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--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "LauraM" <la_tree@...> wrote:

I'm looking for some insight and advice here please on the subject of Reading, with regard to the concept of 'reading in their own time'. The situation is thus: my son who just turned 12 has wanted to read and attempted to sporadically for some time.<

Laura, are you still willing for him to take his time to learn to read? I hear that he would like to and supporting that is great, but there are some kids who just take that extra bit of time to pull things together. If you are willing to extend the trust you've shown thus far and not worry about it (which can be contagious), then perhaps he'll be able to relax into it when he's ready.

I'm also curious how long he's been unschooling (as you mention he had trouble reading at school, so reading may still have some emotional landmines for him).

I've begun looking into testing for auditory processing because he seems to have a few of the signs for that 'learning gate' ( as per a link on Hslda). <

I have a background in Special Ed and I'm wondering why it is you think he has an auditory processing issue? Does he have any oral/aural language issues? Don't answer here - perhaps mull it over yourself. Usually kids with auditory processing issues have trouble with receptive listening, not reading (although the phoneme awareness thing can be a factor). Also, in my honest and humble opinion, there's a lot of snake oil out there in terms of treating auditory processing. Your best bet is a Speech and Language Pathologist who will assess and make recommendations, if you think that's warranted. I've looked at the HSLDA page and I think that many of their symptoms are far too global - I can see that a lot of "false positive" self-diagnoses could result. (Link for anyone else who wants to look at it: ).

There are people in the world with a true, brain-based dyslexia (which can be determined by a proper psychoeducational assessment administered by a registered psychologist -- so, not an inexpensive option and one that can be highly stressful for kids). Just like everybody else, they have to make sense of reading in their own way. I've seen parents spend oodles of money for interventions that really didn't speed up the process that much (although some may disagree with me). And it is possible that his learning-to-read pace is still developmental/emotional for your son. If so, simply waiting, if *he* is cool with that, won't hurt.

A friend of mine told me a story about one of her adult friends who has severe dyslexia: he can read, but it took him a while to sort it out (even when in school) and it took focus/desire on his part to put it together. He doesn't read for pleasure but he can certainly make his way through the world.

BTW, I can't say enough about quality graphic novels for kids who are just on the cusp of reading. If he wants to read, strew these around and the pictorial clues may be helpful and lessen any frustration he may be feeling (if he is feeling any frustration).

- Rebecca

===I can't think of any unpleasant thing he's done

as a result of being influenced by TV. He's never beaten up other kids,
stolen anything, wrecked the car or knocked over a convenience store.
Doesn't lie, drink or smoke, doesn't take drugs, hasn't joined a gang. He
hasn't damaged other people's property, kicked a dog, lit a cat on fire.===

I dare say he isn't running around looking for living rooms in which the residents are having sex either.

I like how we are all "viewers" in the OP's lexicon, rather than "readers" of Sandra's site. Now that's the inisidious influence of TV.

Sandra pro-TV? The writer hasn't met me.

Robyn L. Coburn

===All the while i'm thinking, " well, as an unschooler he will get it when his brain develops to that place." I assisted him when he asked or when he was interested because many times, while he claimed to want to read, he just didnt try ===

Laura, can you describe what assisting him looks like? What would him "trying" have looked like to you?

=== I've begun looking into testing for auditory processing because he seems to have a few of the signs for that 'learning gate' ( as per a link on Hslda). =====

Is he able to understand and follow a story or instructions that are read aloud to him?

Is he able to follow spoken conversations like on tv or in movies?

What kinds of materials are available to him for reading? Are they tied to his interests and reflect his spoken vocabulary level? I'm thinking of the many, many stories of kids learning to read from using their gaming manuals.

"Learning gate"? What, is that another phrase for "learning window" only with more swing?? HSLDA is not particularly well known as an unschooling friendly organization. Perhaps information from their site is less relevant to the practice of unschooling than the experiences of actual unschoolers.

I'm just flying in for a quick visit - but FWIW I don't think 12 is exceedingly late to read outside of a school situation, especially for a busy and engaged kid.

