A second interview on the podcast Cecilie and Jesper Conrad do.

Working on pages to link to, I came to something good.? ?Then I made the photos show again, and formatted it to work on a phone!??

1998 was 25 years ago.? Someone's son wanted to know the difference between a pike and a battleaxe.

I think it will work to put the whole post here, with a link to the 2009 deposit of that, which has comments.?

IT DID NOT WORK. If you got an e-mail with codey gunk in it, I'm really sorry.??

The link is?

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"1998 was 25 years ago.? Someone's son wanted to know the difference between a pike and a battleaxe..."

That person is fully grown now, and I'm quite old but I still liked the question, and was glad I happened to know.

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That will lead to the various photos, used in Just Add Light and Stir posts, and credits to the photographers, and to Holly Dodd, who put it all together.

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To those who identify as Unschoolers, or whose home-education practices could be so categorized by others, this is a formal request to?

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CEASE AND DESIST

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On July 24, 2023, beginning at 12:01 a.m. in whatever time zone you are, whether awake or asleep, you are asked to refrain from any learning, and from the facilitation of others' learning, for a period of 24 hours. (EXEMPTED:? Unschooling families resident in the State of Utah should cease and desist July 25, 2023, or sometime.)

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This message is delivered out into places unschoolers might see it.? If you have read this far, you are in receipt of the letter.? Tag, no backsies.? Binding, blinding information.

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Having taken such actions and made such decisions that learning "just happens" in your home and in your life, it is likely that you are living without taking a break from that learning.? Lest you and your children get so tired of learning that school starts to look like restful activity, give it a break.

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Should you fail to follow this directive, or should your efforts prove fruitless, proceed with fruitier activities thereafter.? No further action will be necessary, although you might want to share the story of your unintentional learning, and the time (on that date), of your first failure to learn nothing.

Clerk to the Secretary of the Office of Maintenance and Upholdence of Learn Nothing Day

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I have often wished for more to be written about unschooling teens, especially at the beginning.

What I have about teens is about pre-covid teens, many of whom knew other unschoolers through local groups and conferences.? There are good things to read, but I know some families have none of that, and that people (including myself) are still a bit dazed and disoriented by the past few years.

For beginning unschooling with kids who are a bit older, there are these:

That's not my writing, but it's several unschoolers (all of whom I know in person) who have had kids grow into and through their teen years, at home.

There are (always) links to similar topics, for those who want more. :-)

Sandra

Some of this sounds too scripted and wordy.? It's unlikely that boys, especially, will be that verbal when it's a choice between an interesting game and a mom who's talking too much.

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I responded at length one day, when the question was new, but somehow I failed to send it.? I'm very sorry!!??
Luckily, others generously? jumped in to help, too.

I do remember that I brought a link to "Leaning on a Truck," which is about communicating side-by-side, sometimes.

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Everything changes as kids mature.? They mature gradually, so things change gradually.? ?Parents should take some time to read about child development so they're not surprised, and so that they're not expecting more than a child's capability and maturity will allow.? That happens often with very small children.? An adult will say "He totally understands that..." or "I explained that..."? when the parent isn't accepting that a toddler or young child doesn't have the ability to plan ahead, or to make promises, or to be analytical in ways he will be in later years, at some point.? I have a few things on my site, but it's not everything.? Still, it won't hurt to get some of the ideas to compare to what you already know, or to other people's "stages."

Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development

That page has links to other sorts of ways to look at what kids know, and how to clear them to learn more easily.

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I said some other things that others have covered, I think. :-)

Sorry it was lost.

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Sandra

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Can I suggest that when you do your follow up, you include the original concept of strewing? I just listened to episode 23 of this podcast, which for the main part was lovely, but Summer Jean was very disparaging about 'strewing', of which she seemed to have a distorted understanding. The Conrads appeared to have a similar view of it.

The second interview has happened.? It should be published around July 20, before Learn Nothing Day. :-)

They're planning a third one, so I will try to bring that up.? :-)

The Conrads are living out of a camper, so they're doing that sort of strewing—towns and cities and friends' houses all over Europe. :-)??

People have been disparaging of strewing probably since the first year I used the term.? That's a lot of complaints, over the years.? My daughter/youngest is in her 30s now.? She goes by Bitsy, out and about, and rarely by Holly.? She meets unschoolers once in a while but "Bitsy" doesn't trigger any connection for them.??

A couple of times people have explained something to her, about unschooling, and she just listens.? Once it was about strewing. :-)? It amuses her.? Sometimes she lets them know who she is, but not always.??

