Re: An intensive study of Irma Livoni.
I believe the study was done by Charles K.? He sent me a copy of his findings,(the document shared by Bob S.) several years ago.
I met Al M. in the late 70's and attended some of the same meetings.
Yours in recovery,
John D.
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AA Virtual History Tour Zoom
HI,
?
Please find the attached for information.
?
Yours in fellowship
?
Glenn (New member via Thom R).
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An intensive study of Irma Livoni.
Actually there exists very much information about the life of Erma Livoni! The attached file includes 12 full pages presenting nearly ?year-by-year descriptions of her life between when she was born in 1910 until her death in 1974! It even ends with a picture of her tombstone. According to the State of California, Irma died of Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease (heart attack). She died on August 24, 1974 at 8:00 pm. She was laid to rest in the Brown’s Family plot in Section Myrtle, Lot 114, in Lynnwood Park Memorial Cemetery in city of Long Beach in the County of Los Angeles, California. ? Someone performed an very intensive and thorough study! ?Much appreciated! ? Bob S ? -- Bob S
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Re: Early women AA members
Bob i didnt write that. My nameGot autopopulated to the bottom of lawyer@wgwlaw ‘s post. ?He wrote that big paragraph. ?I wrote the small part about wives wanting underirablenwomen kicked out of aa
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On May 5, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Bob S <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:
?
Gene—thanks for the correct spelling of Irma Livoni.?? Bob S ? *** ? ? The men get blamed but it was their wives that wanted the so called inappropriate woman out. ?Same in Akron. Why would men want pretty and slutty women banned. ?I guess in ?some cases the more serious in recovery would want the distraction of women minimized but they welcomed Sybil From day one once they knew she was there to get sober.?
On May 5, 2020, at 1:56 PM, pdBillW <Lawyer@...> wrote:
?Hi Bob: I believe her name was "Irma Livoni" during her time around AA. I always think it is important to recognize the fact that the ONLY things we know about her AA experience in Los Angeles, is that there's a letter of the group "asking her" to come before them to explain herself, and asking her not to attend meetings until she did so. Famously Sybil Corwin (and 5-other last names) would talk at meetings about her treatment in terms of (a) early women's experience with the male dominated fellowship, and (b) Sybil herself had a version of "whatever happened" to Irma, that so far can not be proved with "independent sources." This controversy was also "pre-Tradition" when the fellowship as a whole was struggling with stuff like "membership committees" and what a member's "rights" were. some groups for instance held a member LOST membership by getting caught or admitting drinking again. Others didn't. The fellowship was still in its "explosive growth" period when a lot of this nonsense was going on....The Traditions really reigned in the groups....Thanks for posting!!
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
-- Bob S
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
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Re: Writing The Big Book Discrepancy
Perhaps you are taking my post out of context. ?He was talking about there wasnt anyone sober yet in Cleveland ?as of oct 1937. Records show their were at least 5 documented people. ?They are listed on the Amos list.?
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On May 5, 2020, at 7:35 PM, John Schram <lasenby327@...> wrote:
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He did say Oct? On May 5, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Gene <califxr650l@...> wrote:
?Im loving the book. Hvnt got to far yet but it didnt take long till I hit a big discrepancy. On page 27 William wrote their were no Cleveland members in Oct of 1937 but our history clearly shows there were Cleveland members starting in 1936. ?Jane Sturdevant came in early 1937 is just one example. The Amos list shows 5 Cleveland members sober. Also in the forward to the 2nd edition it states a small group had started at Cleveland in 1937. ? I wonder why he wrote that? -- Eugene Lane Redondo Bch <0468430E-C54E-4335-82A2-67D576B81DEF.jpeg>
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
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Re: Writing The Big Book Discrepancy
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On May 5, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Gene <califxr650l@...> wrote:
?Im loving the book. Hvnt got to far yet but it didnt take long till I hit a big discrepancy. On page 27 William wrote their were no Cleveland members in Oct of 1937 but our history clearly shows there were Cleveland members starting in 1936. ?Jane Sturdevant came in early 1937 is just one example. The Amos list shows 5 Cleveland members sober. Also in the forward to the 2nd edition it states a small group had started at Cleveland in 1937. ? I wonder why he wrote that? -- Eugene Lane Redondo Bch <0468430E-C54E-4335-82A2-67D576B81DEF.jpeg>
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Re: Early women AA members
Gene—thanks for the correct spelling of Irma Livoni.?? Bob S ? *** ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2020 5:57 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Early women AA members ? The men get blamed but it was their wives that wanted the so called inappropriate woman out. ?Same in Akron. Why would men want pretty and slutty women banned. ?I guess in ?some cases the more serious in recovery would want the distraction of women minimized but they welcomed Sybil From day one once they knew she was there to get sober.?
