Re: Alphabet notes and video
Random alphabet thoughts:
Crazy ABCs by Barenaked Ladies on their kids album (Snack time) is cute.?
Dr. Suess's ABCs is one of the five year olds favorite books right now too.?
My third daughter's name is ?owyn with an accent on top.? Her birth certificate includes the accent. Her social security card does not because it's not officially in the alphabet.? When she was little she would tell people writing her name, "Don't forget my accident!". The other day she and her sister were talking about the names of Elon Musk's kids and how they had to change the names because the State of California didn't recognize symbols in birth certificates.? That conversation was an evolving one where they started with one thing, ended in a totally different place, and fact checked a few things online along the way.
The alphabet has been useful for helping my kids write something down when my hands are busy with another kid.? My 14 year old asked me to help her alphabetize her Pokemon card collection a couple weeks ago.? (She knows it.? I never "taught" it to her.? It was a lot of cards).
I bought that app today thinking my 5 and 3 year olds might enjoy it, and my 9 year old got excited because it says the words and has them written down.? He went through the whole alphabet twice in a row on the game.? He's VERY close to reading fluently.? I think he actually is at this point but shy about maybe being wrong so still asking me what words say.?
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I've just modernized this page, replaced one video code with a newer one, fixed links, added a credit....
There are four videos there and one song (sound recording provided by?Jane Clossick, who was a mom in the discussion then and might still be here now :-)_
If you have younger kids, they might be interested in one or more of these.? The music is interesting on all of them.??
?
The game discussed there, Metamorphabet, is on my iPad and my phone.? My granddaughter who is 14 used to play it, and three little granddaughters (3, 4 and 5) play it nearly every time they're over here.? ?It's art that does things, responds to touch, has sound... not "a game" one can lose, but more like a toy, and it reads itself to you.? It's available directly and it's on Steam.? Theres a link on the page,
?
If people want to discuss the alphabet here, I'd be happy to. :-)? It used to be crucial for looking people up in phone books, for finding things in dictionaries, for using a library.? ?What now?
It's fun to think about, and those songs are sweet either way.
?
Sandra
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Re: New interview (new this year)
Ah, editing. I should do it better.
I wrote: "There's a photo of me, and one of my grown kids there, too."
One (photo) of (all of) my grown kids there, too.
I would bring the photo here, but I don't want to fill the storage
with things that are cleanly one link away.
When I started discussing unschooling with other people, locally, I
was pregnant with Holly. She will be 32 years old early next month.
:-)
I started writing online when all my kids were under ten, and now
they're all in their 30s. Wow.
I'm happy to keep distributing clues and tools to younger parents who
want to step confidently toward partnership with children, and I
appreciate the help of others in sharing stories of learning and of
contentment and joy. :-)
Sandra
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New interview (new this year)
Luna Maj Vestergaard?interviewed me by e-mail for a Danish publication.? I really enjoyed the exchange.? There's a photo of me, and one of my grown kids there, too.? She has imbedded links in the text, which is a civilized and useful way to do it!??
Here's the beginning:
If you were to define unschooling in three words, what would they be?
I wouldn¡¯t. It¡¯s too easy to mislead. Too often, people grab a phrase or idea and run off and make a mess with it. If it¡¯s used lightly though, I don¡¯t mind ¡°learning from life¡±.
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If we were not a "legacy group" rescued by Groups io (from the fall of yahoogroups a few years back), this group, with this many members, would be much more expensive.
?
I just got this notice:
"This is a friendly reminder that your Premium Groups.io group?[email protected]?will be billed $220.00 on Monday, October 23, 2023 for the next twelve months."
If you're financially comfortable and want to help defray the costs, there is a link to a paypal donation button at??
____________
It would be great if this group were busier, but even when it's quiet, it's like an important storage area in the Unschooling Museum that needs to be kept dry and secure and air conditioned. :-)? There are many hundreds and probably thousands of links back to posts or discussions, all over my site.? It really is the best unschooling discussion there ever was; I've been in dozens, over 30+ years.
I invite questions about unschooling, or stories of successes, or of problems you've overcome.? If someone finds an old discussion you'd like to stir back up, search around and comment; that would be fine, too.
Thanks for reading, please write, and I hope unschooling is going well in your family, or that you're past those days and filled with happy memories.?
Here is a link to a photo of Pam Sorooshian (longtime moderator of this group, from the beginning, with me and Joyce Fetteroll). She was holding her first grandchild; there are four now.? ?It's today's Just Add Light and Stir post,? .
?
Sandra
?
?
