personal learning (was Re: Today the rent was due.)
On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 03:11 PM, Katie Robles wrote:
She told them she learned spelling from the auto-suggest feature in Roblox chats. ;) I
I love those kinds of stories, mostly because of the children seeing their own learning, and knowing that THEY did that.? Maybe with a game, or a toy, or a little brainstorm about some similarities or patterns, but it's their personal way in to knowledge or abilities that others came in to differently. :-)
Holly learned to read at 11,? so her vocabulary was already big.? She saw blends, early, when she was looking around, and so words like "outhouse"? and "sweetheart" looked to her not like compound words, but like something unrecognizable with a "th" in the middle. :-)? It didn't frustrate her.? She had fun with it.??
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Sandra
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Re: Today the rent was due.
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 07:34 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
do feel free to post in this group so it's not as quiet. :-)
Two of my kids are in school by their choice, and my ten year old was asked today by a friend what she learned homeschooling.? She told them she learned spelling from the auto-suggest feature in Roblox chats. ;)? She also mentioned to me earlier this week that she feels like she already knows how to multiple fractions, even though she's never "done" it before.?? This year is really different for our family with two kids unschooling, two in school, and two not-school age kids.
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I've paid the cost of this group, but I invite you to assist me if you're willing.??
For $220 a year, we have a better deal than we had at Yahoogroups.
It's also better than if we had a new account here; they would charge us more than that because of the number of subscribers.? We have a legacy account.
While it's true that the group has been quiet, it is still hosting the storage of over twenty years now of life-changing and unschooling-polishing discussions, to which many links lead.? From topic pages on my website, and from "Just Add Light and Stir" posts, readers are directed to these archives frequently.? I'm glad to have them.??
My website, SandraDodd.com, is about $100 a year (less than it used to be, thanks to Vlad's clever knowledge and abilities).? There are a few other smaller expenses, and that's all these days!??
Best wishes to all of you, and do feel free to post in this group so it's not as quiet. :-)
Sandra
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Renee Cabatic, ideas you can use!
I've worked up a page with links to things Renee Cabatic has written, thought up, done, photographed...
Her kids are recently grown up.? Her contributions to the shared pool of unschooling ideas and experiences has been smooth, rich and ongoing,?
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Please take some time to explore there, and if you have some favorite Renee input, or a quote, or link, please comment here and I'll try to add it.
Unrelated to the whole Renee page (lined below the image), I just came across a Halloween idea of hers, Just in time.??
Renee's idea, arrangement, and photo:
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That new page:
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The Dread Pirate Whatever...
2011, on Always Learning....? ?The comments are what I'm really bringing, and they will be below.
I quoted this, by Jenny Cyphers:
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One of the very important aspects of unschooling that is solely on the parents, is to create a happy learning environment. Kids don't learn nearly as well when they aren't happy.?
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It doesn't mean that every person needs to be happy at every moment of every day, it means that things that create happy momentum should be paramount from day to day.
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If going to concerts with friends is something that creates happiness, do more of that. If staying at home without friends creates unhappiness, do less of that. If you want to unschool well, make your lives as happy as possible, make home a happy place, make food and grocery shopping and everything in between something that is happy.
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An uncredited comment came:
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Unknown? May 16, 2011 at 5:22 AM
...sounds fabulous...?how to make grocery shopping and the dreaded cleaning of the house happy things. Definitely something to contemplate.
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Sandra DoddMay 16, 2011 at 11:34 AM
Don't call it "the dreaded" and then stop dreading it. :-)?
http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift
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AND I COMMENTED AGAIN TODAY:
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Sandra DoddSeptember 24, 2022 at 9:04 PM
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??(That link lost its clickability, and as years have passed, I can add another link, too.)??
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By thinking of housework as "the dreaded..." there was a layer of doom to remove before the mom could see clearly what Jenny had written, perhaps.??
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And in 2011, I didn't have my collection of, and clarity around, the damage of negative terminology, and of adversarial models of everyday doings.
https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/05/happy-momentum.html
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When I had teens, and "how they were raised"
Marty was fifteen, when I wrote this.? It was an e-mail to our "old next-door neighbor" (who still lives there now, and Marty lives in the house in the story).? We had rented our older, smaller house, to a friend, Mike, who was in his 30s.? In the Society for Creative Anachronism, he had been my husband's squire, so there was a relationship and we rented him that house cheap, and often he paid it off in labor, repairs, or remodelling.? So Mo was his next-door-neighbor (Mike's) and had known Marty since he was three.
