On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

I feel *irresponsible* not doing some things in a more "school-y" fashion.

How do I let go (or maybe come to accept?) this feeling of irresponsibility?

Take the word apart.? Spread the word out on the floor.? :-)

Irresponsibility.

Responsibility

Respond

Who are you answerable to?? Who is this person to whom you're feeling a responsibility?? Parents? Grandparents?? Teachers?? The cool looking women on old encyclopedias that looked like the statue of Justice or of Liberty?? Athena, probably, on the encyclopedia.? Maybe you're not old enough to feel vaguely answerable to her.

I would like to suggest that if you want to unschool, you are responsible for (not to) providing an environment in which your children aren't harmed by school OR schoolishness.? ?Provide a nest that is all about learning and not about teaching,? ?"All about learning" can be made of experiences, foods, conversations, videos, music, looking at bugs, playing Minecraft...? ?

Sandra

Sandra, I think that you do a beautiful job of writing about things philosophically and I am so grateful for it. Thank you for doing what you do so eloquently and in such a thought provoking way - I think you summarized it very well in your last post about looking for writing without pen and paper, etc.

I feel I can grasp these ideas and do well with recognizing and valuing and often seeing them “in real life” but struggle to write about it that way, hence why I tend to just chuck resources at people. (; I probably won’t contribute anymore in the future just since I don’t think I am currently able to provide the conversation and idea bouncing you’re looking for, so I will go back to being a grateful reader and supporter. And I do feel like the clarity provided by the last few posts is helping me feel like I’m leaving this “on good terms” as I had taken things quite personally earlier on. ?

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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 07:45 PM, Marijah wrote:
People have processes. Deciding to unschool and carrying it out is a continual process. You allude to a process of your own around unschooling chores in your book - something you had not originally done - yet seem to scold any hinting at a process for people instead of “just deciding to do it.”

I've been sharing my process openly for over 30 years now.? For me and Pam Sorooshian, chores was maybe the final frontier (not 'final" because our kids got older and triggered some of our own stuff, and that's usually unpredictable :-) ).? ?We learned from Joyce Fetteroll's sharing of HER processes about why learning about housekeeping fit in with all the principles we had been applying to other things.??

That's been shared often, in the discussions.??

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-=-yet seem to scold any hinting at a process for people instead of “just deciding to do it.”-=-

I hope you will be able to stop accusing me of scolding you, and get back to the principles behind why unschooling works.

Things that lead TOWARD those principles will help a person who came with a problem more than ideas that lead away from it, or ideas that cost money or would take weeks to order, obtain and read.? Let's give good ideas that will work today and tomorrow, and in five or ten years for those who will read this later.

It's not "deciding" to do it, it's moving incrementally, step by step, choice by choice in the more unschooling direction.

Sandra

I see now. I feel like this response offered the clarity I was lacking as I felt I had responded with exactly what you had originally asked for and then you had picked it apart. This, your true desire for this to spark a philosophical conversation, helps me understand your responses and why you were unhappy with mine. Thank you for clarifying.?

I don’t fee I could accurately summarize how my own thinking changed as a result of those books, or even of your website, as I feel it is something I struggle to do. I usually feel very stuck in communicating that and thus prefer to just recommend helpful resources and allow people to read them and hope that they will come to the same conclusion.?

I liked the bit you posted from a yahoo groups thread. It is true that “emotion can block logic thinking” as our emotions being high/our amygdala firing would inhibit our ability to think/reason clearly. Nervous system regulation is very helpful for problem solving and gaining perspective.?

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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

I would love some help in how to look at this differently.

Look for mathematics without numbers.

Look for writing without pen and paper.

Whatever looks schoolish to you (whether you're thinking it's right, or wrong that doesn't matter) turn away from it for a while, until you get past the roadblock.

?

While you're at it, maybe look at art without painting. :-)? ? Art that's not taught in school, maybe.? Art that's around your house.

Music without notation, without formal instruments.??

History without dates and names.??

This has some ideas.? If you're using a phone, turn it sideways, maybe, when you get there:

?

Sandra

This is about ANY hurdles, and about things seeming obvious.?

It's about why people are defensive, partly, too.

I have lifted it from a facebook discussion (Radical Unschooling Info) and it's 11 years old, but still good and true.? I only lifted the first few—there are others there, at the link below.

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The first part was cut off a bit in the format, but the question was this:

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This is no slight to anyone: but how is it , when you, or others on the Yahoo groups, for example, answer/help with a "dilemma" and the answer is so sensical and obvious, how is it that we didn't see it to begin with?

I don't think there's a directory.

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I hope people with current younger kids will come to help with current ideas.

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Realities have changed since my kids were young, but mine played online with locals, and gradually others were added.? They played online multi-player games and met kids that way.??

There used to be more conferences.? That doesn't work as well as it used to.? Ditto park days, but they might be making a comeback.

?

Sandra

?

I see and I know you have stated before that you do not mean to make things personal but rather about the principles or ideas. I am trying to keep that in mind. Your site is almost always my first go to and recommendation for people wanting to learn more about unschooling - unless they are looking for an audio/podcast.?