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"How to Unschool" (by Linda Wyatt)
One thing led to another, and I came upon something Linda Wyatt wrote in 2012.? Some of you probably saw it then, but I saw it today, and now it's here:
?
PLEASE read it when you have time and mood.? It's probably the best list I've ever seen of what to do to make unschooling take hold in your soul, your life and your family.
Some good parts are going to end up in Just Add Light and Stir, and Linda gave me permission to use some waterfall photos in that blog, too.? The waterfall at the link above will lead to those others.? Those are in rural New York, or some such.? They excited me, because I'm in New Mexico, where waterfalls are very scarce. :-)??
I hope you enjoy that page and that maybe you have a friend who could use Linda's strong and solid introduction to unschooling.
?
Sandra
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13 years of Just Add Light and Stir
Tomorrow is the 13th anniversary of Just Add Light and Stir.??
If you are not subscribed to that, and if you ever check e-mail anymore, I hope you will subscribe.??
Each day there is some info to think about (a quote from my site, usually, or maybe something written to match the photo), and a photo of something or someone being soothing or inspiring or funny, usually).??
I'm going to keep doing it, because the feedback is good. :-)
There is a randomizer (upper right from a computer, bottom center from a phone).
You can go by the elements of the photos, too¡ªfrom a computer, the tags are about the images,? You can look at all the gates, or bridges, paths or rainbows.??
Sandra
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-=-I was really scared of my mom¡¯s disapproval. THAT ancient fear....-=-
Old recordings. Messages in our heads. Everyone has those, but not
everyone KNOWS about them. :-)
Those voices that tell us what to do are part of what is considered
our "super ego"¡ªthe part of our mind (not brain, but of the model of
our thoughts and awareness) that is our conscience and critical self
image.
Voices in your Head
There are probably some good ones, and maybe some old leftovers
-=-Anyone else curious to know the book Sandra is listening to? :-) -=-
Psychotherapy Without the Self: A Buddhist Perspective
By: Mark Epstein MD
Narrated by: Dean Sluyter
Length: 7 hrs and 27 mins
Release date: 09-04-12
Language: English
I came back to leave the link, because someone else asked, too.
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?I love this point.
When it *feels* like I¡¯m ¡°struggling¡± with a decision, or doubt about a course of action, it usually means that there¡¯s a contradiction in my values/beliefs/goals/thinking that I haven¡¯t seen through all the way. Oftentimes that means that on one side there¡¯s a value I deeply hold and am seeing my way towards living more fully, while on the other there are some old fears or beliefs that I don¡¯t *really* buy into anymore, but that I am still hooked into enough to be thrown off by. If I haven¡¯t looked calmly and consciously at what that old stuff is and how it presents itself, then when it *does* present itself I will ¡°struggle.¡±
Two years ago, I might have said I was struggling with the decision of whether or not to unschool. What this really meant was that I deeply wanted to, but I had doubts and reservations that threw me off balance whenever they came up. And since I was handling the doubts by bargaining with them¡ªtrying to appease them enough, mentally or through action, to buy little respites from them¡ªthey came up again and again, but I didn¡¯t get any closer to understanding their validity or lack thereof. Struggle!?
But it dropped significantly away when I saw clearly that I was really scared of my mom¡¯s disapproval. THAT ancient fear from MY past was the real root of most of my doubts, which on the surface truly seemed to be about my kids. Knowing that, it is so much easier to see the doubtful thoughts for what they are, put them in their proper place in relation to my actual values, and let them come and go without the ¡°struggle.¡±??It?doesn¡¯t mean the process is done (no way), or that it¡¯s always easy for me. BUT when it¡¯s hard, it¡¯s hard in a more productive, positive, not-struggly way.?
I got excited to respond to this in a flurry of words (while my kids run wild in the rainy yard) because lately I¡¯ve been consciously working on NOT bargaining with my fears, but rather looking at them squarely and deciding whether they are valid, or just old noise. If valid, I try to choose *actual* action (and sometimes just the attempt to do so is enough to reveal that they¡¯re actually not valid after all); if old noise, I try not to bargain with them. (This is going on in real time for me around my kids¡¯ love of cartoons and various iPad games that I was once fearful of in a mainstream, unexamined way.)?
Anyone else curious to know the book Sandra is listening to? :-)?
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On Aug 25, 2023, at 1:20 PM, dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
? There is a whole bunch of 'teachings' which glorify 'struggle' and 'suffering'; a sort of negative judgement towards possibilities of choices and looking at them openly. Making choices that feel joyful and light (even easy ones) are often seen as frivolous or lacking in moral fiber. Why cannot we put feelings of joy and simply feeling good as our guiding star!?