In the small workshop in back, Mike was making leather boots and leather pouches for medieval re-creationists, not just our club.? He did some fancy things for a tv commercial and for a re-enactment/documentary on The Mary Rose, a ship that had been recently discovered and raised... anyway.
Mike had hired three teens to work for him, doing long seams and less technical parts.? Two had quit and that left Marty working alone, without so much to learn.?
The story picks up there, and the main part I wanted to share, I will put in boldface.? It was all said jokingly, conversationally.??
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[From an e-mail to Mo Palmer October 29, 2005]
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Marty quit his job.? He told Mike on Thursday (10/27/05) that he wanted to finish the work that was there and then quit.? He said Mike did his "depressed thing," but otherwise was fine with it.? Earlier in the week Marty had talked to me about what two weeks' notice meant and how it would work with a four-day-a-week job, and I told him the tradition, but this isn't that formal a job.? He talked about how he might quit, and said he might tell Mike he'd stay until Mike found someone else.? I said don't do that!? He might never even look.???
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I also cautioned Marty not to say it was about money or hours, or Mike might offer him more.
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So he said he'd finish current orders, and Mike said that might be enough work to last until middle of next week, but Marty finished it Thursday and Friday.
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He wants to have a week off before looking for something else.? We're *right* by Raley's, Lowe's and a Twister's.? Toward Menaul there's a video game store that really wanted to hire Kirby after he quit at Active Imagination, but Kirby turned them down twice.? I'm pressing Marty to go there and get a job so he can get an employee discount on the new Playstation that's coming out.? I said "DO IT!? Do it right now!"
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He didn't seem eager.
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I said "You kids never do what I tell you to do."
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Marty:? "That's how we were raised."
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Me: "Well it's going to bite you in the butt someday."
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Marty-without-a-pause:? "That we were raised that way?"
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Oooohh...?? He won. <g>
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There was nothing wrong with the job, it's just that when Marty started there were other people to talk to and he was learning lots of new things, but it devolved into Marty working all alone and doing things he had done before.?
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I didn't share it at the time, for being sensitive information that involved others, but many years have passed.??
There's something in my willingness and calm about them NOT doing what I thought they should do that's the reason for bringing it.??
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There are still times, now, this week, that I think wistfully that I wish they would do some little thing differently, maybe more efficiently, but then I see them being responsible¡ªall in their 30s now¡ªand sweet to kids (those with kids, and Holly is a sweet Auntie when she's in range).
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Sandra
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Re: About this group and other resources
I just came across this.? I'm disputing my own self.
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I've been doing that since 1993, when I started writing about unschooling on a user group. Then AOL, where I hosted chats and saved the transcripts. A couple of those are still up (and a few others might be later).
Here's one:?
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-------- end quote ----------
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If it was 1993, not 1992, then I was wrong two comments above.? Or I was wrong when I wrote the note above.??
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29.5 years, give or take half a year.? Sorry.? Someday I'll find some evidence.? Not today, though.? It's after midnight and I'm old. :-)
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Sandra
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Re: About this group and other resources
The guidelines about posting to this group are linked on the main page.??
I still return posts if they don't follow those, even though the group is quiet.
THANK YOU, Jo and Karen, and I wish others would post too, but in that solid, helpful way :-).? ?If you have some wonderment but you don't want to post, you could use the search bar as an oracle and ask your question.? It will probably lead you to prior discussions when the group got hundreds of posts a month, sometimes over a thousand.
/g/AlwaysLearning
And thousands of pages of good-parts from this forum and others have been collected for posterity. (Hey, that's most of you!)
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About this group and other resources
I've been discussing unschooling online for 30 years now. I have some printouts dated 1982, from a user group on "HOME SCHOOLING" that had about 80 participants, mor than half of whom were home schooling because their churches had told them it was the only way to be.? ? Many participants were men, too, because it wasn't easy to have e-mail yet outside of work.? My e-mail address was through a company called *Prodigy (with an asterisk in it :-).
Before long AOL opened, and that was like a huge air-conditioned mall, compared to the BBS/user groups.? That's when I buddied up with Pam Sorooshian, and Joyce Fetteroll, and others who could think clearly and write well and some of whom are still around..? There were other forums, and this group was created in November 2001, so nearly 21 years ago.? The first post was by Deb Lewis:
/g/AlwaysLearning/message/1
It's still. great read, and the responses, too.??