Jayn, now 10, has learnt to read so gradually that there was never a moment when I saw any kind of pre-reading readiness event cluster, if that is what characterizes a "learning gate". She just slowly got better at it and needed less help, in many small jumps. They were jumps too. It started with recognizing logos and signs, like store names, when she was a toddler, and now she is laboriously writing her own stories out, instead of asking me to type them.

It's not quite automatic yet. She still has to direct her attention to her decoding process. Funny story - a couple of months ago she got irritated that I was reading in bed, because I had told her I was tired and going to bed instead of playing any longer. "I thought you were too tired". She still finds reading hard work, so she didn't realize that it was relaxing and easy for me. I had to think about it to understand what was upsetting her.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

***Now, here we are and he is showing much more interest in reading so we sit and help him. The thing is he seems to really stuggle with reading over and over again and when i've read so many stories about unschoolers who begin getting it and take off seemingly overnight i have to wonder.***

What kinds of things are you doing to help him read? It sounds like you are helping him with some sort of reading program or workbooks or such. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way you've described it caused me to think that.

My oldest started really reading at about the age of 11. Before that time, everything she did led up to that point. When she played games online or on the PS2 or her DS, or gameboy for that matter, she would ask what something said and we'd tell her. It was that simple. When she wanted to spell something we'd spell it for her. Over time of doing that, and reading aloud to her and listening to books on tape and on cd, receiving b-day cards with notes, and letters from friends, and looking up things online, she eventually knew enough words to be able to string them together.

We were just talking about this last night. Margaux, currently 8, has been playing hang man with anyone who is willing and able. She likes 4 letter words right now (and yes, some of "those" words get into the mix). Last night I held the word "eyes" while she guessed. She had every letter but the "s" and she still didn't get it. Chamille, currently 15, was sitting there next to her at the table trying to give her hints and clues. Then she said, "Margaux that's such and easy word, how come you didn't get that one?" She really didn't understand how that was a hard word. So, we all talked about phonics and the crazy way in which the English language doesn't follow phonics very easily. The word "eyes" was just one of many examples.

Chamille didn't know what phonics was, so I explained it to her and she said, "oh, that never made sense to me." I told her that I knew that and I explained to her how I saw how she learned how to read, and how she would ask what a word was and then she'd rarely ask about that word ever again because once she knew it, she knew it, and eventually she knew enough to read. She confirmed that to be true and said that she is still like that with new words, once she sees it and knows it, she knows it for good. (she rarely misspells a word too, except the few that are the same but spelled different based on context and meaning, but even those ones she's really getting better with) Then, since Margaux was there listening in on all of it, we talked about phonics a bit, because Margaux really DOES get the whole sounding out of words and figuring out what a word is, by the sounds the letters make. The word "eyes" doesn't sound at all like it's spelled and we
talked about that, and I admitted to giving her that word on purpose to throw her a doozy which also had the letter "y", which is a letter that's way down the list in a game of hang man.

So, before going to some specialist, think about how your son IS reading and understanding the written word. If you can figure that out, you'll have a much bigger piece of the puzzle to be able to help him in a way that really does work for him. Do you play word games at all? Hang man is really pretty fun, so is Wheel of Fortune, which to me is a version of hang man done all with pizzazz and money. We have lots of alphabet letters on our fridge that we play word games with, nothing formal, just messing around stuff. When I realized that Chamille learned words when she saw them and connected what the word was, I started putting labels on all kinds of things all over the house just for fun. We printed out all kinds of neat sayings too, to hang up on walls, and that was mostly her doing from finding things online that were silly or interesting. Margaux has also really enjoyed board games like clue where you need to at least recognize a bit of the
written words to get it, well, unless of course you have a child with really excellent memory. Chamille used to win Clue all the time before she could read and she never marked anything down on her paper, she just kept a log of it in her head as she found clues.

If he's 12, does he do online chats or gaming chats? Does he have a cell phone to text with? Those are really great ways to learn how to communicate with written word, even with shortcuts. If not, what DOES he like and perhaps others can show you how reading is and can be a part of that?