It seems you were upset that I was recommending an outsider source that’s “never been in this group” and the book would need to be purchased (or obtained from a library) versus your widely available site. I can understand that, however as I stated, I was under the assumption that OP would have already read your site exhaustively before writing in for additional help and that’s why I mentioned an outside source. I didn’t think recommending from your site would be helpful as I assumed they had already read it and weren’t connecting the dots properly. I too am extremely grateful for your website and that it is free and vast and a true treasure trove. It’s been more helpful to me than any other resource, hands down. I wasn’t trying to downplay it or put something else “above it” in recommendations.?

It does seem as though you are judging Sue’s process - from “partial unschooler” to “radical unschooler”, which as I stated, does seem hypocritical or atleast contradictory in light of the “read a little, try a little, wait” mantra. And also the whole discussion around how we move towards peace, step by step and choice by choice at a time, making continually better choices (hopefully) as we go.?

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 07:57 PM, Marijah wrote:

Maybe they just need to read your site

Maybe, but mostly I was hoping the question could be discussed here as a philosophical question, in ways that could help the mom see past that blind spot or blockage she's having.

Explaining how your own thinking changed because of what you read would be better than recommending a particular book.

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When I add a link, I'm assuming that even if the original poster has read it, there will be others who have not.? I aim my responses to people I can't see, who will never post, and to those who might not even have kids yet but will be searching someday and come across this discussion. That's why I want them to be about the topics and about unschooling and not about individuals,.??

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Thanks!

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Sandra

-=-Perhaps I am missing what it is you are objecting to?-=-

I thought a recommendation to read a book by someone who didn't start
off solidly with unschooling was a side path.

It's true I haven't read that book, but I don't think others should
need to read it, either, to get information that's freely available in
the archives here and at my site.

Just today I got this by e-mail:

"Thank you SO, so much for keeping your site and all your knowledge
FREE to anyone who seeks and asks. I'm inundated with people offering
advice if I just want to pay their monthly fee. (It's very tiring.)
I'm really grateful for you and your amazing, lovely rabbit-warren of
a website. :) "
________

Perhaps because this was fresh in mind that I didn't think a book by
someone who's never been in this group should be anyone's first go-to,
or primary recommendation.

Sandra

I realized I did want to clarify one last bit - I didn’t recommend anything from your extensive website only because I assumed the original poster would have already read everything pertaining to that topic contained within your website and be asking for additional help/outside resources to overcome their hurdle.

Hence why I thought my memory of Sue’s book could be a helpful piece for them.

Maybe they just need to read your site.

Don't take things personally. It's about the ideas, not about the people.

-=-I won’t engage anymore with you in this email thread or possibly at
all in the future as I feel very confused and that your further
responses don’t seem to be trying to clarify or respond to me at
all.-=-

I was NOT trying to clarify or respond to individuals.

Here's why, from an intro page to this group:
Always Learning is not a social network but a list to discuss what
helps and hinders unschooling. The list exists to deepen understanding
of natural learning.
____________

Joyce Fetteroll, one of the moderators, described it this way:

The list is about ideas, not about people.

Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce
___________________



Offer what worked for you and why you think it worked, addressed to
the group, not to an individual. If you see things in a comment that
will lead away from the principles of radical unschooling, point that
out if you can.

That's how it works.

I wish the group was still fast-paced and busy. We had months with
over 1000 posts (a bit TOO busy). Lately, some posts have none.
Still, it can stay true to its purpose.

Sandra

I did not read that book in order to decide NOT to do math with my kids. I read that book - along with your book, almost the entirety of your website and Joyce’s and countless others, and many unschooling podcasts - as part of my journey on deciding to DO IT as well as the why and how of that. I just particularly remembered Sue’s bit on the Maths topic and I felt it could be helpful to this particular original poster. Have you read Sue’s book?

You asked for things that could be helpful or were helpful and I tried to offer just that.

I won’t engage anymore with you in this email thread or possibly at all in the future as I feel very confused and that your further responses don’t seem to be trying to clarify or respond to me at all. Perhaps you only wanted your own blog posts quoted as resources that could be helpful? Or perhaps you only wanted definitive, “one and done” decisiveness communicated even though you clearly reiterate countless times on your website to “read a little, try a little, wait.”

People have processes. Deciding to unschool and carrying it out is a continual process. You allude to a process of your own around unschooling chores in your book - something you had not originally done - yet seem to scold any hinting at a process for people instead of “just deciding to do it.”

-=-- I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get
the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it
themselves.-=-

I would rather people NOT go and read a book that you had to read to
decide NOT to do math with kids.

The starting place, here, should be the intention to be a radical
unschooler, not the vague plan to muddle around in that direction for
a while.


Sandra

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:46?PM Marijah via groups.io
<Mijeezie@...> wrote:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.

And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.

I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.


On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:

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[Edited Message Follows]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:

I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.

So...

That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.

It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff." So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.

But how? That's the question. :-) Knowing that some regret it can be helpful. To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:





Sandra




--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one. "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

开云体育

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing ?that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.?

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:06 PM, Marijah wrote:

We also grew up with a lot of shame and control

A big part of deschooling, and a big benefit of unschooling is the healing of childhood memories and effects that the parents can experience.? If parents want to hang on to their childhoods and work from there, it will be a bit like ghostly children trying to unschooling living children.? Parents need to find ways to be whole and present, aware and really WITH their children.

?
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:

I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.?

So...?

That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.

It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff."? So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.

But how?? That's the question.? :-)? Knowing that some regret it can be helpful.? To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:

?

Sandra

?

?
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)