Please never feel bad about reading something again.? For one thing, that's they way people can really know something, through repetition.? For another thing.? You read it from a different perspective, after you have more experience with unschooling or parenting (or spirituality or whatever the topic is), and it WILL be different.
This page, on my site, is about repetition (in good ways) and has a video of me (very short, with Holly filming and responding):
Today's Just Add Light and Stir (which has a **NEW** self-service subscription box) has a link to all the rearview mirror photos that are up there, and if any of you want to tke a good one and send it, I wouldn't mind considering others. There are two of bridges, in mirrors, and those are STUNNING.
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Re: Will you please help?
Why a book???
There are graphs, charts, and links up top to help you narrow it down by age or stage.
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On my own site, with unschooling in mind, I have:
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Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development
That has some links.
Erickson's stages are more about social and psychological development, than cognitive.? Lots of that is at the first link.
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If you read several others, that won't hurt! It's not about reading one book or "learning" one set of stages, but of adding to your understanding of what is likely, and why, and how unschooling parents can help kids be comfortably supported in their natural exploration of the world from whatever level of understanding or thought or awareness or need they're living in and through!
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Reading a whole book, rather than peeking into colorful charts or explanations by and for unschoolers might be too much time to take away from a young child.??
I loved "Behave," but it's about neurochemistry, and not a quick or easy read. :-)
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Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
Thank you very much .? Would there be any suggestions for younger years , perhaps age 2 plus ?? Thanks again? Jodie?
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On 13 Sep 2022, at 10:46 pm, Jo Isaac <joanneisaac@...> wrote:
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For teens, I really? loved Teenagers, A Natural History
https://www.bookdepository.com/Teenagers-A-Natural-History-David-Bainbridge/9781846271229?redirected=true&selectCurrency=AUD&w=AF45AU963Q6XRMA8VT66&gclid=CjwKCAjw1ICZBhAzEiwAFfvFhGGMop4CVm3miv2ArffKh8iteLVOQKYuzlwIvcQnMmjXPqirJj6nmRoCHscQAvD_BwE
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Sent from for Windows
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Hello?
Please could I have a recommendation for a good book to read on human development please ??
I read some when my son was little but would like to refresh for my 2nd child.?
Jodie?
On 11 Sep 2022, at 6:30 am, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
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Karen James wrote: "He's still young.? He's still learning.? His prefrontal cortex (the decision making part of his brain) is still developing.? At this stage of his life he is influenced a lot on his amigdala (the emotional part of his
brain). Because they look so mature, sometimes we expect more from teenagers than they are capable of doing or giving yet.? Give him time.? Show him patience and grace.? Be generous and understanding and supportive.? These things will go a long way toward
helping him learn to make choices that consider other people, because he will come to have a deeper awareness of and confidence in being truly considered himself."
I'm repeating it because I want to say that any parent who chooses to unschool (any homeschooling, but especially unschooling) should have learned about human development somewhere along the way (before teen years, generally and ideally speaking).? YES to everything
Karen wrote, and I'm grateful that she took the time to share her thoughts, as her own teen has just reached the end of his teen years, or is about to.??
Expecting a teen to behave as he used to when he was 12, or 10, or 8, is a harmful expectation.? The voice of his mother, in his head, will serve him better if it is a sweet and kind one, and if his memory of you is of you being gentle and smiling.??
Let him take care of trees the way he wants to, maybe.? If the retaining wall fails, it can be repaired, but it might not fail, and those trees might be benefited by something he does that you wouldn't have done.?
If a parent is too controlling, the parent doesn't see how the child can learn, and the child can't freely make choices to learn from.??
I think the questions are asking us to help the mother control the son.? That's not what unschooling should be about.??
Learning.
Peace.
Relationships.
Those are the answers being offered, and the responses seem to?be? "Yeah, but..."
Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
I'll share one more.? It's a recent favourite of mine, again not about teenagers, but there's a chapter on arguing that might interest parents of teens (Chapter 7).? Arguing is a skill that, when used well, helps people learn to reason.? We often think of it as a barrier to healthy relationships, but it's really an extremely useful tool.? That we (parents, and especially unschooling parents) can help our teens practice honing that skill, is truly a privilege.?