I'm looking for some insight and advice here please on the subject of Reading, with regard to the concept of 'reading in their own time'. The situation is thus: my son who just turned 12 has wanted to read and attempted to sporadically for some time. All the while i'm thinking, " well, as an unschooler he will get it when his brain develops to that place." I assisted him when he asked or when he was interested because many times, while he claimed to want to read, he just didnt try and i basically felt it was either because before we came to homeschooling he struggled in school with reading and/or he was always busier with some other activity.

Now, here we are and he is showing much more interest in reading so we sit and help him. The thing is he seems to really stuggle with reading over and over again and when i've read so many stories about unschoolers who begin getting it and take off seemingly overnight i have to wonder. I've begun looking into testing for auditory processing because he seems to have a few of the signs for that 'learning gate' ( as per a link on Hslda).
So far it proves to be quite expensive to just have the test but luckily my insurance will cover a portion of therapy if we choose it.

Does anyone have any experience, links, or knowledge of testing That doesn't cost $500?
Thank you
Laura In Pa

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "d.lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:

*** I could point out plenty of things they did as a result of
watching tv.***

Why so eager to find rotten things festering inside other people?

Dylan achieved the rank of brown belt in Karate *and* Tae Kwon Do ; Five
years of study and hard work and he got interested in martial arts from
watching old Japanese movies. He saw those movies on TV because, well,
they're old, and not shown in theaters (at least not around here) anymore.

He's learning Italian and he got interested in that from watching Italian TV
on the web and from watching Italian horror movies on TV. (same deal, not
shown in theaters around here.)

He got interested in digital music from music he first heard on Television
and
now owns three synthesizers and plays very well, has learned a bunch about
electronics.

He got interested in playing the organ from watching a movie on TV, "The
Abominable Dr. Phibes." <g>
He now plays the organ really well, no lessons, just plenty of good Phibes.
(I make myself sick)

As a direct result of watching TV he learned how to use an old 16mm camera
and to make stop motion films. He has a better camera today and is still
making videos and taking really beautiful photographs.

As a result of watching TV he's written several stories and screen plays.

I can't begin to count the number of books he's read because he first saw
the story on TV on some old Twilight Zone episode or saw a movie based on a
short story or novel. Authors like Richard Matheson, August Derleth, H.P.
Lovecraft, Henry James...

I have, a couple different times, tried to write all the things Dylan has
learned as a result of watching TV. I haven't been able to finish. There's
just too much.

Deb Lewis

My daughter's degree in Applied Science in Forensics came directly from her being a fan of CSI.

My son and I get most of our "science education" from Mythbusters. In fact, I saw a Facebook group a few days ago called something like "I learn more from Mythbusters than I do from my science classes".

I know quite a lot these days about how the fashion industry works thanks to Project Runway. And how the restaurant industry works thanks to The Restaurant.

Another show my son and I find fascinating is Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs. We've learned a ton of real life stuff from that.

My list would be a fairly long one too.

Bob

but if he turned off the tv or took out Lego I turned off the tv.<<<

One of our favorite things to do together is play with the Legos
and/or talking while (sorta) watching tv. Sometimes Karl pauses his
show in order to play with his toys or get something to eat or go
outside for some sun, pet the cats, check the mail (it's been raining
the last 2 days, so... we await the sun's shining).

***we walk by something and we try it and then we find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...***

I was thinking along similar lines the other day. I have 2 kids really far apart in age. When my oldest was 5, then 6, then 7, etc., I did soooo much with her. I went out of my way to find cool activities to be a part of, classes to join, parks to play at, museums to visit, plays to attend. We were really active. I counted everything as part of our homeschooling. I chose lots of activities knowing that it could be educational and fun.

When Margaux was born, everything slowed way down because Margaux was such an intense baby and cried all the time and made it nearly impossible to do many of those activities that we were used to doing. We still did stuff, but my focus changed a lot. Since she wouldn't sleep unless she was in my arms, I spent many hours online reading as much as I possibly could about unschooling. I read there before she was born too, but it was here and there inbetween our outings and adventures.