Dola
On Fri, 25 Aug 2023, 9:18 pm Sandra Dodd, < aelflaed@...> wrote: The phrase "to grapple with self" showed up in a??book I'm listening to, read by a reader I like, taking about psychology and Buddhist concepts, and how they can be seen together.? I like the author.? I like the topic!??
I do not like casual use of terms like "grapple" or "battle" or "struggle" used (increasingly, especially "struggle") about everyday thoughts and decisions.
Please, if you hear yourself saying "I struggle with..." or you see yourself writing it, or you're even thinking it, stop.? Stop struggling.? Make choices.? First, maybe, choose not to struggle.? Make a choice calmly and happily and see how that feels.? You can make another choice in a few minutes if that one seemed wrong. :-)
It's true that psychotherapists deal with people who are paying money for help to avoid struggling, pretty often, but even then and there, using more peaceful terms should be helpful.
Unschooling works better in the absence of struggle.??
Don't grapple with your self.? Your self has enough problems. :-)
Sandra
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There is a whole bunch of 'teachings' which glorify 'struggle' and 'suffering'; a sort of negative judgement towards possibilities of choices and looking at them openly. Making choices that feel joyful and light (even easy ones) are often seen as frivolous or lacking in moral fiber. Why cannot we put feelings of joy and simply feeling good as our guiding star!?
Dola
On Fri, 25 Aug 2023, 9:18 pm Sandra Dodd, < aelflaed@...> wrote: The phrase "to grapple with self" showed up in a??book I'm listening to, read by a reader I like, taking about psychology and Buddhist concepts, and how they can be seen together.? I like the author.? I like the topic!??
I do not like casual use of terms like "grapple" or "battle" or "struggle" used (increasingly, especially "struggle") about everyday thoughts and decisions.
Please, if you hear yourself saying "I struggle with..." or you see yourself writing it, or you're even thinking it, stop.? Stop struggling.? Make choices.? First, maybe, choose not to struggle.? Make a choice calmly and happily and see how that feels.? You can make another choice in a few minutes if that one seemed wrong. :-)
It's true that psychotherapists deal with people who are paying money for help to avoid struggling, pretty often, but even then and there, using more peaceful terms should be helpful.
Unschooling works better in the absence of struggle.??
Don't grapple with your self.? Your self has enough problems. :-)
Sandra
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The phrase "to grapple with self" showed up in a??book I'm listening to, read by a reader I like, taking about psychology and Buddhist concepts, and how they can be seen together.? I like the author.? I like the topic!??
I do not like casual use of terms like "grapple" or "battle" or "struggle" used (increasingly, especially "struggle") about everyday thoughts and decisions.
Please, if you hear yourself saying "I struggle with..." or you see yourself writing it, or you're even thinking it, stop.? Stop struggling.? Make choices.? First, maybe, choose not to struggle.? Make a choice calmly and happily and see how that feels.? You can make another choice in a few minutes if that one seemed wrong. :-)
It's true that psychotherapists deal with people who are paying money for help to avoid struggling, pretty often, but even then and there, using more peaceful terms should be helpful.
Unschooling works better in the absence of struggle.??
Don't grapple with your self.? Your self has enough problems. :-)
Sandra
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Those moments of GETTING IT
I quoted from this page for today's Just Add Light and Stir post.??
Because of questions in the "last hurdle" topic, I thought I should bring it up.? For those who have already read about deschooling, and feel themselves to be on a course (like a racetrack with hurdles, maybe?)....? this will bring it all to a halt, because it's a collection of moments of epiphany or clarity¡ªof leveling up. :-)
Here's the post with the quote.? I went back to fix a misspelling, and while I was in there saw many things that could help in that other topic. :-)? ?But anyone, even very confident and experienced longtime unschoolers, will find inspiration in these little stories of clarity.
?
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 10:53 AM, Katie French wrote:
I hope these words from a relative newbie don¡¯t violate the spirit of the list.
Not at all, Katie.? You talked about how it can and should work well (principles), and how it is working for you, and that IS the purpose of the discussion! :-)
You shared your thoughts about the potential damage to relationships and to the learning that IS happening.? I really liked it.? Thank you.
?
Sandra
?
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
Vicki, I'm not sure if this was from the quote or your own words.? I got confused, but this can't be universally true (and it's not solidly clear):?
?
"There are now "cheat sheets" giving tips about the essay since homeschoolers are no longer allowed to enroll in "Developmental classes"?"
_________-end of quote-________
Community college policies vary widely, and some places don't even have such institutions.? Talking about school, again, though, is more likely to spook the original mom who had the question. :-)??