The book is called How Minds Change, and it's by David McRaney.? ?There is is some overlap with the first book I shared, which was kinda cool for me to hear and recognize.? :)
https://www.amazon.com/How-Minds-Change-Surprising-Persuasion/dp/B094RJGCRH/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=CjwKCAjw1ICZBhAzEiwAFfvFhEWZ3GOsO_wNyTTAUEI8EvFzZ_umGo2lfdxqCGCG5-SX4-YI0DtJRhoCW2wQAvD_BwE&hvadid=596407103649&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031909&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=6106981080559142356&hvtargid=kwd-754815010257&hydadcr=22535_11318315&keywords=how+minds+change&qid=1663108778&sr=8-1?
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Re: Will you please help?
The Parent/Teen Breakthrough is very good too.
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Karen James
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Re: Will you please help?
I loved Behave by Robert M. Sapolosky.? It's not about teenagers, but he does have a chapter on teenagers which was really interesting.? The whole book is interesting.? I have the audible version, so I can listen to it while I work on things that don't require my full attention.? There's a lot of detail, which you don't need to know, but it helps to recognize how deeply complicated we all are, and it helped me have more compassion for my son, for my husband, for my friends and family, for strangers, and for myself.??
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Karen James
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Re: Will you please help?
For teens, I really? loved Teenagers, A Natural History
https://www.bookdepository.com/Teenagers-A-Natural-History-David-Bainbridge/9781846271229?redirected=true&selectCurrency=AUD&w=AF45AU963Q6XRMA8VT66&gclid=CjwKCAjw1ICZBhAzEiwAFfvFhGGMop4CVm3miv2ArffKh8iteLVOQKYuzlwIvcQnMmjXPqirJj6nmRoCHscQAvD_BwE
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Sent from for Windows
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From: jodie aldridge via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2022 6:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Will you please help?
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Hello?
Please could I have a recommendation for a good book to read on human development please ??
I read some when my son was little but would like to refresh for my 2nd child.?
Jodie?
On 11 Sep 2022, at 6:30 am, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
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Karen James wrote: "He's still young.? He's still learning.? His prefrontal cortex (the decision making part of his brain) is still developing.? At this stage of his life he is influenced a lot on his amigdala (the emotional part of his
brain). Because they look so mature, sometimes we expect more from teenagers than they are capable of doing or giving yet.? Give him time.? Show him patience and grace.? Be generous and understanding and supportive.? These things will go a long way toward
helping him learn to make choices that consider other people, because he will come to have a deeper awareness of and confidence in being truly considered himself."
I'm repeating it because I want to say that any parent who chooses to unschool (any homeschooling, but especially unschooling) should have learned about human development somewhere along the way (before teen years, generally and ideally speaking).? YES to everything
Karen wrote, and I'm grateful that she took the time to share her thoughts, as her own teen has just reached the end of his teen years, or is about to.??
Expecting a teen to behave as he used to when he was 12, or 10, or 8, is a harmful expectation.? The voice of his mother, in his head, will serve him better if it is a sweet and kind one, and if his memory of you is of you being gentle and smiling.??
Let him take care of trees the way he wants to, maybe.? If the retaining wall fails, it can be repaired, but it might not fail, and those trees might be benefited by something he does that you wouldn't have done.?
If a parent is too controlling, the parent doesn't see how the child can learn, and the child can't freely make choices to learn from.??
I think the questions are asking us to help the mother control the son.? That's not what unschooling should be about.??
Learning.
Peace.
Relationships.
Those are the answers being offered, and the responses seem to?be? "Yeah, but..."
Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
Hello? Please could I have a recommendation for a good book to read on human development please ?? I read some when my son was little but would like to refresh for my 2nd child.? Many Thanks?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11 Sep 2022, at 6:30 am, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
? Karen James wrote: "He's still young.? He's still learning.? His prefrontal cortex (the decision making part of his brain) is still developing.? At this stage of his life he is influenced a lot on his amigdala (the emotional part of his brain). Because they look so mature, sometimes we expect more from teenagers than they are capable of doing or giving yet.? Give him time.? Show him patience and grace.? Be generous and understanding and supportive.? These things will go a long way toward helping him learn to make choices that consider other people, because he will come to have a deeper awareness of and confidence in being truly considered himself."
I'm repeating it because I want to say that any parent who chooses to unschool (any homeschooling, but especially unschooling) should have learned about human development somewhere along the way (before teen years, generally and ideally speaking).? YES to everything Karen wrote, and I'm grateful that she took the time to share her thoughts, as her own teen has just reached the end of his teen years, or is about to.??