On May 5, 2020, at 1:56 PM, pdBillW <Lawyer@...> wrote:
?Hi Bob: I believe her name was "Irma Livoni" during her time around AA. I always think it is important to recognize the fact that the ONLY things we know about her AA experience in Los Angeles, is that there's a letter of the group "asking her" to come before them to explain herself, and asking her not to attend meetings until she did so. Famously Sybil Corwin (and 5-other last names) would talk at meetings about her treatment in terms of (a) early women's experience with the male dominated fellowship, and (b) Sybil herself had a version of "whatever happened" to Irma, that so far can not be proved with "independent sources." This controversy was also "pre-Tradition" when the fellowship as a whole was struggling with stuff like "membership committees" and what a member's "rights" were. some groups for instance held a member LOST membership by getting caught or admitting drinking again. Others didn't. The fellowship was still in its "explosive growth" period when a lot of this nonsense was going on....The Traditions really reigned in the groups....Thanks for posting!!
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
-- Bob S
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Re: Early women AA members
The men get blamed but it was their wives that wanted the so called inappropriate woman out. ?Same in Akron. Why would men want pretty and slutty women banned. ?I guess in ?some cases the more serious in recovery would want the distraction of women minimized but they welcomed Sybil From day one once they knew she was there to get sober.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 5, 2020, at 1:56 PM, pdBillW <Lawyer@...> wrote:
?Hi Bob: I believe her name was "Irma Livoni" during her time around AA. I always think it is important to recognize the fact that the ONLY things we know about her AA experience in Los Angeles, is that there's a letter of the group "asking her" to come before them to explain herself, and asking her not to attend meetings until she did so. Famously Sybil Corwin (and 5-other last names) would talk at meetings about her treatment in terms of (a) early women's experience with the male dominated fellowship, and (b) Sybil herself had a version of "whatever happened" to Irma, that so far can not be proved with "independent sources." This controversy was also "pre-Tradition" when the fellowship as a whole was struggling with stuff like "membership committees" and what a member's "rights" were. some groups for instance held a member LOST membership by getting caught or admitting drinking again. Others didn't. The fellowship was still in its "explosive growth" period when a lot of this nonsense was going on....The Traditions really reigned in the groups....Thanks for posting!!
--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
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Re: Early women AA members
Hi Bob: I believe her name was "Irma Livoni" during her time around AA. I always think it is important to recognize the fact that the ONLY things we know about her AA experience in Los Angeles, is that there's a letter of the group "asking her" to come before them to explain herself, and asking her not to attend meetings until she did so. Famously Sybil Corwin (and 5-other last names) would talk at meetings about her treatment in terms of (a) early women's experience with the male dominated fellowship, and (b) Sybil herself had a version of "whatever happened" to Irma, that so far can not be proved with "independent sources." This controversy was also "pre-Tradition" when the fellowship as a whole was struggling with stuff like "membership committees" and what a member's "rights" were. some groups for instance held a member LOST membership by getting caught or admitting drinking again. Others didn't. The fellowship was still in its "explosive growth" period when a lot of this nonsense was going on....The Traditions really reigned in the groups....Thanks for posting!!
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Writing The Big Book Discrepancy
Im loving the book. Hvnt got to far yet but it didnt take long till I hit a big discrepancy. On page 27 William wrote their were no Cleveland members in Oct of 1937 but our history clearly shows there were Cleveland members starting in 1936. ?Jane Sturdevant came in early 1937 is just one example. The Amos list shows 5 Cleveland members sober. Also in the forward to the 2nd edition it states a small group had started at Cleveland in 1937. ? I wonder why he wrote that? -- Eugene Lane Redondo Bch 
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Thanks Jim My earliest Red Book is 48' and have the McElrath book didn't see a mention of fifth step Question was does this practice of no AA member still practiced in the MidWest. On west coast sponsor urged to hear the Fifth Step John
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim
Sent: May 5, 2020 5:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Fifth Step
Hello.
In the days when the Little Red Book was written and edited between 1946 and 1967 (not sure what year edition you are referring to) many changes were made. In 1946 the lack of large numbers of recovered?alcoholics with long-term sobriety probably contributed to this advice to go outside of AA. The BB itself does not suggest someone from AA.
A great book is "The Story Behind The Little Red Book...The Evolution of a Twelve Step Classic" by Damian McElrath is a good book for reference.
jim
I was reading the Coll-Webb Little Red Book tonight for a step study Was it common practice in Akron, Cleveland or Mid West not to do a Fifth Step with a spiritual advisor or sponsor Page 83 states "When the right time arrives, arrange and interview with anyone outside of AA Thanks for any info on this?
