? ?Very many people came back and said "But you said..." and complained about the problems being caused.
As Joyce wrote later:??
This response, probably more than any response I've written, has helped and confused more people ;-)
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Don't think of "say yes" as a rule. In fact, use the better phrasing of "Say yes more." (I can't remember who first rephrased it that way, but I thank them!) Ask yourself, "Why not? Who's going to die?" If you're unsure of yes say, "Let me think about it." And then?do?think. (You can also get on line to ask for perspective.) Don't use it as a delaying tactic, hoping they'll forget. Be trustworthy.
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See these as tools to move toward being your child's partner. Rather than shutting down a child's request that may be inconvenient, see them as requests to explore, to try out their ideas. Help them find safe, respectful of others, practical ways to do what has piqued their curiosity.?
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I'm keeping the original title because many have said the shocking statement was a helpful pull in the right direction for them.
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That, and the original writing, are here:
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I know that I took one sentence from the first post in this topic, without what followed.? I will quote it below, but the qualifying "I know..." statements didn't change the (seeming) face that problems had been created.? :-)
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That quote with some more context:
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"My kids are 11 and 6, and since they were born, my husband and I have valued ¡°Always Saying Yes!¡± to their interests and desires. Like many here know, sometimes this means saying Yes to a safer variation of their desire or timing that fits the family team, but we usually follow their interests and find the excitement within."
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Sandra
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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I wrote this but somehow it went on a new thread! Reposting on this thread.
First of all, I feel unschooling principles can be extended to everyone in the family and extended family.
A lot of times, as unschooling parents, I find we forget that the decision to unschool was ours and not the grandparents'. The expectation does creep in that grandparents should get that our way of being with our children is better or more evolved than how they raised us.
I find this complain a lot in many unschooling newbies, especially. The parents are almost in a state of rebellion with the grandparents. I find it unfair. It was not their choice that we chose to unschool. Most of the times they are not included in the process of unschooling choices.
I found it easier to see the grandparents as people who made different choices based on what they knew was right for them or the times they were parenting.?
I tried to have conversations with my children around how grandparents think differently, how they might have different values, beliefs and perspectives about life.
?When they were younger I?always?hung around to diffuse any escalation or meltdowns or battle of wits. Also when we were visiting their homes, it was important that we tried to adhere to their ways of living. But when they visited us, I made sure my children could be free to enjoy their home as theirs, while trying to make the grandparents comfortable during their stay.
As the children grew older I took small steps out of the dynamics, I stepped away bit by bit and let them form their own balance and equations with their grandparents. Both sides learnt to negotiate with each other. Each time building my heart muscles, to listen when there were rough edges on either sides, without taking sides.
For me, part of unschooling was also to help my children see that there all kinds of people in the world and that if they valued the relationship for whatever reasons of their own, they might also see how to find those middle paths of love, kindness, fun and joy in these relationships.?
I think what really helped my children to respect the boundaries of other people including grandparents and negotiate the expectations of those relationships, was the freedom of choice and connection they found in our own home. The cup runneth full at home, so giving in a bit here and there with grandparents has not been that hard. Also what helped them was that they were treated with respect for being who they were at home, and that helped them to extend it to their grandparents too.
Dola
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belinda dutch