Expecting a teen to behave as he used to when he was 12, or 10, or 8, is a harmful expectation.? The voice of his mother, in his head, will serve him better if it is a sweet and kind one, and if his memory of you is of you being gentle and smiling.??
Let him take care of trees the way he wants to, maybe.? If the retaining wall fails, it can be repaired, but it might not fail, and those trees might be benefited by something he does that you wouldn't have done.?
If a parent is too controlling, the parent doesn't see how the child can learn, and the child can't freely make choices to learn from.??
I think the questions are asking us to help the mother control the son.? That's not what unschooling should be about.??
Learning.
Peace.
Relationships.
Those are the answers being offered, and the responses seem to?be? "Yeah, but..."
Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
Karen James wrote: "He's still young.? He's still learning.? His prefrontal cortex (the decision making part of his brain) is still developing.? At this stage of his life he is influenced a lot on his amigdala (the emotional part of his brain). Because they look so mature, sometimes we expect more from teenagers than they are capable of doing or giving yet.? Give him time.? Show him patience and grace.? Be generous and understanding and supportive.? These things will go a long way toward helping him learn to make choices that consider other people, because he will come to have a deeper awareness of and confidence in being truly considered himself."
I'm repeating it because I want to say that any parent who chooses to unschool (any homeschooling, but especially unschooling) should have learned about human development somewhere along the way (before teen years, generally and ideally speaking).? YES to everything Karen wrote, and I'm grateful that she took the time to share her thoughts, as her own teen has just reached the end of his teen years, or is about to.??
Expecting a teen to behave as he used to when he was 12, or 10, or 8, is a harmful expectation.? The voice of his mother, in his head, will serve him better if it is a sweet and kind one, and if his memory of you is of you being gentle and smiling.??
Let him take care of trees the way he wants to, maybe.? If the retaining wall fails, it can be repaired, but it might not fail, and those trees might be benefited by something he does that you wouldn't have done.?
If a parent is too controlling, the parent doesn't see how the child can learn, and the child can't freely make choices to learn from.??
I think the questions are asking us to help the mother control the son.? That's not what unschooling should be about.??
Learning.
Peace.
Relationships.
Those are the answers being offered, and the responses seem to?be? "Yeah, but..."
Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
***When I (as well as others)? have an idea or a suggestion, my son gets angry and says its ridiculous, or he will agree, and then do the opposite.*** Maybe don't make so many suggestions.??
***Thus, the tree incident
..he said we should go trim it, and i agreed.***
Maybe don't agree to let him do things that might have consequences that you can't live with.? If this was me, and it was important to me that the tree be trimmed in a certain way, I would say something like, "I want to make sure it's trimmed well.? We need that tree for erosion.? I think I'll hire an arborist."? Or something like that.? If there are things *you* want done a certain way, do them yourself.? Don't pretend to let him have choices when there really are none.? That would be frustrating for a lot of people.
***And on the garbage and the rats, he gets angry when i ask him to consider my concern and? come up with a solution.***
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Don't ask him to consider anything.? Do something to help *yourself* feel more comfortable with the situation.? Put a tight fitting lidded garbage bin out there, and let him know to put the garbage in there.??
***He then feels badly and says he does not know why he? didn't do that.***
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He didn't do it because it wasn't important to him.? It's not the end of the world.? Again, help him make putting the garbage somewhere an easier task.? Or take it out yourself when you see it getting full, so that he doesn't need to worry about it.? Take it out when it's half-full.? Shame is not healthy, especially about something so simple.
***What can i do differently so he can consider an idea that did not originate with him once in a while?*** ?
You can't make anyone consider anything.? That's out of your control.? The?ideas that he choses consider or not consider are entirely up to him.??
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Don't give him choices when there aren't any.? If *you* want something done a certain way, do it yourself.? It could?be that he feels frustrated because he feels a bit manipulated.? Teenagers are sensitive to that.? If you are leading him to believe that he has a choice, but really you want something done a certain way, when he doesn't agree with your way, he fails.? Then feels badly about the situation and, worse?still, himself.
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The best way I've personally found to open people up to other options is to be open to other options myself and honest when there other options aren't possible.?