The idea of kids in school (or in testing situations) being required to write and essay that no one would want to read is a good thing for people with older kids to remember.? The best writing practice will be real writing, to and for real people.??
"Reports"¡ªsame.? To research something (by reading two or three things about it, probably, or by doing data collection) and then writing a report, if it's a practice report school assignment) is NOT the same as ACTUALLY reporting on something someone asked, or needs to know.? ?
"Persuasive writing" used to a practice in school (might still be), but that's what a forum like this is all about.? Make a case in a way that others will understand and think about. :-)
For young kids, it's conversational, at home, being persuasive.? More tact could be recommended.? Clearer info, if asking dad for a ride somewhere and some money. :-)??
Older kids might get into discussions (verbal or written) about movies or games or sports, and get those opportunities.
?
Sandra
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
I hope the group won¡¯t mind a response a member currently unschooling young children (oldest is six)¡ªI don¡¯t have years of experience to offer, but some real-time perspective that someone out there might be able to relate to and put to use.
For me, when that little, ¡°But what about (whatever academic ¡®subject¡¯)¡± voice speaks up, I consciously remind myself of what the opportunity costs would be of attempting to coerce my child to engage in a more schoolish way with said subject. So, more specifically, I think about how that kind of coercion would damage my relationship with my child; I think about the time it would take away from his happy pursuit of his current interests, and all the wonderful, surprising, unknown things he would *not* be learning as a result; I think about how forced exposure to a subject (or attempts to manipulate *him* into reassuring *me* that he has reached some arbitrary benchmark) would very likely taint his future, more organic engagement with books/numbers/whatever. That¡¯s a few; there are more. Thinking in terms of the costs of doing things differently than we are really brings me back to the core gut knowledge that led me to unschooling in the first place.
I hope these words from a relative newbie don¡¯t violate the spirit of the list. I am grateful beyond words for what I have learned from Sandra¡¯s archives.
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On Aug 22, 2023, at 8:57 AM, Julia Norcross <JuliaCNorcross@...> wrote:
?¡°I usually recommend is to shift the attention to creating a joyful, loving, cheerful, engaging environment at home based on hobbies, interests and what really excites the children. I also usually suggest that focussing on areas like play, food, craft, art, outings, movies, shows, play dates, gaming, music, trip to museums, parks, woods, hikes, biking, or other such non-academic pursuits takes the edge off this 'sense of being irresponsible'.¡°
I want to second this. I don¡¯t think I ever used the word irresponsible to describe what I¡¯m feeling a lot of the time but that is exactly what I am trying to move through. Focusing on all of activities you¡¯ve mentioned here helps me a lot also. Focusing on being engaged in the joy with them, as well as capitalizing on the bits of time sprinkled throughout the day where they are questioning the world around them helps me immensely to redirect those disruptive thoughts and feelings. For example, my son got stung by a wasp at the park a couple of weeks ago. It was very painful for him and he was terrified in the moment, but after the pain subsided and he knew he was going to be okay, he asked me a ton of questions about wasps. We learned about them together. While I don¡¯t recommend anyone get stung by a wasp, there are lots of these learning opportunities throughout the day that present themselves just by living our lives and changing our environment. There are many opportunities for me to lean into the learning that IS happening, vs. focusing on what they¡¯re not learning.
On Aug 22, 2023, at 12:12 AM, dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
I usually recommend is to shift the attention to creating a joyful, loving, cheerful, engaging environment at home based on hobbies, interests and what really excites the children. I also usually suggest that focussing on areas like play, food, craft, art, outings, movies, shows, play dates, gaming, music, trip to museums, parks, woods, hikes, biking, or other such non-academic pursuits takes the edge off this 'sense of being irresponsible'.
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
I agree about the school reform books being too old.? Also, men who weren't parents.? Also, all about school, and the alternatives and hopes were "change the schools."
I read Herndon and Holt and a couple of others when I was in school, before many of you were born.? When my kids were little, it did help to have the memory and knowledge of the information they brought about how exploration and following interests helps.?
When I started getting into online discussions in 1982 (when regular people could get e-mail :-) ), many were homeschooling with a curriculum for religions reasons (in the U.S.) and sometimes reading Holt could help them move away from a curriculum if it wasn't helping.? The current question is kind of about curriculum¡ªhow to stop seeing things schoolishly.
Still, what helped more, even then, was stories of children showing those ideas to be true and also workable from home¡ªto learn from all the things around, without a timetable or schedule or lessons.? ?