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Hello.
In the days when the Little Red Book was written and edited between 1946 and 1967 (not sure what year edition you are referring to) many changes were made. In 1946 the lack of large numbers of recovered?alcoholics with long-term sobriety probably contributed to this advice to go outside of AA. The BB itself does not suggest someone from AA.
A great book is "The Story Behind The Little Red Book...The Evolution of a Twelve Step Classic" by Damian McElrath is a good book for reference.
jim
I was reading the Coll-Webb Little Red Book tonight for a step study Was it common practice in Akron, Cleveland or Mid West not to do a Fifth Step with a spiritual advisor or sponsor Page 83 states "When the right time arrives, arrange and interview with anyone outside of AA Thanks for any info on this?
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I was reading the Coll-Webb Little Red Book tonight for a step study Was it common practice in Akron, Cleveland or Mid West not to do a Fifth Step with a spiritual advisor or sponsor Page 83 states "When the right time arrives, arrange and interview with anyone outside of AA Thanks for any info on this?
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Dear AA history friends, ? The attached article provides a very nice overall view of early women in AA . ? About Irma Livora: ?I have read several versions about Irma’s life after receiving this 1941 letter; most of them claimed she either died of alcoholism or committed suicide. NOT TRUE! Irma lived for 33 more years. She died, August 24, 1974 at 67 years old. Her name, after several marriages, was ?Irma Edna Craig. ? ? Bob? S ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Bob S
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Gene, Yes, I see what you mean! However, I have attached the same from “SILKWORTH” ?and the numbers are connected. Bob S ? ** ? ? ? Ty for the reply Bob but that isnt what Im refering to. ?Can someone verify that the following lines are missing.? 235-246, 365-385, 390-428, 582-611, 659-679, 718-752, 756-784, 972-1008, 1070-1092, 1144-1172.... these lines are all missing from the pdf that is downloaded to my phone.? If just a couple lines were missing no big deal. ?But for me huge chunks are missing. Is anyone else having this issue? -- Bob S
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Re: Drafts of "Bill's Story"
Ty for the reply Bob but that isnt what Im refering to. ?Can someone verify that the following lines are missing.? 235-246, 365-385, 390-428, 582-611, 659-679, 718-752, 756-784, 972-1008, 1070-1092, 1144-1172.... these lines are all missing from the pdf that is downloaded to my phone.? If just a couple lines were missing no big deal. ?But for me huge chunks are missing. Is anyone else having this issue? Thanks Gene
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On May 2, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob S <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:
?
Gene asked whether the first draft of Bill’s Story was corrupt because of missing parts. A partial answer could be found between numbers 864 and 867. In very small and faded print is written: “Two line numbers are skipped in the typewritten manuscript.” This might be true for the other missing sections of this draft. ? Bob S. ? ****c ? ? The first attached Bills storey appears to ?have missing sections. ?Is the file corrupt or is it me. ?Is there another place online I download it from or read it ? I have attached copies of the first and second drafts of “Bill’s Story.”? Both were typed by Ruth Hock, Bill’s secretary, during spring of 1938. You will notice many differences between these two writings—neither of these drafts were included verbatim in the “Manuscript” (attached).? The Manuscript was finished by Bill Wilson in December of that year, but it was edited (changed) again during the early months of 1939. The Big Book was printed the following April.? “So, “Bill’s Story” experienced almost a year of thoughtful changes—no wonderful it is so powerful!? ? These drafts tell us significant changes as “Bill’s Story” progressed. The Big Book Study Group of South New Jersey has produced a wonderful online illustration of the second draft with many interesting archival photos. Please download: ? ? Bob S ? Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, In? 47374 (765) 935-0130 ? ?
--
Bob S
<Bill's Story first draft.pdf> <Bills Story second draft.pdf> <Origional Alcoholics Anonymous Manuscript.html>
-- Bob S
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Re: Drafts of "Bill's Story"
Gene asked whether the first draft of Bill’s Story was corrupt because of missing parts. A partial answer could be found between numbers 864 and 867. In very small and faded print is written: “Two line numbers are skipped in the typewritten manuscript.” This might be true for the other missing sections of this draft. ? Bob S. ? ****c ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2020 1:39 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Drafts of "Bill's Story" ? The first attached Bills storey appears to ?have missing sections. ?Is the file corrupt or is it me. ?Is there another place online I download it from or read it ? I have attached copies of the first and second drafts of “Bill’s Story.”? Both were typed by Ruth Hock, Bill’s secretary, during spring of 1938. You will notice many differences between these two writings—neither of these drafts were included verbatim in the “Manuscript” (attached).? The Manuscript was finished by Bill Wilson in December of that year, but it was edited (changed) again during the early months of 1939. The Big Book was printed the following April.? “So, “Bill’s Story” experienced almost a year of thoughtful changes—no wonderful it is so powerful!? ? These drafts tell us significant changes as “Bill’s Story” progressed. The Big Book Study Group of South New Jersey has produced a wonderful online illustration of the second draft with many interesting archival photos. Please download: ? ? Bob S ? Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, In? 47374 (765) 935-0130 ? ?