If he wants to do the opposite of what you suggest, and it doesn't hurt anything, let him do it.? If whatever it is fails, let him reflect on why it failed without a lot of uninvited commentary.? As I mentioned in my last post, he's probably needing to assert himself.? He's still young.? He's still learning.? His prefrontal cortex (the decision making part of his brain) is still developing.? At this stage of his life he is influenced a lot on his amigdala (the emotional part of his brain). Because they look so mature, sometimes we expect more from teenagers than they are capable of doing or giving yet.? Give him time.? Show him patience and grace.? Be generous and understanding and supportive.? These things will go a long way toward helping him learn to make choices that consider other people, because he will come to have a deeper awareness of and confidence in being truly considered himself.
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Karen James
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Re: Will you please help?
I read with interest your response and the link you sent. I certainly can relate to the road Ethan and you traversed.
With all my words, perhaps i have not been clear. My son has had ideas for many years, and i have followed him, supported him, listened, and if needed, help him implement these desires and ideas.
The problem that i am looking for guidance with is the opposite. When I (as well as others)? have an idea or a suggestion, my son gets angry and says its ridiculous, or he will agree, and then do the opposite.
Thus, the tree incident ..he said we should go trim it, and i agreed.?
So, it is not? about him trimming the tree, but it is about the discussion beforehand that we have been advised not to cut it completely,? because we need it due to erosion. He reiterated that he just wanted it trimmed, but he then goes and cuts it completely down. He either then gets angry and says it was a ridiculous idea, or he will say he does not know why he did that, and then he genuinely feels badly.
And on the garbage and the rats, he gets angry when i ask him to consider my concern and? come up with a solution. He will either says "Oh, it won't happen" (but he knows it has happened before) or he says he will take it down. When he does not, he says it is ridiculous, or he again does not know why he did that. He then feels badly and says he does not know why he? didn't do that.
What can i do differently so he can consider an idea that did not originate with him once in a while???
Thank you for expending ypur valuable time to listen and respond. I am most appreciative.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 4:09 PM, Karen James <semajrak@...> wrote: Teenagers seem to need to assert their place in the World.? Sometimes that looks like rejection to parents.? It's not.? Remembering that helped me navigate those couple of trickier years when Ethan seemed to need to contradict almost everything I said or did.? Instead of seeing it as him rejecting me or my ideas, I came to see our?interactions as an opportunity to support him learning to assert himself with someone he trusted.? Who better to do that with?? What did that look like?
When he made an argument for something, if I could, I incorporated his ideas into whatever the plan was, even when I didn't agree with it.? If it didn't hurt anything, I did my best to make it work.? If it didn't work out, I didn't say, "I told you so."? I let him come to his own conclusions, which he normally did with humility and a greater understanding of whatever it was.
When he argued with me, I learned to see it not so much as conflict, but as an opportunity for him to make his point heard.? I wrote about that here:
I admit it was hard for me, but I gave him space.? I recognized that he was growing up and he needed to redefine his relationship with me.? I made room for him to do that.? I trusted that he would find something that worked well for him.? I trusted that I could make it work well for me too.? I have often said that I believe reincarnation is for the living.? I, personally, have lived many lives within this one life I've been given.? I've been so fortunate to have had the freedom to grow and change and be who I needed to be at each stage of my life.? Some of the Me's I've liked better than others.? ;)? I've learned a little something from each one.? I look forward to meeting more.
Our kids need room to explore who they are in each phase of their lives too.? More and more, as the years pass, we come to understand that they are very much their?own people.? When we see them and support them all along the way, they grow with confidence and with a clearer sense of where they want to go next.? That we get to play such an influential role in that growth is a true privilege and gift.? I find it helps to remember that too.
What do you want your son to remember about this time in his life?? Maybe a failed wall will nurture?a brilliant engineer.? Maybe a poorly trimmed tree will aid in the learning of a budding botanist.? Maybe a healthy, fruitful debate with the person most important in his life will foster a caring, compassionate husband/father/friend years down the road. Keep your vision on the horizon.? Sometimes it helps to think about where you want to go, when you are trying to navigate where you are in any?moment.
Oh, and I agree with Sandra!? Put a lidded bin on the balcony for him.? It won't last forever.? You can remove it when he's gone.? Make it easier for him to succeed when you can.
Karen James?? On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 11:48 AM Sandra Dodd < aelflaed@...> wrote: M Person the original poster sent this, in some side correspondence, for further help.? If anyone reading has ideas,? please respond!
______________________________________
?
?I am very concerned that? **I am adversely affecting the once healthy relationship my son and I have had. ( I state that well aware that he is and is continuing to develop into his own special individual, separate from the "us")---
?