By the time this group was formed in 2001, there were a few thousand families sharing their thoughts, discoveries, successes and difficulties.? It was FUN to comb through all that and tweak ideas as a group.? None of the writers from the 60s and 70s knew the advantages of kids learning at home, in their own families and neighborhoods, and how an interested and involved parent could create a backdrop and a platform (or as I came to call it later "a nest") for that to gradually evolve from toddlers learning to bigger kids, and then teens.??
Many of those old discussions are gone.? This group is not.? This group is easily searchable, and many of the best parts (from this and other discussions), I've saved.? That's why I bring links¡ªto send people to some real accounts by parents at home with real unschooled kids.??
Sandra
Books like that are sometimes interesting, but as an unschooling mom in 2023, books written over sixty years ago about kids in classrooms totally different than schools today weren't what ended up helping me the most.??
I used to rail against schools? with a lot of fear and emotion, which set up a forbidden fruit type effect with my own kids, a few of which actually enjoy school a lot.? It's not good for my relationship with those kids if I'm constantly telling them what a terrible choice they're making with their life, just like it wouldn't be good for me to do that to my always unschooled 14 year old when she's on Instagram a lot.?
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:40 AM Vicki Dennis < vicki@...> wrote: My memory?was tickled and I was moved to find the book I referenced.? From an Amazon review of James Herndon's How To Survive in Your Native Land? I think I was right about Herndon.? ?Not sure if this book published 1971 or the earlier The Way It Spozed to Be detailed students were VERY literate outside of school.? ?For some reason I had implanted in my memory that he was teaching in D.C. but actually was in California.
? From Wikipedia? "Herndon's first book,?The Way It Spozed To Be?(1968), chronicles his first year teaching, in a poor, segregated junior high school in urban California. This book describes his despair at the inadequacy of the school system and his innovative efforts to teach his students to read, which led to his being fired at the end of the year for poor classroom management. Herndon's second book?How To Survive In Your Native Land?(1971) centers on Herndon's subsequent decade teaching.
?I think the?"poor classroom management" was ignoring the boring controlled word curriculum and getting the kids excited and engaged about Langston Hughes.? Admin said "those kids cannot possibly read poetry".? There "might" have been a little racism about teaching Hughes but the kids loved it and even memorized some on their own.?
The tie-in to unschooling is that these children were indeed learning outside school.? Remember John Holt started out? as a reformist . I, too, was and am a reformist but was unwilling to sacrifice my children or grandchildren as fodder for the decades it will take for change. I want decent safe schools to be available.......I just do not want compulsory attendance.?
I think both books are worth reading. To clarify why you do not want to send your young child to a brick and mortar school and to reinforce the idea that it is useful to look to the child instead of the "Scope and Sequence".? Not only should we ignore the proclamations about what a child should know or perform at age 7, we should also discount the idea that it is cruel to expose children to concepts earlier than Scope and Sequence demands.?
Vicki
Reviewed in the United States on August 19, 2018I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets. I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets.
The last sentence brings to mind the placement tests at the local community college.? The writing portion includes a multiple choice grammar, punctuation, and "which sentence or phrase is clearer or "best' ".? An essay is also? required but is graded by computer and algorithm.? Homeschoolers can dual enroll but must pass the tests to "show they can do college level work".? There are now "cheat sheets" giving tips about the essay since homeschoolers are no longer allowed to enroll in "Developmental classes" and almost all non-STEM classes require a passing combined score on the Writing portion.? ? Constant reminders that it is graded by computer graded and has a minimum word count.? ?Use big words and write long sentences!? No person is going to read so it doesn't need to attract an audience or make logical arguments.?
Vicki Years ago I either read an article or heard a lecture by a college professor who said it usually took a full semester to get students to "unlearn" the? way they had been taught "the more words the better" and to pull out the more precise writing that students had probably done years before.? ?I do not remember if he was teaching freshman English or journalism.? Or maybe it was Developmental Writing!
I LIKE books that are filled with anecdotes instead of charts and academic case studies.? I have developed (and continue to hone) the ability to "Take what you need and turn over the rest".? Sometimes I might disagree with many of the methods used?by a parent or teacher but will have a couple of AHA! moments that stay with me a long time.? One was "Don't look so much" when raising a very "busy" child.?
Vicki
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 9:29?PM Vicki Dennis < vicki@...> wrote:
?I would suggest to anonymous that the child may well "know" a lot more than parent realizes. Not to encourage testing or verbal interrogations but instead to watch what child does when "playing" or interacting?with others. Or how they express themselves if watching a movie or sporting event. There can be lots of basic math in sports!