Chamille grew older, her interests narrowed and Margaux wanted to be at home almost always. Somewhere along the way I stopped focusing on doing stuff and "enriching" the lives of my kids with tons of activities. The difference is that we stopped to smell the roses. Rather than searching out tons of stuff to do, we've found what's right here in front of us, which was in front of us all along. Life became simpler in some ways, and in another way it became more intense. We stop and check out the thermostat and see how the furnace works, we take the time to measure things and read things and make things and talk about things and watch things together. It's not that we didn't do those things before, it's that those things were more peripheral and now they are more central.

So, maybe instead of finding ways to enhance her brain and her potential, stop and smell the roses and delve into what is right in front of you and let that be your place of expansion, and KNOW that through that there would be no way to NOT enhance her brain and her potential.

***I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention!***


I see this all the time. Even if a parent is giving their attention to the child, sometimes it's the wrong kind of attention, or there's so much other stuff between them, there's a disconnect.

It seems especially true for parents with young children. If someone isn't going to parent traditionally, what they replace it with can be confusing. There are all these layers of unexamined beliefs that need to be peeled back to get a clear image of their child right there in front of them. Some of those layers include beliefs about food control or media control or plastic toys or environmental issues. What it always comes down to for me, is if I'm looking directly at my child both literally and figuratively, there is no way to avoid knowing what it is that my child wants without all that other stuff getting in the way. I can rationalize, in my own thinking, why *I* wouldn't do "abc" or why *I* wouldn't purchase "xyz", and I could even explain that to my child, BUT it won't change the fact that in that moment, in my own thoughts, other ideas are standing before my child and what their direct needs and wants are.

It's easy to see that grounding a child from tv because they didn't clean their room, can cause an adversarial relationship, since one has nothing to do with the other, and it's CLEARLY parental control and manipulation over a child. It's way more difficult for a parent to see that telling a child that they can't have that cute stuffed animal because it's "made in China", is still control and manipulation over a child. That's where another philosophy overrides another.

If a parent can relax and know that the world is good and that stuffed animals, no matter where they come from, are one step towards happiness, and a happy child is one step towards a happier and better world, then they can happily give a child a stuffed animal without feeling guilt about where and how that item is made. If that particular issue is big for that parent, in their free moments, they can spend time writing to people and furthering their cause to make changes. If they're happy and optimistic about that, then kids may eventually adopt that same spirit. Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the opposite.

Sandra asked: <<Clarify, please: -=-31/2-4 years of age-=>>

3.5 was what I meant. Before that he didn't care to watch for too long. I
watched with him so I was disappointed on occasion;)

but if he turned off the tv or took out Lego I turned off the tv.

But Rowan was really fascinated by the converter before the tv and Crispin
loves dvds. Other mothers who admired Rowan's math skills were
disappointed to learn it was changing channels with a remote, which really
inspired him to master numbers. They controlled the remote. We just got a
family package. I think I wrote about that before on this list...

Marina

On 22 March 2010 12:26, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:

i misread that at first too - i think it means 3.5 to 4


----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: AlwaysLearning@... <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] attack and parry, for your amusement

Clarify, please: -=-31/2-4 years of age-=-



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--
Rent our cottage:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-=-Since this is an unschooling list I felt pretty safe with the
school is a myth idea....-=-

It's an unschooling list, but it's for discussing what helps people
understand unschooling. And clarity and truth are more valuable than
rhetoric here.

Sandra

-=-For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our
expectation

-=-If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then
we're on the wrong path.

-=-If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in
a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.-=-

That's too strongly stated for my tastes.
Sometimes people (children or adults) need specific information for a
particular purpose.
Some objects and information ARE for specific purposes.

Sandra

Dens of iniquity. (do wolves and bears have dens of iniquity? I bet badgers
do...they hunker and watch tv.)

Deb Lewis

And weasels too. I've always limited my kids exposure to weasels for this very reason.