--
Bob S
<Bill's Story first draft.pdf> <Bills Story second draft.pdf> <Origional Alcoholics Anonymous Manuscript.html>
-- Bob S
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Re: Drafts of "Bill's Story"
The first attached Bills storey appears to ?have missing sections. ?Is the file corrupt or is it me. ?Is there another place online I download it from or read it
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On Apr 19, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Bob S <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:
?
I have attached copies of the first and second drafts of “Bill’s Story.”? Both were typed by Ruth Hock, Bill’s secretary, during spring of 1938. You will notice many differences between these two writings—neither of these drafts were included verbatim in the “Manuscript” (attached).? The Manuscript was finished by Bill Wilson in December of that year, but it was edited (changed) again during the early months of 1939. The Big Book was printed the following April.? “So, “Bill’s Story” experienced almost a year of thoughtful changes—no wonderful it is so powerful!? ? These drafts tell us significant changes as “Bill’s Story” progressed. The Big Book Study Group of South New Jersey has produced a wonderful online illustration of the second draft with many interesting archival photos. Please download: ? ? Bob S ? Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, In? 47374 (765) 935-0130 ? ? -- Bob S
<Bill's Story first draft.pdf> <Bills Story second draft.pdf> <Origional Alcoholics Anonymous Manuscript.html>
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Re: Kicked out of Los Angeles AA!
I dont know if this photo is the original Letter. I would actually doubt it. ?This is the one on display at the archive a friend sent me. ?Its probably a copy like was mentioned in the article. ?But Morts spelling has intriged me. ?I assume it right on the letter and people assume its spelled the way its pronounced. ?I did. ?Bob you are awesome ty so much for all of your work and productions. ?You and Nancy O have contributed so much to accurately save out history. Tytyty Gene
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On May 1, 2020, at 11:20 AM, Bob S <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:
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Thanks for this photo of the original letter, also, for noticing the different spelling of Mortimer. Also, I understand the font of the copy I sent was not available in 1941. Thanks for this copy of the original I will save this for my archive records! ? Bob S * ? Thanks for posting that ive been wantting to read it. ?Here is a picture of the letter on display at the Los Angeles Archives. Notice how Morts name is spelled. Not Mortimer like in your picture. ?Ive always wondered why the discrepency. I would think the one at the archives where the event happened would be the correct spelling.? ? Many of us have read this story of how Irma Livoni was presented with the following letter. If you haven’t, I think you will find the attached article of great historic value, especially ?concerning Tradition Three. ? ? ? I have read several versions about Irma’s life after receiving this 1941 letter; most of them claimed she either died of alcoholism or committed suicide. NOT TRUE! Irma lived for 33 more years. She died, August 26, 1974. The author of this attached article has presented for us a well-researched bio if her life; yes it is long, but worth the candle, so to speak. ? Bob? S ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
--
Bob S
<More Irma Livoni Story.pdf>
-- Bob S
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Re: Kicked out of Los Angeles AA!
Thanks for this photo of the original letter, also, for noticing the different spelling of Mortimer. Also, I understand the font of the copy I sent was not available in 1941. Thanks for this copy of the original I will save this for my archive records! ? Bob S *
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, May 01, 2020 2:29 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Kicked out of Los Angeles AA! ? Thanks for posting that ive been wantting to read it. ?Here is a picture of the letter on display at the Los Angeles Archives. Notice how Morts name is spelled. Not Mortimer like in your picture. ?Ive always wondered why the discrepency. I would think the one at the archives where the event happened would be the correct spelling.? 
?
? Many of us have read this story of how Irma Livoni was presented with the following letter. If you haven’t, I think you will find the attached article of great historic value, especially ?concerning Tradition Three. ? ? ? I have read several versions about Irma’s life after receiving this 1941 letter; most of them claimed she either died of alcoholism or committed suicide. NOT TRUE! Irma lived for 33 more years. She died, August 26, 1974. The author of this attached article has presented for us a well-researched bio if her life; yes it is long, but worth the candle, so to speak. ? Bob? S ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
--
Bob S
<More Irma Livoni Story.pdf>
-- Bob S
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John & Linda Dunn
Bob S
Gene