I can't remember the book I read decades ago or author (probably Kozol or Herndon) but a teacher was shocked to finally understand that these early teens labeled as backward or deficient or "non-readers" could and did read magazines or underground newspapers.? Some even had their own enterprises where they calculated percentages with ease. It is true that population couldn't identify which side of Mississippi they lived or who wrote Scarlet Letter but they were never exposed to much besides remedial reading and mind numbing basic math because anything else would be "beyond their abilities". I think the observations in the book are still relevant even if we acknowledge that reading ? printed books is a minority endeavor. Watch your child playing video games or researching YouTube to learn whatever. Ask them to teach you about their interests (and pay attention!) instead of you deciding what and how and when they need to learn.
Vicki
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
¡°I usually recommend is to shift the attention to creating a joyful, loving, cheerful, engaging environment at home based on hobbies, interests and what really excites the children. I also usually suggest that focussing on areas like play, food, craft, art, outings, movies, shows, play dates, gaming, music, trip to museums, parks, woods, hikes, biking, or other such non-academic pursuits takes the edge off this 'sense of being irresponsible'.¡°
I want to second this. I don¡¯t think I ever used the word irresponsible to describe what I¡¯m feeling a lot of the time but that is exactly what I am trying to move through. Focusing on all of activities you¡¯ve mentioned here helps me a lot also. Focusing on being engaged in the joy with them, as well as capitalizing on the bits of time sprinkled throughout the day where they are questioning the world around them helps me immensely to redirect those disruptive thoughts and feelings. For example, my son got stung by a wasp at the park a couple of weeks ago. It was very painful for him and he was terrified in the moment, but after the pain subsided and he knew he was going to be okay, he asked me a ton of questions about wasps. We learned about them together. While I don¡¯t recommend anyone get stung by a wasp, there are lots of these learning opportunities throughout the day that present themselves just by living our lives and changing our environment. There are many opportunities for me to lean into the learning that IS happening, vs. focusing on what they¡¯re not learning.
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On Aug 22, 2023, at 12:12 AM, dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
I usually recommend is to shift the attention to creating a joyful, loving, cheerful, engaging environment at home based on hobbies, interests and what really excites the children. I also usually suggest that focussing on areas like play, food, craft, art, outings, movies, shows, play dates, gaming, music, trip to museums, parks, woods, hikes, biking, or other such non-academic pursuits takes the edge off this 'sense of being irresponsible'.
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
Books like that are sometimes interesting, but as an unschooling mom in 2023, books written over sixty years ago about kids in classrooms totally different than schools today weren't what ended up helping me the most.??
I used to rail against schools? with a lot of fear and emotion, which set up a forbidden fruit type effect with my own kids, a few of which actually enjoy school a lot.? It's not good for my relationship with those kids if I'm constantly telling them what a terrible choice they're making with their life, just like it wouldn't be good for me to do that to my always unschooled 14 year old when she's on Instagram a lot.?
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:40 AM Vicki Dennis < vicki@...> wrote: My memory?was tickled and I was moved to find the book I referenced.? From an Amazon review of James Herndon's How To Survive in Your Native Land? I think I was right about Herndon.? ?Not sure if this book published 1971 or the earlier The Way It Spozed to Be detailed students were VERY literate outside of school.? ?For some reason I had implanted in my memory that he was teaching in D.C. but actually was in California.
? From Wikipedia? "Herndon's first book,?The Way It Spozed To Be?(1968), chronicles his first year teaching, in a poor, segregated junior high school in urban California. This book describes his despair at the inadequacy of the school system and his innovative efforts to teach his students to read, which led to his being fired at the end of the year for poor classroom management. Herndon's second book?How To Survive In Your Native Land?(1971) centers on Herndon's subsequent decade teaching.
?I think the?"poor classroom management" was ignoring the boring controlled word curriculum and getting the kids excited and engaged about Langston Hughes.? Admin said "those kids cannot possibly read poetry".? There "might" have been a little racism about teaching Hughes but the kids loved it and even memorized some on their own.?
The tie-in to unschooling is that these children were indeed learning outside school.? Remember John Holt started out? as a reformist . I, too, was and am a reformist but was unwilling to sacrifice my children or grandchildren as fodder for the decades it will take for change. I want decent safe schools to be available.......I just do not want compulsory attendance.?
I think both books are worth reading. To clarify why you do not want to send your young child to a brick and mortar school and to reinforce the idea that it is useful to look to the child instead of the "Scope and Sequence".? Not only should we ignore the proclamations about what a child should know or perform at age 7, we should also discount the idea that it is cruel to expose children to concepts earlier than Scope and Sequence demands.?