Joanna

-=-Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests.-=-

I don't understand this statement. What we ARE "supposed" to do as unschoolers is to help our kids develop their deepest interests. Who is saying that that ISN'T what we're supposed to do--you, or someone that doesn't understand unschooling? That thought is at the very core of unschooling, so for "people" to say that means that they have completely missed the boat.

-=-I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" -=-

You've gone on as though the original premise is true--that we aren't supposed to help them... The whole point is to ALLOW for potential. That's why we find out what they are interested in instead of bringing our own agenda to their learning.

-=-we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)-=-

Right--but someone might be raising a potential scientist, artist, musician or car mechanic, because that is where their child's interests lay--and then they WOULD by trying to do that. There seem to be a lot of ethical limits in your thinking about unschooling.

-=-Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!-=-

I agree completely. The idea of teaching "mindfulness" to a child is a twisting and a complication of the point of the whole thing! The more I think about it, the more it bothers me--as if we adults have discovered some really great thing that can "improve" on childhood. I think I trust millions of years of evolution, thank you very much! Next there will be medications that help children to be more "mindful." Or a tea they can drink.

Joanna

I hear you (choice between school and the streets), a question I've thought about since I was a teenager, and at that time I thought more <schooled> education was the answer. But I don't think anything has changed in all those years, so I no longer believe that.

Not simple dilemma.

I was also drawn to your comment: "who honestly believe with all their hearts, that a decent education would have changed their destiny". So it's the belief that they missed out on something that creates the hopelessness. What if they believed they didn't miss out on anything? Sadly I think this recession is bringing everybody into closer alignment - the guy with the degree is just as miserable as the guy without one.

Until we can figure out how to make a happy life for ourselves (rather than relying on someone else to create it for us based on some external set of rules and rewards), we will be stuck.

I wanted to share this:

Kind of interesting that we just brought up these issues - pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

Since this is an unschooling list I felt pretty safe with the school is a myth idea....

***I don't see how, without the influence of television, any person would get any bad ideas.***

The devil.
Dime novels.
Penny dreadfuls.
Dancing.
Houses of ill repute.
Dens of iniquity. (do wolves and bears have dens of iniquity? I bet badgers do...they hunker and watch tv.)

Deb Lewis

-=-I tried the limitation/value approach with the TV years ago because
I was finding it a major means of procrastination for myself --=-

Before we ever had kids, Keith and I used to get TV Guide and the
local PBS magazine so that we could plan in advance what we were going
to watch on TV. We didn't just turn it on and "surf." It wasn't "a
rule," it just made sense because we had a lot of hobbies and meetings
and singing practices we wanted to plan around, but VCRs weren't
available in homes yet, so if we missed something, it was missed.

But that developed into a "read first and then turn it on" practice
between the two of us. And when the kids came along and we did have a
VCR and some videos for them, and the ability to rent others, they
wouldn't just turn it on either. They would ask what was on, or ask
to watch a certain video, or I might recommend something. Kirby
learned to tell time because of shows he liked to watch.

It wasn't a big deal at all. Anytime someone wanted to watch
something the answer was going to be yes. We didn't leave it on for
background noise, though. We still don't.

Sandra

i misread that at first too - i think it means 3.5 to 4

Clarify, please: -=-31/2-4 years of age-=-

-=- I can't think of any unpleasant thing he's done
as a result of being influenced by TV. He's never beaten up other kids,
stolen anything, wrecked the car or knocked over a convenience store.
Doesn't lie, drink or smoke, doesn't take drugs, hasn't joined a gang.
He
hasn't damaged other people's property, kicked a dog, lit a cat on
fire.-=

In every single case of any human having done any of those things
since television was invented, UNIVERSALLY the world would have been a
better place had that child been watching television at that moment
instead of damaging life and property.

Television would have saved MANY young people from the justice
system. It still could. Television can save all juvenile delinquents
if their parents will just MAKE THEM WATCH TELEVISION!!!

For those who stole, lied, drank, smoked, did opium, joined gangs,
kicked dogs before 1950.... wait. Are we sure any of those things
happened before television was invented? I don't see how, without the
influence of television, any person would get any bad ideas.

Sandra