I could have said "I expose them to lots of things," but they were little when I wrote it, and bringing something home, for them to discover and wonder and ask about,? is a big deal when the kids are small.? It can be a fun big deal when they're grown.? When I visited Schuyler Waynforth in Australia, she had collected things for weeks before, and they were on the counter in her kitchen.? Wonderful big mysterious seed pods and and stuff like that.? Somewhere I have a photo.....? ? It was things I would not be allowed to take out of the country, but that were very fun to touch in the presence of people who knew what they were.

They were strewing for me, and it was wonderful. :-)

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Sandra

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"Now he doesn't like when I ask about his games or ask to see his videos."

Is this true, have you asked him to clarify? Not in the moment, but in a quieter moment like a car ride or bumping into him in the kitchen.

A *neutral*, not hurt-feelings-needy, simple "Hey, can I ask you a question? I have this idea that you don't like when I ask you about your games anymore, is that accurate?" could really help.

This is new about having a tween, especially an always unschooled one. Ask him what he likes and doesn't like. You'll probably find that you're asking at the wrong time or in the wrong way, as others have suggested. And as Karen described, if you're not a gamer but were interested in games because you're interested in *him*, then find ways to make that clear. I've built an identity with my kiddo as someone who keeps tabs on different areas of his life so that we can converse lightly about them, but he knows that he doesn't see me watching Drew Gooden videos on my lunch break when he's not around...so he likes when I demonstrate my interest, but not to the point where I'm inauthentic. This is a nuance he didn't have as a younger unschooler.?

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"I feel like I am being shut out of an important part of his life."

"Feel like" is a phrase I've mostly removed from my vocabulary. We say, "I feel like" but then we refer to a *thought* rather than a feeling or emotion. It creates muddy thinking. It can indicate that we're unclear and need help figuring out what's going on inside, but it can also indicate that we're holding on tightly to an idea and we're not open to debating it.?

So, *are* you being shut out of his life?

Or...

Do you have an *emotion to process* around becoming less welcome into his gaming life now that he's more grown up??

Often, feelings derive from thoughts. It's a good practice to treat *feelings (mad, sad, glad, scared, ashamed)* as true,

while

evaluating the *thought causing that feeling* with skepticism.

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Figure out if the thought is true -- do you have evidence for it (something that could be observed by a video camera or used as evidence in a courtroom)?

If no, then you're dealing with your story, not the truth.

Once you separate what's true from your story, you now have the power to re-author that story and your feelings can shift on their own.

Or, you might notice that you *do* need to take action. It could be, "I feel sad because it's time to let go of the sparkle of unschooling during childhood years." Maybe you journal, or print some photos to stick on the fridge or maybe you sit and brainstorm cool new ways to bring the sparkle, like playing your own video game in a common area and asking him to help you with it. I play Wordle every day, but if my kiddo is around I ask him for a 5 letter word to start me off.

(Just make sure that if you decide to take action, that action clearly asks for his help but keeps the ownership of feelings on you. 12 is too early, but now that I have an older teen, I can say things like, "Hey, I felt sad when you said, 'What are you still doing here?' Next time, would you try, 'Mom, did you need something else? I need to focus on my game right now' -- would that work for you?" As long as he has room to say, "Nope, I probably won't remember to do that if I'm too focused on my game, so I prefer if you just leave after you drop off food.")?

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"Is this normal as kids get older and want more independence?"

In our house, age 12-13 was not smooth, relationship-wise, for a number of reason that have since settled down. This shocked me, because I thought the sweetness of unschooling life would last forever -- I guess I thought I was "doing it right" and so I'd get to keep it! At 15, our life together is much smoother, but I believe it's because I was active in learning how to unschool with a teenager.?

Around 13 1/2, I started noticing that my go-to unschooling advice used to be, "Get closer to your kid" and that that was suddenly bugging my kid! After 8 years of building the habit of getting closer, I was on auto-pilot -- it came off as checked-out, rude, and needy. What helped me most was doing the opposite: "Step back and watch. Trust your unschooling principles and the time you've put in. Trust your connection is still strong, just a little more distance between the points. Trust your kid."

Cultivating that new habit for a year and a half brought our relationship to a new place, where I grew enough that he could enjoy time with me again.?I needed to stop trying to DO something in response to everything my kid was experiencing. I even noticed the best thing I could do was to NOT believe every little feeling he had and jump to fixing the environment to fix his feelings (this was helpful to build trust when he was young, but insulting to him once he was old enough and had the ability to do those things for himself).