Vicki
Reviewed in the United States on August 19, 2018I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets. I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets.
The last sentence brings to mind the placement tests at the local community college.? The writing portion includes a multiple choice grammar, punctuation, and "which sentence or phrase is clearer or "best' ".? An essay is also? required but is graded by computer and algorithm.? Homeschoolers can dual enroll but must pass the tests to "show they can do college level work".? There are now "cheat sheets" giving tips about the essay since homeschoolers are no longer allowed to enroll in "Developmental classes" and almost all non-STEM classes require a passing combined score on the Writing portion.? ? Constant reminders that it is graded by computer graded and has a minimum word count.? ?Use big words and write long sentences!? No person is going to read so it doesn't need to attract an audience or make logical arguments.?
Vicki Years ago I either read an article or heard a lecture by a college professor who said it usually took a full semester to get students to "unlearn" the? way they had been taught "the more words the better" and to pull out the more precise writing that students had probably done years before.? ?I do not remember if he was teaching freshman English or journalism.? Or maybe it was Developmental Writing!
I LIKE books that are filled with anecdotes instead of charts and academic case studies.? I have developed (and continue to hone) the ability to "Take what you need and turn over the rest".? Sometimes I might disagree with many of the methods used?by a parent or teacher but will have a couple of AHA! moments that stay with me a long time.? One was "Don't look so much" when raising a very "busy" child.?
Vicki
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 9:29?PM Vicki Dennis < vicki@...> wrote:
?I would suggest to anonymous that the child may well "know" a lot more than parent realizes. Not to encourage testing or verbal interrogations but instead to watch what child does when "playing" or interacting?with others. Or how they express themselves if watching a movie or sporting event. There can be lots of basic math in sports!
I can't remember the book I read decades ago or author (probably Kozol or Herndon) but a teacher was shocked to finally understand that these early teens labeled as backward or deficient or "non-readers" could and did read magazines or underground newspapers.? Some even had their own enterprises where they calculated percentages with ease. It is true that population couldn't identify which side of Mississippi they lived or who wrote Scarlet Letter but they were never exposed to much besides remedial reading and mind numbing basic math because anything else would be "beyond their abilities". I think the observations in the book are still relevant even if we acknowledge that reading ? printed books is a minority endeavor. Watch your child playing video games or researching YouTube to learn whatever. Ask them to teach you about their interests (and pay attention!) instead of you deciding what and how and when they need to learn.
Vicki
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
My memory?was tickled and I was moved to find the book I referenced.? From an Amazon review of James Herndon's How To Survive in Your Native Land? I think I was right about Herndon.? ?Not sure if this book published 1971 or the earlier The Way It Spozed to Be detailed students were VERY literate outside of school.? ?For some reason I had implanted in my memory that he was teaching in D.C. but actually was in California.
? From Wikipedia? "Herndon's first book,?The Way It Spozed To Be?(1968), chronicles his first year teaching, in a poor, segregated junior high school in urban California. This book describes his despair at the inadequacy of the school system and his innovative efforts to teach his students to read, which led to his being fired at the end of the year for poor classroom management. Herndon's second book?How To Survive In Your Native Land?(1971) centers on Herndon's subsequent decade teaching.
?I think the?"poor classroom management" was ignoring the boring controlled word curriculum and getting the kids excited and engaged about Langston Hughes.? Admin said "those kids cannot possibly read poetry".? There "might" have been a little racism about teaching Hughes but the kids loved it and even memorized some on their own.?
The tie-in to unschooling is that these children were indeed learning outside school.? Remember John Holt started out? as a reformist . I, too, was and am a reformist but was unwilling to sacrifice my children or grandchildren as fodder for the decades it will take for change. I want decent safe schools to be available.......I just do not want compulsory attendance.?
I think both books are worth reading. To clarify why you do not want to send your young child to a brick and mortar school and to reinforce the idea that it is useful to look to the child instead of the "Scope and Sequence".? Not only should we ignore the proclamations about what a child should know or perform at age 7, we should also discount the idea that it is cruel to expose children to concepts earlier than Scope and Sequence demands.?
Vicki
Reviewed in the United States on August 19, 2018I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets. I am glad to see this book still in print. I read it when I was first teaching and it had an impact on how I thought about teaching, which is why I just ordered it sent to my son, who teaches in middle- and high schools. Herndon sees his middle-school students as human beings, not dots to be organized; he's attentive to their lives outside school. I still remember his finding out that the student who was doing so poorly in math had a job scoring, at once, every lane (if memory serves) in a bowling alley. His problem wasn't math it was the teaching of math. For me, students have trouble writing essays because they are taught to write essays that no-one would ever want to read -- that is, not "essays" at all, but assessment targets.