?
Based on my own thoughts and reading yours, i respond to my son by being energetic and positive of his wants and his ideas. The "however" is that he does not respond in kind.? ---
?
I can share examples, but please know these exchanges are not isolated incidents, literally quite the opposite.---
?
We are weeding and cutting away dead branches and cleaning around our fruit trees. (As an aside, I am noting that you had mentioned to me about the incorrect use of "we"? and i am stating "we" and "our" , thinking it is accurate...your thoughts, if you do not mind?)---
?
Before my son and I go outside, we discuss why the non fruit? trees are there and the purpose they serve because of erosion concerns. We agree that soon we can take them out like he wants and replace with fruit trees. He and I agree and then he? asks if he can trim one...but he then proceeds to cut the whole tree.(without even informing me, much less considering the concerns) This has occurred more than once, my son explaining that either he forgot or he thinks it looks better without the tree.---
?
One other example..My son and i have volunteered and worked at a farmers market...this includes unloading the truck, setting up, selling, packing up, and loading. As my son had gotten older, he and I? really enjoy seeing how strong and capable he is. He likes seeing how much he can load and unload---
?
?
Two weeks ago,? I had a customer who wanted to see more peaches, even though we had alot out.. I asked my son if he could get another tub from the truck. He told me no, because he does not like it when i am "too nice" to? customers.---
?
Later, we discussed this. One of the points I made was specific to me...It was important to me, and I would appreciate? his cooperation sometimes.? He said that since I always say yes to him, he could think of it as doing something that i wanted. And as he often says..." I promise next time I will"---
?
?
Ironically, the next week something very similar happened, and this time in front of the customer, he refused to get a tub from the truck. I asked him later about his promise, and he said. ."I didn't know you were going to do the same ridiculous thing again"---
?
?
A few points...
?
*There is alot of work to do around the house, and he and i have a plan. However, it has been challenging to move forward, because if I have an opinion or something i want to offer, he becomes upset and basically just proceeds doing it as he wants. My reactions have been to ask him to stop so we can look at our options or to have to tell him to stop or to walk away. None of them are ideal.?
?
*My son really wants to fix up the house. He wants us to have a 4th of July party next year, so that has been our goal. Yet, it is challenging to go forward when if i? offer a thought or wish, my son gets angry, says how stupid it would be, or agrees and then changes his mind without communicating that.
?
*He wants us to work together. He likes us to do things together. (Of course, that means we listen to the radio station he wants, we go where he wants, we do it the way he wants)
?
*He wants to especially because he wants us to keep working on the house, and i have explained that it is not a good idea/we can not continue? to work on the house when we cannot find a way to cooperate.)??
?
He will feel upset later,? and??he says that he does not mean what he says when he is mad, and when we talk about it, he says he does not know why he acts the way he does.?
?
Sandra, i recognize how verbose this is, so please allow me to try to succinctly state my problem...in my opinion, my son and I are only in agreement when it is something he wants or thinks. When it is something i am saying, he disagrees and argues that it doesn't make any sense.?
-------------end of the quote from M Person
?
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Re: Will you please help?
Teenagers seem to need to assert their place in the World.? Sometimes that looks like rejection to parents.? It's not.? Remembering that helped me navigate those couple of trickier years when Ethan seemed to need to contradict almost everything I said or did.? Instead of seeing it as him rejecting me or my ideas, I came to see our?interactions as an opportunity to support him learning to assert himself with someone he trusted.? Who better to do that with?? What did that look like?
When he made an argument for something, if I could, I incorporated his ideas into whatever the plan was, even when I didn't agree with it.? If it didn't hurt anything, I did my best to make it work.? If it didn't work out, I didn't say, "I told you so."? I let him come to his own conclusions, which he normally did with humility and a greater understanding of whatever it was.
When he argued with me, I learned to see it not so much as conflict, but as an opportunity for him to make his point heard.? I wrote about that here:
I admit it was hard for me, but I gave him space.? I recognized that he was growing up and he needed to redefine his relationship with me.? I made room for him to do that.? I trusted that he would find something that worked well for him.? I trusted that I could make it work well for me too.? I have often said that I believe reincarnation is for the living.? I, personally, have lived many lives within this one life I've been given.? I've been so fortunate to have had the freedom to grow and change and be who I needed to be at each stage of my life.? Some of the Me's I've liked better than others.? ;)? I've learned a little something from each one.? I look forward to meeting more.