It was like an unschooling Backwards Day: I could witness his emotions, but I had to slow my roll when it came to action. I learned to trust him to be in charge of them or to ask for what he needed. It wasn't easy, after all those years of learning to react quickly to his needs!

So, yes, it's normal that your kiddo is growing and therefore takes up more space. His personal bubble has expanded, and you need permission to enter it, where before your bubbles overlapped.?

With regard to independence, I don't think they want much of that yet. I think "individuation" is a better description of what they want (though too psychological a term for unschoolers! ), and privacy comes with that. Our kids expect us to respect them as their own person, because we always have, but now that "own person" wants a little less of their parent! A lot of what I did as an unschooling parent of a 6-12yo was manipulating my son's environment so it accommodated his needs and wants (better than asking him to shapeshift to the normal, adult-centric, schoolish environment). Once we got to 13 1/2, he had years of witness and practice, and he wanted to be in charge of adjusting *his own* environment. My role became more passive -- essentially it was to trust him to ask me when he needed my support or another level of power in order to accomplish those adjustments, and only acting when invited.

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"How do I keep communication open if he doesn't want to talk about his passions?"

Well, what other ways do you have to communicate, besides talking? During that transition time, 12 to 13 1/2, I reverted to the most basic unschooling tactics: food, blankets, pillows, plugging in devices, and affectionate-but-not-intrusive shoulder squeezes and head rubs.?

Another piece of advice that really helped me was an unschooling mom suggesting, "Find reasons to invite yourself into their space."

We put an awesome tv in his room and have room for a couch there, so I'd ask if we could have family movie night in his room. I'd make a big deal about "We're going to Sky's house for movie night! I'll bring the popcorn! I want to sit in the middle!" etc. I'd ask him to cast certain games to the tv so I could watch without being over his shoulder (Red Dead, Snow Runner) -- not the games that he was most into that required his concentration. We played The Walking Dead story mode games together and laughed when my choices had poor consequences and his kept his character alive longer.?

The gaming questions I ask now are, "What game are you playing these days?" or "What rank are you in your game, are you still silver?" or "Who've you been playing with lately?" They're open-ended enough to start a conversation but specific enough to be easily answered and not patronizing.?

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"I have fears too about it. Open communication while online provides a lot of safety. He could be a target of trolling, grooming, bullying etc. and I wouldn't be allowed in to help him navigate it."

Is it true that "open communication while online provides a lot of safety"? What's meant by "open communication" and what's meant by "a lot of safety"??

When my kiddo was little, he had Skype calls blasting through the speakers of a computer in a central location. He was playing with friends we knew, and I could not only hear every interaction, but I had a text thread of other moms who were also actively parenting through intense play. But that didn't protect anyone from having their Minecraft creations griefed or having friends gang up on each other to "kill" a teammate. Our kids weren't safe from bullying or trolling, but they had us there to empathize and strategize, and they saw each other in real life. This all built resilience -- but not safety.

Chat and headphones were a natural progression and an integral part of gaming; once that happened it mattered a lot less that I was close by. I could only help resolve an issue if I was invited in to help.?"Open communication" to my kid feels like me eavesdropping on his play. He doesn't like that.

With regard to grooming: the best defense you have against this is not the oversight or gaze of knowing everything your kid is doing online, but your commitment to keeping your relationship with him central to your decisions. My kiddo has grown up online and knows the best practices, not from having me teach him. So, he's insulted if we try to tell him what to do. I just ask him about these topics and his knowledge and experiences with them, or better yet I listen when other adults with more conventional parenting practices ask him.

"I wouldn't be allowed in to help him navigate it." It's ok to let him know that you'll step in if physical safety or grooming were to become a problem -- while consent is preferred, "allowing" isn't his option. But more than likely, it won't become an issue and you'll be surprised that he knows a lot more than you.?

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I have often wished for more to be written about unschooling teens, especially at the beginning. This is really beautiful, Dola:

"While they explored stuff I did not always know of, I worked on my doubts and fears and building trust muscles inside me."

"I have fears too about it."

Another thought for you or anyone reading...

If you are asking your son questions out of fear, that could be a problem.? Essentially, by doing this, you are asking *him* to alleviate your fears instead of showing honest interest in what he's doing.? That wouldn't feel good to anyone.? It would be annoying and disingenuous.?

Find things about what he's doing interesting enough to ask real questions about it.? Show sincere interest over fearful probing.? ?

Karen James

This is what I can do from home!??

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I was recently Interviewed.??I hope It's fun. I'm announcing It before I've listened. I was having a good time with Cecilie and Jesper.