The last sentence brings to mind the placement tests at the local community college.? The writing portion includes a multiple choice grammar, punctuation, and "which sentence or phrase is clearer or "best' ".? An essay is also? required but is graded by computer and algorithm.? Homeschoolers can dual enroll but must pass the tests to "show they can do college level work".? There are now "cheat sheets" giving tips about the essay since homeschoolers are no longer allowed to enroll in "Developmental classes" and almost all non-STEM classes require a passing combined score on the Writing portion.? ? Constant reminders that it is graded by computer graded and has a minimum word count.? ?Use big words and write long sentences!? No person is going to read so it doesn't need to attract an audience or make logical arguments.?
Vicki Years ago I either read an article or heard a lecture by a college professor who said it usually took a full semester to get students to "unlearn" the? way they had been taught "the more words the better" and to pull out the more precise writing that students had probably done years before.? ?I do not remember if he was teaching freshman English or journalism.? Or maybe it was Developmental Writing!
I LIKE books that are filled with anecdotes instead of charts and academic case studies.? I have developed (and continue to hone) the ability to "Take what you need and turn over the rest".? Sometimes I might disagree with many of the methods used?by a parent or teacher but will have a couple of AHA! moments that stay with me a long time.? One was "Don't look so much" when raising a very "busy" child.?
Vicki
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 9:29?PM Vicki Dennis < vicki@...> wrote:
?I would suggest to anonymous that the child may well "know" a lot more than parent realizes. Not to encourage testing or verbal interrogations but instead to watch what child does when "playing" or interacting?with others. Or how they express themselves if watching a movie or sporting event. There can be lots of basic math in sports!
I can't remember the book I read decades ago or author (probably Kozol or Herndon) but a teacher was shocked to finally understand that these early teens labeled as backward or deficient or "non-readers" could and did read magazines or underground newspapers.? Some even had their own enterprises where they calculated percentages with ease. It is true that population couldn't identify which side of Mississippi they lived or who wrote Scarlet Letter but they were never exposed to much besides remedial reading and mind numbing basic math because anything else would be "beyond their abilities". I think the observations in the book are still relevant even if we acknowledge that reading ? printed books is a minority endeavor. Watch your child playing video games or researching YouTube to learn whatever. Ask them to teach you about their interests (and pay attention!) instead of you deciding what and how and when they need to learn.
Vicki
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Re: The last hurdle (one person's last hurdle)
It seems interesting to me that this is described as a last hurdle, but wouldn't it be the first hurdle to unschooling??
"I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences); or knowing their basic math facts and the concepts of arithmetic:? I feel *irresponsible* not doing some things in a more "school-y" fashion."
Learning things in a "school-y fashion" does not mean that it's the best or only way to learn something.? Unschooling isn't throwing your kids out the back door alone and saying have fun, come back when you've learned something.? So yes, we as parents do need to be involved and participating, but there are lots of ways to interact with written language and basic arithmetic concepts and most of them don't look at all school-y.?
"What are some other things people have "bumped up against" and had a hard time getting around, over, or through?"
Today I noticed I was feeling resentful that the teens don't vacuum their own rooms.? I think it's because I feel like they're too old for me to just go in and move their stuff in order to vacuum under it like I do the younger kids and they don't move their own piles when I ask.? I don't want to accidentally suck something of theirs up if I try to go around small things on the floor.? Dirty floors bother me, even though I'm trying relax about it.
But this is actually a re-occuring theme for me with several different examples.? My kids get older and I have this idea about what they "should" be doing now that they're at this new age, and then I get antsy because it's not happening like I thought it would.?
"Parents are often surprised that their own peaceful parenting practices that are working GREAT can hit a bump.? Often it's when the child comes to an age or stage at which the parent had problems, or fears, or some trauma (minor or major).? Then the parental emotions are stirred up and deschooling seems (for a little bit) not to have "completely worked," but it's not that.? It's that a 30 year old mom with a 5 year old child isn't in the same place (from any measurement) as the same mom at 35 with a ten year old, or 45 and 15. "
I am very different at 36 unschooling my current five year old than I was as at 25 unschooling my first child at five years old.? And that's different than currently parenting the oldest at 16 years old.? Sometimes I find myself deschooling over the same thing multiple times, in multiple ways, for multiple kids.? Deschooling is definitely not a one and done thing.?
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Sandra Dodd
Vicki Dennis