Our kids need room to explore who they are in each phase of their lives too.? More and more, as the years pass, we come to understand that they are very much their?own people.? When we see them and support them all along the way, they grow with confidence and with a clearer sense of where they want to go next.? That we get to play such an influential role in that growth is a true privilege and gift.? I find it helps to remember that too.
What do you want your son to remember about this time in his life?? Maybe a failed wall will nurture?a brilliant engineer.? Maybe a poorly trimmed tree will aid in the learning of a budding botanist.? Maybe a healthy, fruitful debate with the person most important in his life will foster a caring, compassionate husband/father/friend years down the road. Keep your vision on the horizon.? Sometimes it helps to think about where you want to go, when you are trying to navigate where you are in any?moment.
Oh, and I agree with Sandra!? Put a lidded bin on the balcony for him.? It won't last forever.? You can remove it when he's gone.? Make it easier for him to succeed when you can.
Karen James??
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 11:48 AM Sandra Dodd < aelflaed@...> wrote: M Person the original poster sent this, in some side correspondence, for further help.? If anyone reading has ideas,? please respond!
______________________________________
?
?I am very concerned that? **I am adversely affecting the once healthy relationship my son and I have had. ( I state that well aware that he is and is continuing to develop into his own special individual, separate from the "us")---
?
?
Based on my own thoughts and reading yours, i respond to my son by being energetic and positive of his wants and his ideas. The "however" is that he does not respond in kind.? ---
?
I can share examples, but please know these exchanges are not isolated incidents, literally quite the opposite.---
?
We are weeding and cutting away dead branches and cleaning around our fruit trees. (As an aside, I am noting that you had mentioned to me about the incorrect use of "we"? and i am stating "we" and "our" , thinking it is accurate...your thoughts, if you do not mind?)---
?
Before my son and I go outside, we discuss why the non fruit? trees are there and the purpose they serve because of erosion concerns. We agree that soon we can take them out like he wants and replace with fruit trees. He and I agree and then he? asks if he can trim one...but he then proceeds to cut the whole tree.(without even informing me, much less considering the concerns) This has occurred more than once, my son explaining that either he forgot or he thinks it looks better without the tree.---
?
One other example..My son and i have volunteered and worked at a farmers market...this includes unloading the truck, setting up, selling, packing up, and loading. As my son had gotten older, he and I? really enjoy seeing how strong and capable he is. He likes seeing how much he can load and unload---
?
?
Two weeks ago,? I had a customer who wanted to see more peaches, even though we had alot out.. I asked my son if he could get another tub from the truck. He told me no, because he does not like it when i am "too nice" to? customers.---
?
Later, we discussed this. One of the points I made was specific to me...It was important to me, and I would appreciate? his cooperation sometimes.? He said that since I always say yes to him, he could think of it as doing something that i wanted. And as he often says..." I promise next time I will"---
?
?
Ironically, the next week something very similar happened, and this time in front of the customer, he refused to get a tub from the truck. I asked him later about his promise, and he said. ."I didn't know you were going to do the same ridiculous thing again"---
?
?
A few points...
?
*There is alot of work to do around the house, and he and i have a plan. However, it has been challenging to move forward, because if I have an opinion or something i want to offer, he becomes upset and basically just proceeds doing it as he wants. My reactions have been to ask him to stop so we can look at our options or to have to tell him to stop or to walk away. None of them are ideal.?
?
*My son really wants to fix up the house. He wants us to have a 4th of July party next year, so that has been our goal. Yet, it is challenging to go forward when if i? offer a thought or wish, my son gets angry, says how stupid it would be, or agrees and then changes his mind without communicating that.
?
*He wants us to work together. He likes us to do things together. (Of course, that means we listen to the radio station he wants, we go where he wants, we do it the way he wants)
?
*He wants to especially because he wants us to keep working on the house, and i have explained that it is not a good idea/we can not continue? to work on the house when we cannot find a way to cooperate.)??
?
He will feel upset later,? and??he says that he does not mean what he says when he is mad, and when we talk about it, he says he does not know why he acts the way he does.?
?
Sandra, i recognize how verbose this is, so please allow me to try to succinctly state my problem...in my opinion, my son and I are only in agreement when it is something he wants or thinks. When it is something i am saying, he disagrees and argues that it doesn't make any sense.?
-------------end of the quote from M Person
?
|
Sandra Dodd
Karen James
